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Is Chevy making a mistake with auto-only C8 ?

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Is Chevy making a mistake with auto-only C8 ?

 
Old 03-14-2019, 03:16 AM
  #261  
mammoth713
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Yes I think it would be a mistake, from the perspective of an EXPERIENCE driving the car. A mistake from a business case, no.

If the c8 did infact go auto only.. then I think it will play out exactly how it played out with Porsche.

They will bring back a manual transmission version after all the blowback from not having one, and then have an upcharge for it

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Old 03-14-2019, 05:13 AM
  #262  
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Originally Posted by tstad9i1 View Post
I am really hoping for a three pedals but realize it's wishful thinking at this point. But if Chevy is thinking enough or even some of the M7 group will be won over by the DCT, it would help of the dealers would allow test drives. Not one single dealership offered a test drive in their new C7s.

I thought of getting a C7 but had to go to carMax to drive a 3 year old stingray M7. As much as i wanted go buy a ZR1 or even a Z06, I couldnt convince myself to spend this kind of money on a new car that I can't test drive first. I've seen 1 2019 ZR1 in AZ and the most I could do was sit in it.

Its difficult to see if I'd like a corvette with a DCT if I can't even get a test drive in one. Waiting for a used one to show up at carMax makes it hard to stay interested.
Lots of us test drove new C7's at dealerships.
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Old 03-14-2019, 07:48 AM
  #263  
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Originally Posted by jcp911s View Post
I totally agree with you. That is why I have a '78 911 and a '71 C3 4 speed. I love driving classic cars.

But the question here is would you not buy a new C8 if it only had a DCT? There is no option. Either buy it or buy something else.

My guess is, most buyers on the fence will say..."gees, I rather have a manual, but I can live with the DCT"
It would depend upon what's available at the time. I can say I'll hold on to my 2018 C7 M7 as long as the car "behaves" nicely, or doesn't get damaged badly in an accident. Thus, I don't expect to be an early ME buyer. When it comes time for replacement, I'll survey my options.

Since I've already owned a couple of great DCTs, and one excellent TC paddle-shifter, I know what I'm dealing with. As I've said numerous times in this thread alone, I came back to a manual C7 because I was bored with them. It was a bit like a marriage. The honeymoon was great, but the marriage didn't last, and I filed for divorce.

Last edited by Foosh; 03-14-2019 at 07:53 AM.
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Old 03-14-2019, 08:40 AM
  #264  
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Originally Posted by sly1 View Post
Last summer I had my Porsche in for servicing. The best thing they did for me was to give me a Porsche with a PDK tranny as my loaner. I live about 45 minutes from the dealership. For the first 15 minutes I thought that the automated manual was fantastic, the next minutes it was OK, and for the last 15 minutes I put it in automatic mode and was down right bored. I couldn't wait to get my MT back. My fear is that if I took a short test drive, it's likely that I would have ordered my next car with that tranny.
Yep, and my counterpoint: I love my manuals (just bought another in fact), but with my nearly 100 mile roundtrip commute in some stop and go traffic, if I had a true alternative to the manual that I could stick in auto mode when I was mindlessly driving to work, and then still retained the shifting performance and ability to command the gears to a specific gear which I cannot get with a flappy paddle TC auto when I wanted spirited driving, that is a definite appeal.

But as many have surmised, it is all down to what brings you joy personally. I love my manuals when I am "driving" my car, but when I am simply piloting it over long distances of mundane driving, I personally have to admit I couldn't care less about rowing gears. Just like I don't care if I keep my foot on the gas pedal for every mile of a long highway commute, and let the cruise control take over that responsibility
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Old 03-14-2019, 04:00 PM
  #265  
Skid Row Joe
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Originally Posted by sly1 View Post
Last summer I had my Porsche in for servicing. The best thing they did for me was to give me a Porsche with a PDK tranny as my loaner. I live about 45 minutes from the dealership. For the first 15 minutes I thought that the automated manual was fantastic, the next minutes it was OK, and for the last 15 minutes I put it in automatic mode and was down right bored. I couldn't wait to get my MT back. My fear is that if I took a short test drive, it's likely that I would have ordered my next car with that tranny.
You realize the auto-euphoria new car test drive syndrome bullet that needs to be dodged.

..A sad story:
A longtime member here went to his Chevy store in his 14 or 15 C7 M7 in late '16 to look at the new in stock auto transmission Z06es on -$10,000.00 discount off MSRP
After a test drive - the guy went all goo goo, traded and brought one home. He later confessed on CF C7, he made a mistake buying the AT. Haven't seen the guy post in months now......

...

