Is Chevy making a mistake with auto-only C8 ?
03-09-2019, 12:41 PM
#141
Virtually every modern military jet (and actually most planes) use "fly by wire" technology. Effectively, the pilot's input goes into a computer, and the optimum configuration is controlled by that computer... there is no mechanical connection between the pilot's controls, and the control surfaces of the airplane.
So, I use a mechanical linkage to connect a foot pedal to a lever that disengages the clutch. The actual work is done by the mechanism at the driver requests.
Now, assume I connect the clutch pedal of a car to a cylinder that sends hydraulic pressure to a slave cylinder that actually disengages the clutch without a mechanical linkage.
Now assume that instead of a hydraulic cylinder, I use a relay under the pedal, and an electromechanical actuator.
Now assume that, instead of a foot pedal, I use a hand lever to activate that relay.
Now assume that, instead of a hand lever, I use input from the throttle position to activate that relay.
Now assume that the electromechanical actuator is located WITHIN the transmission housing.
Now assume that I give the driver the option to let the computer actuate the clutch based on multiple inputs.
"Manual" comes from "manus" or "hand. In fact losing the clutch "foot" pedal means loss of "pedual" transmission.... in a DCT, the paddles are still activated by the driver's hands, and thus still "manual"
Sheesh!
So, I use a mechanical linkage to connect a foot pedal to a lever that disengages the clutch. The actual work is done by the mechanism at the driver requests.
Now, assume I connect the clutch pedal of a car to a cylinder that sends hydraulic pressure to a slave cylinder that actually disengages the clutch without a mechanical linkage.
Now assume that instead of a hydraulic cylinder, I use a relay under the pedal, and an electromechanical actuator.
Now assume that, instead of a foot pedal, I use a hand lever to activate that relay.
Now assume that, instead of a hand lever, I use input from the throttle position to activate that relay.
Now assume that the electromechanical actuator is located WITHIN the transmission housing.
Now assume that I give the driver the option to let the computer actuate the clutch based on multiple inputs.
"Manual" comes from "manus" or "hand. In fact losing the clutch "foot" pedal means loss of "pedual" transmission.... in a DCT, the paddles are still activated by the driver's hands, and thus still "manual"
Sheesh!
03-09-2019, 01:06 PM
#142
Burning Brakes
All of the debate over the nuanced meaning(s) of specific words is just silly...
Simply put, the capablility/function being lost by going auto or DCT-only, is the direct, real-time, manipulation of clutch plate pressure (by the operator) and gear selection, including gear skipping if/where required. Historically, this is accomplished with a third pedal and a gear selection shift ****, mostly refered to as a “manual” or a “stick”. Some folks get enjoyment from this interaction whereas others don’t...
If the potential elimination of this capability doesn’t bother you, great, no sweat, enjoy what you enjoy... but I really wish some folks around here would stop trying to tell others that their opinions are not the right opinions... my gawd...
I’ve said it before, and I will say it again... if GM chooses to lose the functionality, they’ve also lost me.
Simply put, the capablility/function being lost by going auto or DCT-only, is the direct, real-time, manipulation of clutch plate pressure (by the operator) and gear selection, including gear skipping if/where required. Historically, this is accomplished with a third pedal and a gear selection shift ****, mostly refered to as a “manual” or a “stick”. Some folks get enjoyment from this interaction whereas others don’t...
If the potential elimination of this capability doesn’t bother you, great, no sweat, enjoy what you enjoy... but I really wish some folks around here would stop trying to tell others that their opinions are not the right opinions... my gawd...
I’ve said it before, and I will say it again... if GM chooses to lose the functionality, they’ve also lost me.
Last edited by kozmic; 03-09-2019 at 01:10 PM.
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03-09-2019, 01:15 PM
#143
Virtually every modern military jet (and actually most planes) use "fly by wire" technology. Effectively, the pilot's input goes into a computer, and the optimum configuration is controlled by that computer... there is no mechanical connection between the pilot's controls, and the control surfaces of the airplane.
So, I use a mechanical linkage to connect a foot pedal to a lever that disengages the clutch. The actual work is done by the mechanism at the driver requests.
Now, assume I connect the clutch pedal of a car to a cylinder that sends hydraulic pressure to a slave cylinder that actually disengages the clutch without a mechanical linkage.
