Taking a logical stab at this electrical issue...
03-21-2019, 02:57 AM
#81
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
well, at least we had a good conversation instead of people who say "you;re wrong" with no explanation, one after another, and then others chime in and start talking about airplanes. Cant make this stuff up.
Thank you for the good chat. I edited the last post too, check it out again.
Thank you for the good chat. I edited the last post too, check it out again.
Last edited by Mikec7z; 03-21-2019 at 02:58 AM.
03-21-2019, 08:44 AM
#82
Le Mans Master
One other thing I just learned: the crew on the 2nd plane that crashed were scheduled to receive the updated training but hadn't. So they didn't know how to shut down the trim system.
So, bad design + Boeing initially saying no additional training was needed + not getting the training after things went south with Lion Air = 169 more people paying the price.
This engineering stuff can get serious at times.
Have a good one,
Mike
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jefnvk (03-21-2019)
03-21-2019, 09:53 AM
#83
Le Mans Master
Well this went long quick. Uh for the record, any vehicle I've driven I've tested removing the battery completely while running and it continues on fine. Granted some of them are now 10 years old but it did work so...
Anyway, it was mentioned that perhaps the 12v side was drained in conjunction with the 48v side. I can see that. That being said, engine management is more than likely on 12v and everything else is probably on 48v. Just makes sense that way imo (and appears to have been said).
I would now like to throw something new into the ring, GM F***ed up the ignition switches again.
For whatever reason that seems to be an ongoing issue for them. I know I've had new vehicles where they just randomly locked up and you couldn't turn the key. Granted these cars probably have push button... so maybe the fob pings an antenna on the 48v side and because the juice is low nothing?
Anyway, it was mentioned that perhaps the 12v side was drained in conjunction with the 48v side. I can see that. That being said, engine management is more than likely on 12v and everything else is probably on 48v. Just makes sense that way imo (and appears to have been said).
I would now like to throw something new into the ring, GM F***ed up the ignition switches again.
For whatever reason that seems to be an ongoing issue for them. I know I've had new vehicles where they just randomly locked up and you couldn't turn the key. Granted these cars probably have push button... so maybe the fob pings an antenna on the 48v side and because the juice is low nothing?
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Mikec7z (03-21-2019)
03-21-2019, 12:05 PM
#84
Melting Slicks
Well this went long quick. Uh for the record, any vehicle I've driven I've tested removing the battery completely while running and it continues on fine. Granted some of them are now 10 years old but it did work so...
Anyway, it was mentioned that perhaps the 12v side was drained in conjunction with the 48v side. I can see that. That being said, engine management is more than likely on 12v and everything else is probably on 48v. Just makes sense that way imo (and appears to have been said).
Anyway, it was mentioned that perhaps the 12v side was drained in conjunction with the 48v side. I can see that. That being said, engine management is more than likely on 12v and everything else is probably on 48v. Just makes sense that way imo (and appears to have been said).
03-21-2019, 05:17 PM
#85
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Granted these cars probably have push button... so maybe the fob pings an antenna on the 48v side and because the juice is low nothing?
That's why i feel like GM could have easily overlooked the reality that if the 48v side is too low, it will create a problem... they all assumed the 12v side could be jumped and away the car would go. I don't think that is the case... on these test cars anyway.
They will just have to switch certain components back to the 12v side if this is indeed what the problem is on the test cars. Time will tell... and that's assuming GM ever admits what the problem actually was, and tells the truth.
its not to their benefit to disclose a prior known weakness, as then the public will test that weakness over and over to see if it is fixed, and/or check if any compromises were made as it was fixed in a hurry by GM to meet reveal/production deadlines.
Last edited by Mikec7z; 03-21-2019 at 05:20 PM.
03-21-2019, 08:34 PM
#86
Melting Slicks
Exactly, the possibility of gizmo's that are needed for the car to start, that are powered by the 48v side, are numerous.