Last edited by Skid Row Joe; 03-14-2019 at 04:11 PM.
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Old 03-14-2019, 10:16 PM
  #266  
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If the only transmission is a DCT, that works for me just fine.
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Old 03-14-2019, 10:49 PM
  #267  
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Originally Posted by kozmic View Post
+1


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Old 03-14-2019, 10:51 PM
  #268  
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Originally Posted by mammoth713 View Post
Yes I think it would be a mistake, from the perspective of an EXPERIENCE driving the car. A mistake from a business case, no.

If the c8 did infact go auto only.. then I think it will play out exactly how it played out with Porsche.

They will bring back a manual transmission version after all the blowback from not having one, and then have an upcharge for it
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Old 03-15-2019, 03:33 AM
  #269  
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Yes.
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Old 03-15-2019, 08:40 AM
  #270  
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Sales of the new NSX have been a disaster. Likely for many reasons.

But, the successful previous version offered a MT and quickly offered a Targa. I wonder if things would have gone better if it at least offered a manual transmission. Although I have no idea how you would integrate a MT in a hybrid. I know if it had MT it would be on my short list of cars to consider as a next toy.
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Old 03-15-2019, 09:06 AM
  #271  
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Originally Posted by SCOTTCM View Post
Sales of the new NSX have been a disaster. Likely for many reasons.

But, the successful previous version offered a MT and quickly offered a Targa. I wonder if things would have gone better if it at least offered a manual transmission. Although I have no idea how you would integrate a MT in a hybrid. I know if it had MT it would be on my short list of cars to consider as a next toy.
It was a disaster because of the extremely long lead time (they completely changed the car mid-way) and it was so radically different than the original. The original was a light, pure, sports car. The new one, while very nice, is a AWE hybrid twin turbo technology showcase that costs a lot of money. I think it's a very nice car in that it's basically a McLaren P1 for 1/10th the cost that you can drive daily, but I guess the market didn't want that.
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Old 03-15-2019, 10:27 AM
  #272  
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I look at the "only auto" thing as a way to reduce the initial cost of the DCT, by spreading the cost to every single model, instead of having to split the cost between manuals and DCT's. They may release a manual version in the future, but the take rate of manuals over autos in total Corvettes sold is not really something to worry about, due to many people opting for manuals because of the hate of the "slush box autos". A DCT is a much more widely accepted transmission for performance cars than a torque converter auto so it will be interesting to see if GM even needs to release a manual to appease the diehards.

Plus, anyone who "needs" to row gears can buy a ZL1 1LE, and humiliate most cars on the road.
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Old 03-15-2019, 10:51 AM
  #273  
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Originally Posted by Supermassive View Post
I lo] A DCT is a much more widely accepted transmission for performance cars than a torque converter auto so it will be interesting to see if GM even needs to release a manual to appease the diehards.
In addition to no inefficient torque converter it has standard trans efficient spur gears and no multiple clutch packs for each gear. It doesn't need a rad a large to keep it cool! :yesnod)

Pic is from Detroit. Tremic may have been ready to show the Transaxle version IF they announced the C8. But this is the version that will be used in the Camaro. The C8 DCT will look similar with a dif added between the dual clutches and gear box. Note the efficient spur gears just like an M7.

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Old 03-15-2019, 10:58 AM
  #274  
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Originally Posted by Supermassive View Post
I look at the "only auto" thing as a way to reduce the initial cost of the DCT, by spreading the cost to every single model, instead of having to split the cost between manuals and DCT's. They may release a manual version in the future, but the take rate of manuals over autos in total Corvettes sold is not really something to worry about, due to many people opting for manuals because of the hate of the "slush box autos". A DCT is a much more widely accepted transmission for performance cars than a torque converter auto so it will be interesting to see if GM even needs to release a manual to appease the diehards.

Plus, anyone who "needs" to row gears can buy a ZL1 1LE, and humiliate most cars on the road.
True, but that won't appease the "diehards" by definition. It won't appease me and many others who have testified in this thread.
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Old 03-15-2019, 11:29 AM
  #275  
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Originally Posted by Foosh View Post
True, but that won't appease the "diehards" by definition. It won't appease me and many others who have testified in this thread.
That's the thing though, you fall into a minority, perhaps a minority that GM is willing to let make their own minds whether it is worth owning their new car in order to push the Corvette's performance envelope further. It is becoming next to impossible to find real sports cars with manual transmissions now, I think it is pretty much just Porsche and the Camaro/Mustang that remain viable choices for new cars. I'm not saying that its a good thing, its just how things are and GM may just decide that it is not worth the effort to de-engineer the C8 to accept a manual format for those that just won't budge on the issue.