Now assume that instead of a hydraulic cylinder, I use a relay under the pedal, and an electromechanical actuator.
Now assume that, instead of a foot pedal, I use a hand lever to activate that relay.
Now assume that, instead of a hand lever, I use input from the throttle position to activate that relay.
Now assume that the electromechanical actuator is located WITHIN the transmission housing.
Now assume that I give the driver the option to let the computer actuate the clutch based on multiple inputs.
"Manual" comes from "manus" or "hand. In fact losing the clutch "foot" pedal means loss of "pedual" transmission.... in a DCT, the paddles are still activated by the driver's hands, and thus still "manual"
Sheesh!
So, I use a mechanical linkage to connect a foot pedal to a lever that disengages the clutch. The actual work is done by the mechanism at the driver requests.
Now, assume I connect the clutch pedal of a car to a cylinder that sends hydraulic pressure to a slave cylinder that actually disengages the clutch without a mechanical linkage.
Now assume that instead of a hydraulic cylinder, I use a relay under the pedal, and an electromechanical actuator.
Now assume that, instead of a foot pedal, I use a hand lever to activate that relay.
Now assume that, instead of a hand lever, I use input from the throttle position to activate that relay.
Now assume that the electromechanical actuator is located WITHIN the transmission housing.
Now assume that I give the driver the option to let the computer actuate the clutch based on multiple inputs.
"Manual" comes from "manus" or "hand. In fact losing the clutch "foot" pedal means loss of "pedual" transmission.... in a DCT, the paddles are still activated by the driver's hands, and thus still "manual"
Sheesh!
Folks who've never driven, can't drive, or don't love traditional manuals will never understand this. No amount of explaining the feeling of more involvement and entertainment will get such folks there. Some newbies try it, and it opens a whole new world with some practice, while most others just are uncomfortable with it, don't want to master it, and they'd rather not be as involved. It is entirely an experiential thing and personal preference.
The other point you miss is that TC autos and DCTs have this position on the transmission selector called "D," which makes them full "automatics." That's the way the majority drive them. Obviously, there is no way of doing that on a traditional clutch pedal/ floor-shifter trannie, hence they are "manuals."
Last edited by Foosh; 03-09-2019 at 01:35 PM.
03-09-2019, 01:20 PM
#144
I'm not buying a Camaro, even if it is the only manual from Chevy. They're uglier than h#ll! Esp. the Dodge front ends. 
They're sorely lacking attractive design, and need to work on that first. As others have said here; I'll just keep driving my C7 M7, if C8s are only automatic transmission.
They're sorely lacking attractive design, and need to work on that first. As others have said here; I'll just keep driving my C7 M7, if C8s are only automatic transmission.
03-09-2019, 01:24 PM
#145
Race Director
First, a DCT is an automatic, not a manual.
Second, my completely un-educated guess - GM will not be including a manual in the C8. At least initially. There's a lot more engineering that is involved with doing this.
I love shifting and the rev match on my C7 was fantastic but there were so many times I found myself playing with the on/off for the rev match wishing it was a DCT. I hope GM does release a manual version eventually then it would be a coin flip as to which one I'll get.
Second, my completely un-educated guess - GM will not be including a manual in the C8. At least initially. There's a lot more engineering that is involved with doing this.
I love shifting and the rev match on my C7 was fantastic but there were so many times I found myself playing with the on/off for the rev match wishing it was a DCT. I hope GM does release a manual version eventually then it would be a coin flip as to which one I'll get.
03-09-2019, 01:38 PM
#146
Race Director
All true, but you miss the point. It's the coordination of foot and hand motion with the shifter that is fun. Now, you could replicate that same action w/ a "fly-by-wire" clutch pedal.
Folks who've never driven, can't drive, or don't love traditional manuals will never understand this. No amount of explaining the feeling of more involvement and entertainment will get such folks there. It is entirely an experiential thing and personal preference.
The other point you miss is that TC autos and DCTs have this position on the transmission selector called "D," which makes them full "automatics." That's the way the majority drive them. Obviously, there is no way of doing that on a traditional clutch pedal/ floor-shifter trannie, hence they are "manuals."
