California Emissions Standards-Cost and Power
03-16-2019, 01:36 AM
#41
Like many others, you sound like you think this has something to do with air pollution. The only current CARB-EPA contention is over greenhouse gases, i.e., CAFE standards. Unfortunately, California has the upper hand due to an astonishing Supreme Court decision in 2007 referred to as Massachusetts vs. EPA (do a search), which found that the Clean Air Act includes vehicle fuel economy regulations. And of course, decades ago, due to smog not global warming, the Clean Air Act allowed California to set standards different from the rest of the country.
03-16-2019, 12:20 PM
#42
Melting Slicks
Like many others, you sound like you think this has something to do with air pollution. The only current CARB-EPA contention is over greenhouse gases, i.e., CAFE standards. Unfortunately, California has the upper hand due to an astonishing Supreme Court decision in 2007 referred to as Massachusetts vs. EPA (do a search), which found that the Clean Air Act includes vehicle fuel economy regulations. And of course, decades ago, due to smog not global warming, the Clean Air Act allowed California to set standards different from the rest of the country.
03-17-2019, 02:34 AM
#43
Race Director
03-17-2019, 04:57 PM
#44
Like many others, you sound like you think this has something to do with air pollution. The only current CARB-EPA contention is over greenhouse gases, i.e., CAFE standards. Unfortunately, California has the upper hand due to an astonishing Supreme Court decision in 2007 referred to as Massachusetts vs. EPA (do a search), which found that the Clean Air Act includes vehicle fuel economy regulations. And of course, decades ago, due to smog not global warming, the Clean Air Act allowed California to set standards different from the rest of the country.
03-17-2019, 06:04 PM
#45
Good point, but you're citing the current statute (Clean Air Act), which you say allowed CA to set its own standards. We were talking about if a new law were enacted to prohibit that. If the Clean Air Act were to be amended by Congress, rescinding that right, it sounds like that same Supreme Court precedent would suggest that would be constitutional. However, it would no doubt be tested again.
BTW, If things go as California prefers (i.e., separate CAFE requirements), this is the most likely way that manufactures will respond: They will manufacture and certify and sell the same vehicles in California as the rest of the US. But they will tweak prices and dealer allocations to accommodate California requirements (e.g., prices for Corvettes and Tahoes will be raised $3000, and prices for Bolts will be reduced $3000 in CA). Then manufacturers, dealers, CARB, and CA DMV will have big arguments about vehicles purchased outside CA and brought into CA.
03-17-2019, 11:07 PM
#47
Understood. I didn't realize anyone was seeking to amend the Clean Air Act.
BTW, If things go as California prefers (i.e., separate CAFE requirements), this is the most likely way that manufactures will respond: They will manufacture and certify and sell the same vehicles in California as the rest of the US. But they will tweak prices and dealer allocations to accommodate California requirements (e.g., prices for Corvettes and Tahoes will be raised $3000, and prices for Bolts will be reduced $3000 in CA). Then manufacturers, dealers, CARB, and CA DMV will have big arguments about vehicles purchased outside CA and brought into CA.
BTW, If things go as California prefers (i.e., separate CAFE requirements), this is the most likely way that manufactures will respond: They will manufacture and certify and sell the same vehicles in California as the rest of the US. But they will tweak prices and dealer allocations to accommodate California requirements (e.g., prices for Corvettes and Tahoes will be raised $3000, and prices for Bolts will be reduced $3000 in CA). Then manufacturers, dealers, CARB, and CA DMV will have big arguments about vehicles purchased outside CA and brought into CA.
Last edited by Foosh; 03-17-2019 at 11:12 PM.
03-20-2019, 11:26 AM
#48
Le Mans Master
Keep in mind that there are two completely different types of emissions being discussed here: "Criteria pollutants" like CO, NOx, and VOHCs (hydrocarbons) contribute to smog and some have proven health effects. CO2 "emissions" are greenhouse gases that presumably contribute to global warming, but they have nothing to do with smog. I don't think there is any disagreement between EPA and CARB about criteria pollutants. My understanding is that the disagreement is about CAFE standards, which are the main rule-making mechanism pertinent to automotive greenhouse gas emissions. EPA wants to level off the increasingly strict CAFE standards while CARB wants them to continue to be increasingly strict.