That's why i feel like GM could have easily overlooked the reality that if the 48v side is too low, it will create a problem... they all assumed the 12v side could be jumped and away the car would go. I don't think that is the case... on these test cars anyway.
They will just have to switch certain components back to the 12v side if this is indeed what the problem is on the test cars. Time will tell... and that's assuming GM ever admits what the problem actually was, and tells the truth.
its not to their benefit to disclose a prior known weakness, as then the public will test that weakness over and over to see if it is fixed, and/or check if any compromises were made as it was fixed in a hurry by GM to meet reveal/production deadlines.
That's why i feel like GM could have easily overlooked the reality that if the 48v side is too low, it will create a problem... they all assumed the 12v side could be jumped and away the car would go. I don't think that is the case... on these test cars anyway.
They will just have to switch certain components back to the 12v side if this is indeed what the problem is on the test cars. Time will tell... and that's assuming GM ever admits what the problem actually was, and tells the truth.
its not to their benefit to disclose a prior known weakness, as then the public will test that weakness over and over to see if it is fixed, and/or check if any compromises were made as it was fixed in a hurry by GM to meet reveal/production deadlines.
It's far more likely to be reliability of a DC/DC converter box, wonky various modules on the 12v that talk to each other, or something stupid like faulty 12v battery or 12v alternator...
Power converters and stuff like that usually are a weak link in electrical reliability of a system... (Generally speaking)
I think you're really drawing wild conclusions...
Also, GM does not give me the impression they rush to release products, it seems if there is a major problem, they push out a major release. (Unlike FCA). I could see FCA having some huge miss on some issue like what you're describing tho lol... Go read jeep forums
Last edited by mammoth713; 03-21-2019 at 08:37 PM.
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Mikec7z (03-21-2019)
03-21-2019, 08:54 PM
#87
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
okay, so assuming you are right... how can we tie this to a gas station fillup then, because that is the common denominator.
The cars have to be shut off other places around town... at lunch spots, at times when they all pull over together when they are in their big groups....
lets solve why it happened 2 for 2 at gas pumps. Low fuel... or the surrounding scenarios that accompany a car that is out of gas... perhaps it was on for 2 or 3 hours straight... so how does that play into what you are saying?
... and the bigger puzzle... why didnt GM find it at their test sites first, and why would they send cars out into the real world if they knew the cars had this problem... without fixing it first?
The cars have to be shut off other places around town... at lunch spots, at times when they all pull over together when they are in their big groups....
lets solve why it happened 2 for 2 at gas pumps. Low fuel... or the surrounding scenarios that accompany a car that is out of gas... perhaps it was on for 2 or 3 hours straight... so how does that play into what you are saying?
... and the bigger puzzle... why didnt GM find it at their test sites first, and why would they send cars out into the real world if they knew the cars had this problem... without fixing it first?
Last edited by Mikec7z; 03-22-2019 at 01:17 AM.
03-21-2019, 09:05 PM
#88
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
also, throwing out another angle to my point... (and the reason i continue to have my pov is because IF the 12v system were the problem, THEN the jumper cables would have solved the problem)
so... lets go with what you said... the antennas. Lets say the antennas and the software to help them understand what signals they are are receiving, lets say that software happens to be in a computer/controller/etc, and it is connected to the 48v network, or it is connected to other devices that are part of this 48v network, and part of making the car start is for the car to "sense" all of these modules and controllers, etc, etc, are all online prior to starting, because GM wants to make sure there are not middleman hacking devices hypothetically inserted into the new global b can system
(again, they are worried about hackers taking over their autonomous cars, so they are trying to create a bullet proof system)
What happens when the engineers accidentally linked something, to something else in the software and network programming, and the 48v being low is detrimental for the car to start without those communications happening as hoped?