Folks who've never driven, can't drive, or don't love traditional manuals will never understand this. No amount of explaining the feeling of more involvement and entertainment will get such folks there. It is entirely an experiential thing and personal preference.
The other point you miss is that TC autos and DCTs have this position on the transmission selector called "D," which makes them full "automatics." That's the way the majority drive them. Obviously, there is no way of doing that on a traditional clutch pedal/ floor-shifter trannie, hence they are "manuals."
I have driven, can drive, and really enjoy my M7 -- my wife and I having owned nothing but manuals for 40 years. But, the DCT promises an experience that neither the slushbox (due to slushiness and less feel of mechanical connection) or the traditional manual (slow and can be a pain in traffic) provide. It is kind of a shame that you don't feel the excitement that this efficient and "relatively" involving hybrid tranny can provide -- but, if you have driven a proper DCT and still are not feeling it, then only a fool would argue with you...
Last edited by Rapid Fred; 03-09-2019 at 01:40 PM.
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Foosh (03-09-2019)
03-09-2019, 01:50 PM
#147
No, I totally get that, and I have experience with DCT in my former BMW M3, PDK, in Porsches, and ZF8 in both our Alfa and former Jaguar F-Type. It's really very simple for me, you can drive all of those as automatics, and I prefer the involvement and extra fun factor of driving my M7. Even in manual mode, paddles are too easy with simple finger flicks.
If you've ever driven the ZF8 in the F-Type or Alfa, perhaps even others, and compared it to a DCT car back to back, and no one told you which was which, I doubt 99% could detect any difference. That particular TC auto is that good. I agree the A8 does not give you that same feeling, which I think is one of the main reasons Corvette fans perceive the DCT as the holy grail.
I do appreciate how good they are, I do understand they are faster, and for track work, I would prefer them. However, I just love the manual experience in daily driving, even in stop-and-go traffic, and it's such a well-learned reflex, it's as natural as blinking.
If you've ever driven the ZF8 in the F-Type or Alfa, perhaps even others, and compared it to a DCT car back to back, and no one told you which was which, I doubt 99% could detect any difference. That particular TC auto is that good. I agree the A8 does not give you that same feeling, which I think is one of the main reasons Corvette fans perceive the DCT as the holy grail.
I do appreciate how good they are, I do understand they are faster, and for track work, I would prefer them. However, I just love the manual experience in daily driving, even in stop-and-go traffic, and it's such a well-learned reflex, it's as natural as blinking.
Last edited by Foosh; 03-09-2019 at 02:06 PM.
03-09-2019, 02:18 PM
#148
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Oct 2005
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Folks who've never driven, can't drive, or don't love traditional manuals will never understand this. No amount of explaining the feeling of more involvement and entertainment will get such folks there. Some newbies try it, and it opens a whole new world with some practice, while most others just are uncomfortable with it, don't want to master it, and they'd rather not be as involved. It is entirely an experiential thing and personal preference.
If you like much higher levels of operator involvement, maybe one of these would be be a good fit for you:
03-09-2019, 02:27 PM
#149
I do both. It's fun to try to be as good as ARM, but impossible to be that consistent. It does provide a sense of satisfaction when you nail it.
And, there is a limit to the types of involvement I enjoy. For example, I choose runflats because I do not enjoy fixing tires on the side of the road.
And, there is a limit to the types of involvement I enjoy. For example, I choose runflats because I do not enjoy fixing tires on the side of the road.
Last edited by Foosh; 03-09-2019 at 02:41 PM.
03-09-2019, 02:41 PM
#150
Tech Contributor
Member Since: Oct 1999
Location: Charlotte, NC (formerly Endicott, NY)
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The only differences between a manual transmission and a DCT are the DCT doesn't have a clutch and you use paddles to row through the gears Vs a stick on the column or through the floor board. Both transmissions are both direct drive transmissions with no fluid coupling between the engine and the transmission.
What difference is it if you use paddles to row through the gears Vs a stick? None. Gear changes are still accomplished through driver control and you still get to exhibit your driving skill or in some cases lack thereof.