As someone that has had a manual in every single car that I had owned up to the day I bought my C7, I honestly never missed it in my automatic C7, and when I had to sell it and reduce myself to a cheaper sports car with a back seat, I bought a '15 Mustang GG with the performance pack in a manual...and just never got back into the mindset that manuals are more fun. I am glad the C8 is offering a DCT because I fully intended to buy an auto on my next Corvette purchase because of how much I missed how my C7 felt to drive.

I'll have manuals in the future, but they will be late model cars, I really want a gated manual Mucielago...I know its a boat anchor, but my god that thing sings.
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Old 03-15-2019, 11:42 AM
  #276  
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Not offering a manual has nothing to do with pushing "the Corvette's performance envelope further." They obviously still do that with the ME platform and offering it with DCT. If they don't offer a manual as well, it would likely be because the bean counters concluded the additional cost won't be offset by the benefits, but they may have made the wrong decision as other manufacturers did. The benefit must have exceeded the cost in the case of C7, and that appears to still be the case with Porsche in the 911 and Boxster/Cayman, so it can clearly be done with the ME as well.

All personal preference, and I won't give you the "read entire thread" sermon, but it is clear that there is a substantial number who will not be satisfied. It's not for lack of experience. I've owned 2 DCTs, yes they are great, but I found them boring, and lacking "fun and involvement factors," which is the primary reason I came back to the C7 M7.

I am not unique. Yes, we are in the minority, but I think it is a sizable minority. Of the 23% who buy manuals, some will be OK with the DCT, but some will not. Even a 10% sales loss would be of concern and a loss of about 4K in annual sales initially. Many sports car manufacturers don't even sell that number in a year.

Lastly, as has been discussed many times in this thread, both BMW and Porsche received so much blow back when they dropped manuals a few years back, that they began offering them again. They obviously decided the benefit was greater than the cost.

I fully understand that the days of manuals are numbered, but when I no longer have a choice, I may very well choose something other than Corvette. As I said, I bought my C7s, because they were the best performance manuals on the market for the price. My latest thinking is that if I must accept a DCT automatic, it will be a 911 or something else.

In the interim, it will almost certainly lead me to holding on to my C7 for longer than I might have otherwise.

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Old 03-15-2019, 02:17 PM
  #277  
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One out of four new C7s is a manual transmission. That's a sizable chunk of new Corvette sales. Hardly a marginalized "minority," as some believe 23% is.
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Old 03-15-2019, 04:16 PM
  #278  
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Originally Posted by Skid Row Joe View Post
One out of four new C7s is a manual transmission. That's a sizable chunk of new Corvette sales. Hardly a marginalized "minority," as some believe 23% is.
Sure, but as it has been pointed out before, how many will truly shun buying a Corvette if A) no manual at all is offered, and B) how many of those 23% would have opted for a DCT over a manual had they been given the option? I don;t for a minute believe anywhere near 23% of buyers will walk away over the lack of a manual. I do believe some will, like Foosh, the question is how big exactly is that number? I am personally a manual lover who wouldn't be slighted by DCT, the handful I have driven have been more than acceptable to me.
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Old 03-15-2019, 04:24 PM
  #279  
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Originally Posted by Foosh View Post
Not offering a manual has nothing to do with pushing "the Corvette's performance envelope further."
It most certainly does!
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Old 03-15-2019, 05:49 PM
  #280  
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Originally Posted by Warp Factor View Post
It most certainly does!
Not if it is simply a choice of manual or DCT. That was my point. Clipping quotes really annoys me, because it takes everything out of context, changing the meaning completely.

Does offering a manual keep Porsche from advancing its performance envelope? No. That's what I thought.

Just as today, there are plenty of folks willing to opt for the "slower" car, which provides more enjoyment for their intended use. They are not trying to set lap records.

Originally Posted by jefnvk View Post
Sure, but as it has been pointed out before, how many will truly shun buying a Corvette if A) no manual at all is offered, and B) how many of those 23% would have opted for a DCT over a manual had they been given the option? I don;t for a minute believe anywhere near 23% of buyers will walk away over the lack of a manual. I do believe some will, like Foosh, the question is how big exactly is that number? I am personally a manual lover who wouldn't be slighted by DCT, the handful I have driven have been more than acceptable to me.
There are a lot of manual fans who will initially think the DCT is fine, maybe even preferable. I was one of those people some years ago when I went for a couple of DCTs. After a few years, I missed the manual, was overjoyed to have it again, and don't want to go back in my street sports car. As I said, I'd make a different decision for a track car.

I'm quite sure the same thing is going to happen to a lot of manual fans once they switch. It may take some time, but it will happen to many of them.

I've already been through that process and learned the expensive way. As long as I have a choice, I won't make the same mistake again.

Last edited by Foosh; 03-15-2019 at 06:08 PM.
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