The above is fact as I understand it, but I'll be pleased to read factual corrections. Below is pure opinion:
Global warming (and EV and FCV) zealots love to mix up fuel economy standards and criteria pollutant standards. This enables them to leave the impression that any CAFE compromise will bring us back to 1950s LA smog make thousands of children suffer with asthma. Unknowing journalists buy this and write stuff about how the current administration wants to let automakers manufacture cars releasing dirty emissions. Since CAFE is the only contentious issue, these dirty emissions are the same ones emitted by trees.
The above is fact as I understand it, but I'll be pleased to read factual corrections. Below is pure opinion:
Global warming (and EV and FCV) zealots love to mix up fuel economy standards and criteria pollutant standards. This enables them to leave the impression that any CAFE compromise will bring us back to 1950s LA smog make thousands of children suffer with asthma. Unknowing journalists buy this and write stuff about how the current administration wants to let automakers manufacture cars releasing dirty emissions. Since CAFE is the only contentious issue, these dirty emissions are the same ones emitted by trees.
I'll go even further. This state long ago stopped caring about air pollution, and made pollution standards a war on capitalism. I can't tell you how many times one political party kept repeating to the media how CO2 caused asthma. This is a gas that is exhaled by humans.
Still don't believe me? This state voted in two propositions, the first in 1996 and later 2016, pushed by the same political party to legalize putting brain damaging THC from marijuana smoke in everyone's air. It's fine to pollute another person's living space such as apartment or house with THC. There are no rules at all against that at all. Lead in gasoline is bad, but THC is fine. Sure.
Anyone who thinks we will have a Corvette as we know it after California gets done with their CO2 brigade, think again. California did this in the 1970's, and by 1980 we ended up with a Corvette with a 305 with a whopping 180 horsepower from a station wagon, and no manual transmission. It was only until the emission standards essentially merged before we got a decent engine. I don't think everyone in the United States wants an electric Corvette, but that's the road we are on in California.
The bottom line is automakers are in business to sell cars and make money. It is too expensive to meet two completely different CO2 standards. Aren't cars expensive enough already?
If it gets too expensive, GM may just decide they won't sell the Corvette in California or other states with restrictive CO2 standards, because to meet the standards would require essentially a completely different car. As we have seen lately, GM is not opposed to cancelling cars and entire car divisions that don't make money.
Last edited by Michael A; 03-20-2019 at 11:47 AM.
03-20-2019, 12:03 PM
#49
Le Mans Master
I'm a strong advocate for GM to offer a turbo 4 cylinder hybrid Corvette in addition to a fire-breathing V8!
And send all those 4 cylinder hybrid models as the only option to California.
And send all those 4 cylinder hybrid models as the only option to California.
03-20-2019, 02:00 PM
#50
Melting Slicks
Thank you!
I'll go even further. This state long ago stopped caring about air pollution, and made pollution standards a war on capitalism. I can't tell you how many times one political party kept repeating to the media how CO2 caused asthma. This is a gas that is exhaled by humans.
Still don't believe me? This state voted in two propositions, the first in 1996 and later 2016, pushed by the same political party to legalize putting brain damaging THC from marijuana smoke in everyone's air. It's fine to pollute another person's living space such as apartment or house with THC. There are no rules at all against that at all. Lead in gasoline is bad, but THC is fine. Sure.
Anyone who thinks we will have a Corvette as we know it after California gets done with their CO2 brigade, think again. California did this in the 1970's, and by 1980 we ended up with a Corvette with a 305 with a whopping 180 horsepower from a station wagon, and no manual transmission. It was only until the emission standards essentially merged before we got a decent engine. I don't think everyone in the United States wants an electric Corvette, but that's the road we are on in California.
The bottom line is automakers are in business to sell cars and make money. It is too expensive to meet two completely different CO2 standards. Aren't cars expensive enough already?
If it gets too expensive, GM may just decide they won't sell the Corvette in California or other states with restrictive CO2 standards, because to meet the standards would require essentially a completely different car. As we have seen lately, GM is not opposed to cancelling cars and entire car divisions that don't make money.
I'll go even further. This state long ago stopped caring about air pollution, and made pollution standards a war on capitalism. I can't tell you how many times one political party kept repeating to the media how CO2 caused asthma. This is a gas that is exhaled by humans.