True the DCT applies the clutch for you so you don't have to coordinate clutch operation any more but you get a neat advantage when eliminating human operation of the clutch, faster shifts and less chance of making downshift errors that result in ruined engines or in some cases crash damage. Or you can sit back when you choose and let the thing run on its own. Who among all of the manual transmission drivers have sat in a heavy traffic jam just wishing they could trade for some sort of auto trans as they crept along at a few mph. The leg does tend to get tired after an hour or so of that kind of stuff. Then you have the problem that sometimes the traffic jam is on an up hill section of road and you are waiting for the line to move several car lengths before moving your car so you don't have to use the clutch as much. That is when the guy in the next lane pulls in front of you and takes your space. Been there and done that on many of a multilane highway even out in the sticks where the only things alongside the road are pastures filled with curious cows.
That is why the DCT is going to be the go to transmission. It has the advantage of both an automatic and a manual transmission. People saying they want to pump on a clutch are just blowing smoke up their own butts.
Bill
What difference is it if you use paddles to row through the gears Vs a stick? None. Gear changes are still accomplished through driver control and you still get to exhibit your driving skill or in some cases lack thereof.
True the DCT applies the clutch for you so you don't have to coordinate clutch operation any more but you get a neat advantage when eliminating human operation of the clutch, faster shifts and less chance of making downshift errors that result in ruined engines or in some cases crash damage. Or you can sit back when you choose and let the thing run on its own. Who among all of the manual transmission drivers have sat in a heavy traffic jam just wishing they could trade for some sort of auto trans as they crept along at a few mph. The leg does tend to get tired after an hour or so of that kind of stuff. Then you have the problem that sometimes the traffic jam is on an up hill section of road and you are waiting for the line to move several car lengths before moving your car so you don't have to use the clutch as much. That is when the guy in the next lane pulls in front of you and takes your space. Been there and done that on many of a multilane highway even out in the sticks where the only things alongside the road are pastures filled with curious cows.
That is why the DCT is going to be the go to transmission. It has the advantage of both an automatic and a manual transmission. People saying they want to pump on a clutch are just blowing smoke up their own butts.
Bill
03-09-2019, 02:43 PM
#151
I've had several great paddle shifter performance cars (BMW, Porsche, Jaguar), and simply got bored with them. I was ecstatic to be back in a manual after an 8-year sabbatical with paddles, that was 4 years ago, and still am.
Sorry about your legs, but mine do not get tired in stop-and-go DC gridlock commuting in my M7 3-5 days a week in a 1+ hour commute each way. Because of the extremely heavy traffic each and every day, I probably shift 100s of times each way. It is a lot less difficult than slow walking, which doesn't tire me either. I don't even have to think about shifting, it's completely natural and easy.
I do agree that the ME will probably be DCT only.
Last edited by Foosh; 03-09-2019 at 03:11 PM.
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03-09-2019, 03:33 PM
#152
Burning Brakes
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If the C8 has no manual, I don't know where I go next. There's no reason I couldn't just keep my C7 for another 20 years I guess.
If the C8 is going to be nothing more than a cheap Ferrari (that also don't have manual transmissions anymore), why wouldn't I just buy a Ferrari?
If the C8 is going to be nothing more than a cheap Ferrari (that also don't have manual transmissions anymore), why wouldn't I just buy a Ferrari?
03-09-2019, 03:40 PM
#153
3rd Gear
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Virtually every modern military jet (and actually most planes) use "fly by wire" technology. Effectively, the pilot's input goes into a computer, and the optimum configuration is controlled by that computer... there is no mechanical connection between the pilot's controls, and the control surfaces of the airplane.
So, I use a mechanical linkage to connect a foot pedal to a lever that disengages the clutch. The actual work is done by the mechanism at the driver requests.
Now, assume I connect the clutch pedal of a car to a cylinder that sends hydraulic pressure to a slave cylinder that actually disengages the clutch without a mechanical linkage.
Now assume that instead of a hydraulic cylinder, I use a relay under the pedal, and an electromechanical actuator.
Now assume that, instead of a foot pedal, I use a hand lever to activate that relay.
Now assume that, instead of a hand lever, I use input from the throttle position to activate that relay.
Now assume that the electromechanical actuator is located WITHIN the transmission housing.
Now assume that I give the driver the option to let the computer actuate the clutch based on multiple inputs.
"Manual" comes from "manus" or "hand. In fact losing the clutch "foot" pedal means loss of "pedual" transmission.... in a DCT, the paddles are still activated by the driver's hands, and thus still "manual"
Sheesh!