Still don't believe me? This state voted in two propositions, the first in 1996 and later 2016, pushed by the same political party to legalize putting brain damaging THC from marijuana smoke in everyone's air. It's fine to pollute another person's living space such as apartment or house with THC. There are no rules at all against that at all. Lead in gasoline is bad, but THC is fine. Sure.
Anyone who thinks we will have a Corvette as we know it after California gets done with their CO2 brigade, think again. California did this in the 1970's, and by 1980 we ended up with a Corvette with a 305 with a whopping 180 horsepower from a station wagon, and no manual transmission. It was only until the emission standards essentially merged before we got a decent engine. I don't think everyone in the United States wants an electric Corvette, but that's the road we are on in California.
The bottom line is automakers are in business to sell cars and make money. It is too expensive to meet two completely different CO2 standards. Aren't cars expensive enough already?
If it gets too expensive, GM may just decide they won't sell the Corvette in California or other states with restrictive CO2 standards, because to meet the standards would require essentially a completely different car. As we have seen lately, GM is not opposed to cancelling cars and entire car divisions that don't make money.
03-20-2019, 02:46 PM
#51
Melting Slicks
I would prefer a full BEV without the 4 cylinder - with performance like the Tesla new Roadster. Better yet, I am waiting for the Corvette powered by the flux capacitor.
03-20-2019, 09:46 PM
#52
Le Mans Master
Actually the "war" on pollution has been an economic boom. Not sure how that is a war on capitalism "green jobs" is the fastest growing creator of new jobs. Why do you think California has the 5th largest gdp in the world? Pollution is and was a real problem in California. Remember smog in LA in the 70's? As to smoking - seriously? California again has some of the most progressive regulations on restricting smoking anything in public. Not sure what you meant about someone's house? If someone wants to smoke in their own house are you saying California should make a law against. that? Although I am okay restricting smoking - anything - around kids.
Let' take the "5th largest economy" as an example. Divide California's GDP by the World Product, and it turns out it is only 3%. Big deal! The ruling party just wants everyone to think everything is going great, and "don't question what we are doing." In reality, things aren't going well. California has the highest poverty rate in the nation. California has one third of all welfare recipients in the nation, but only 11% of the population. California has 20% of all the homeless population. Half the children and one third of the adults are on Medicare. But everything is going great, because we are the fifth largest economy.
"green jobs" - If your economy is based on "green jobs" producing electricity that was already produced by other methods, how many people lost their jobs? That's never reported. Also what is never mentioned is that the green job category started near zero, so even a small change results in it being the fastest growing on a percentage growth basis, but not on a total employment number. You see how these statistics are spoon fed to people.
California is so "progressive" on limiting smoking, they thought it was a good idea to legalize another addicting smoking material, this time with a neurotoxin in it, which they know will through second hand smoke go into the lungs and brains of infants, children and the elderly. The stupidity never ends.
Watch out for your Corvette rims, because 60% of our urban roads are rated in poor condition, worst in the nation. And this is not even in a snow climate. Fail! The roads just get worse every year, and so do the bridges. The Reason Foundation reports that California is #1 in the most deficient bridges. That's comforting.. I hit a sink hole in LA a week ago, and I thought to myself, "I'm glad I was in my offroad worthy 4x4 with big balloon tires, because that would have taken out my wheels and my suspension on just about anything else." If California continues on this trajectory of neglecting the roads, it won't matter if you can buy a Corvette here due to global warming regulations, because the roads will be in such bad shape, you won't be able to drive it anyway.
Last edited by Michael A; 03-20-2019 at 11:00 PM.
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03-21-2019, 02:36 AM
#53
Melting Slicks
This is a prime example of how in California we are bombarded by propaganda from the ruling party and the media, that people start believing it. This is really surprising to me, given we all have loads of information at our finger tips on the web, where these statements can be investigated.
Let' take the "5th largest economy" as an example. Divide California's GDP by the World Product, and it turns out it is only 3%. Big deal! The ruling party just wants everyone to think everything is going great, and "don't question what we are doing." In reality, things aren't going well. California has the highest poverty rate in the nation. California has one third of all welfare recipients in the nation, but only 11% of the population. California has 20% of all the homeless population. Half the children and one third of the adults are on Medicare. But everything is going great, because we are the fifth largest economy.
"green jobs" - If your economy is based on "green jobs" producing electricity that was already produced by other methods, how many people lost their jobs? That's never reported. Also what is never mentioned is that the green job category started near zero, so even a small change results in it being the fastest growing on a percentage growth basis, but not on a total employment number. You see how these statistics are spoon fed to people.
California is so "progressive" on limiting smoking, they thought it was a good idea to legalize another addicting smoking material, this time with a neurotoxin in it, which they know will through second hand smoke go into the lungs and brains of infants, children and the elderly. The stupidity never ends.
Watch out for your Corvette rims, because 60% of our urban roads are rated in poor condition, worst in the nation. And this is not even in a snow climate. Fail! The roads just get worse every year, and so do the bridges. The Reason Foundation reports that California is #1 in the most deficient bridges. That's comforting.. I hit a sink hole in LA a week ago, and I thought to myself, "I'm glad I was in my offroad worthy 4x4 with big balloon tires, because that would have taken out my wheels and my suspension on just about anything else." If California continues on this trajectory of neglecting the roads, it won't matter if you can buy a Corvette here due to global warming regulations, because the roads will be in such bad shape, you won't be able to drive it anyway.
Let' take the "5th largest economy" as an example. Divide California's GDP by the World Product, and it turns out it is only 3%. Big deal! The ruling party just wants everyone to think everything is going great, and "don't question what we are doing." In reality, things aren't going well. California has the highest poverty rate in the nation. California has one third of all welfare recipients in the nation, but only 11% of the population. California has 20% of all the homeless population. Half the children and one third of the adults are on Medicare. But everything is going great, because we are the fifth largest economy.
"green jobs" - If your economy is based on "green jobs" producing electricity that was already produced by other methods, how many people lost their jobs? That's never reported. Also what is never mentioned is that the green job category started near zero, so even a small change results in it being the fastest growing on a percentage growth basis, but not on a total employment number. You see how these statistics are spoon fed to people.
California is so "progressive" on limiting smoking, they thought it was a good idea to legalize another addicting smoking material, this time with a neurotoxin in it, which they know will through second hand smoke go into the lungs and brains of infants, children and the elderly. The stupidity never ends.
Watch out for your Corvette rims, because 60% of our urban roads are rated in poor condition, worst in the nation. And this is not even in a snow climate. Fail! The roads just get worse every year, and so do the bridges. The Reason Foundation reports that California is #1 in the most deficient bridges. That's comforting.. I hit a sink hole in LA a week ago, and I thought to myself, "I'm glad I was in my offroad worthy 4x4 with big balloon tires, because that would have taken out my wheels and my suspension on just about anything else." If California continues on this trajectory of neglecting the roads, it won't matter if you can buy a Corvette here due to global warming regulations, because the roads will be in such bad shape, you won't be able to drive it anyway.
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-sta...ates-in-the-us
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money...vels/37799947/
And your claim about welfare is interesting especially as to what you consider to be "welfare". https://www.politifact.com/californi...welfare-s-exa/
Although with all your bashing of California I wonder why you would want to live there?
03-21-2019, 07:30 AM
#54
Le Mans Master
I used to sell Peterbilt trucks in California.
When the diesel emissions standards came out I was a pretty big loud mouth about fuel economy, reliability and government regulations. I was pretty shocked when 100% of my old redneck clientele was completely in favor of the emissions.
They always stated what it was like when they were a child in California and how bad the pollution was. So bad that as children they couldn't play outside and people would have terrible asthma attacks in their 50s if they worked outside.
As you look around at EPA regulations I hope that we are wise enough to not have to ruin our environment before we recognize how bad it really is to have a ruined environment.
People like to say that California are libtards, what they don't recognize is that Californians and their positions are just a reflection of their actual experiences. The people themselves aren't any different than others, they just have experienced a different set of circumstances.
When the diesel emissions standards came out I was a pretty big loud mouth about fuel economy, reliability and government regulations. I was pretty shocked when 100% of my old redneck clientele was completely in favor of the emissions.
They always stated what it was like when they were a child in California and how bad the pollution was. So bad that as children they couldn't play outside and people would have terrible asthma attacks in their 50s if they worked outside.
As you look around at EPA regulations I hope that we are wise enough to not have to ruin our environment before we recognize how bad it really is to have a ruined environment.
People like to say that California are libtards, what they don't recognize is that Californians and their positions are just a reflection of their actual experiences. The people themselves aren't any different than others, they just have experienced a different set of circumstances.