So, I use a mechanical linkage to connect a foot pedal to a lever that disengages the clutch. The actual work is done by the mechanism at the driver requests.
Now, assume I connect the clutch pedal of a car to a cylinder that sends hydraulic pressure to a slave cylinder that actually disengages the clutch without a mechanical linkage.
Now assume that instead of a hydraulic cylinder, I use a relay under the pedal, and an electromechanical actuator.
Now assume that, instead of a foot pedal, I use a hand lever to activate that relay.
Now assume that, instead of a hand lever, I use input from the throttle position to activate that relay.
Now assume that the electromechanical actuator is located WITHIN the transmission housing.
Now assume that I give the driver the option to let the computer actuate the clutch based on multiple inputs.
"Manual" comes from "manus" or "hand. In fact losing the clutch "foot" pedal means loss of "pedual" transmission.... in a DCT, the paddles are still activated by the driver's hands, and thus still "manual"
Sheesh!
I think that covers just about every configuration out there.
So all cars are now considered "manuals".
LOL. "Sheesh" my left foot.
Last edited by ChuckC; 03-09-2019 at 03:46 PM.
03-09-2019, 03:47 PM
#155
^
Well said. I'd never spend that on a nearly daily driver, and I won't purchase any more vehicles that are just weekend toys.
Well said. I'd never spend that on a nearly daily driver, and I won't purchase any more vehicles that are just weekend toys.
03-09-2019, 03:50 PM
#156
3rd Gear
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So automatics with paddle shifters are now "manuals"?
03-09-2019, 03:51 PM
#157
Melting Slicks
As a current M7 Z51 owner here, I can tell you I will most likely look for something else if the C8 does not offer it. I have absolutely no desire for an automatic. I don't care if it's a DCT or not. It just isn't the same to me.
I will keep my C7 regardless, if it really is the last generation of Corvette with a manual.
I will keep my C7 regardless, if it really is the last generation of Corvette with a manual.
03-09-2019, 04:13 PM
#158
If the C8 has no manual, I don't know where I go next. There's no reason I couldn't just keep my C7 for another 20 years I guess.
If the C8 is going to be nothing more than a cheap Ferrari (that also don't have manual transmissions anymore), why wouldn't I just buy a Ferrari?
If the C8 is going to be nothing more than a cheap Ferrari (that also don't have manual transmissions anymore), why wouldn't I just buy a Ferrari?
..47 years ago, I drove (although very briefly) an M4, C3, 350c.i. '71 Corvette. The experience was simply magnetic to me, and at the time oh how I longed for an M4, base C3, 350. I never got one,, but I was hooked on the manual transmission Corvette experience - I still can recall driving that M4, to this day. 👍
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UsernameProtected (03-09-2019)
03-09-2019, 04:23 PM
#159
Bill Dearborn,
I would venture most of us don't live on the Track as perhaps you do. It doesn't matter how fast you can shift gears with your steering wheel mounted paddles. It's not about how fast gears shift to many of us who use our Corvettes as daily, basic transportation. It's about the enjoyment factor of driving our clutch pedal and shifter stick Corvettes everywhere. You're right for the automatic transmission. We're not you, and don't want to be that Corvette driver.
I would venture most of us don't live on the Track as perhaps you do. It doesn't matter how fast you can shift gears with your steering wheel mounted paddles. It's not about how fast gears shift to many of us who use our Corvettes as daily, basic transportation. It's about the enjoyment factor of driving our clutch pedal and shifter stick Corvettes everywhere. You're right for the automatic transmission. We're not you, and don't want to be that Corvette driver.
03-09-2019, 05:32 PM
#160
Racer
Truth is nobody knows what is happening. Speculation and worry about every possible component of the C8 abounds. Perhaps we will see a gated shifter manual option?LOL , pot stirred. Ahhh the online speculation. Bottom line, things advance. Many people are very resistant to change of any kind. Issues such as this have been debated from the dawn of time. You see members complaining over the years about 6&7 speed manuals being stupid, four speeds were enough for them. If all were heeded we would all be in two and theee speed cars, with drum brakes, carbs,bias ply tires, lever and cable actuated accessories and so on. Change does not usually kill things. Lack of advancement and change does. Just ask Kodak.