Again, if the 12v side being low was the problem, jumper cables would fix it. My gut says the 48v side is low, and in being such, something is screwed up at initial ignition unlock. (keep in mind, you might be able to start your car with your phone soon, and all of that would likely be tied into the gm global b can system... and some of that has to be running on 48 v... otherwise, why go to a 48v system in the first place?
so... lets go with what you said... the antennas. Lets say the antennas and the software to help them understand what signals they are are receiving, lets say that software happens to be in a computer/controller/etc, and it is connected to the 48v network, or it is connected to other devices that are part of this 48v network, and part of making the car start is for the car to "sense" all of these modules and controllers, etc, etc, are all online prior to starting, because GM wants to make sure there are not middleman hacking devices hypothetically inserted into the new global b can system
(again, they are worried about hackers taking over their autonomous cars, so they are trying to create a bullet proof system)
What happens when the engineers accidentally linked something, to something else in the software and network programming, and the 48v being low is detrimental for the car to start without those communications happening as hoped?
Again, if the 12v side being low was the problem, jumper cables would fix it. My gut says the 48v side is low, and in being such, something is screwed up at initial ignition unlock. (keep in mind, you might be able to start your car with your phone soon, and all of that would likely be tied into the gm global b can system... and some of that has to be running on 48 v... otherwise, why go to a 48v system in the first place?
03-21-2019, 09:25 PM
#89
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
and i guess that is the best question right now... you seem to imply everything is going to be running on the 12v system.
Fact is, GM has a 48v system in the car, its been leaked i thought at this point, maybe im wrong... but if there is a 48v system in the car, and the car is pure ICE, no electric motors, then please, help me understand, what could possibly use the 48v, and prove to me that short list of things, is worth GM going to a 48v system.... for just those few things.
you see what im saying?
Fact is, GM has a 48v system in the car, its been leaked i thought at this point, maybe im wrong... but if there is a 48v system in the car, and the car is pure ICE, no electric motors, then please, help me understand, what could possibly use the 48v, and prove to me that short list of things, is worth GM going to a 48v system.... for just those few things.
you see what im saying?
03-21-2019, 09:28 PM
#90
New Battery..$425.00
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Mikec7z (03-21-2019)
03-21-2019, 10:02 PM
#91
Le Mans Master
and i guess that is the best question right now... you seem to imply everything is going to be running on the 12v system.
Fact is, GM has a 48v system in the car, its been leaked i thought at this point, maybe im wrong... but if there is a 48v system in the car, and the car is pure ICE, no electric motors, then please, help me understand, what could possibly use the 48v, and prove to me that short list of things, is worth GM going to a 48v system.... for just those few things.
you see what im saying?
Fact is, GM has a 48v system in the car, its been leaked i thought at this point, maybe im wrong... but if there is a 48v system in the car, and the car is pure ICE, no electric motors, then please, help me understand, what could possibly use the 48v, and prove to me that short list of things, is worth GM going to a 48v system.... for just those few things.
you see what im saying?
03-21-2019, 11:17 PM
#92
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
i dont blindly agree with him that the 12v system will run all the electronics in the car in its new Global B Can network of sensors and encryption that all communicate with each other.
If the 12v system did all of that, then why even have a 48v system in the car at all?
So, while he is telling me im wrong, rather than just spit back at him "no, youre wrong", im trying to keep a logical discussion going until either he agrees with me, or I agree with him, and right now he and I have not reached that point obviously... but I do believe he is intelligent and i do believe 2 minds are better than 1, so im not against him per se, im simply against ideas that I dont find logical.
To say nothing on the 48v system (should the car have one, which many have said it does) is needed to respond properly for the car to start up happy, i think is a bit far fetched. I personally could see GM anticipating that the 48v side will always be charged due to the alternator always charging it, and the 48v side is not needed to turn over the engine or run the headlights or taillights, so there is no logical reason it should ever go dead... in their first plans for the car.
But then... things evolved, and things changed, and now they have a pickle because there are potentially scenarios where the alternator does not charge the 48v side while the car is being driven.
Or lets say he is right, a power transformer has gone bad... okay... but the 48v side not being charged is still the problem, or else jumper cables on the 12v side should start the car.
If the 12v system did all of that, then why even have a 48v system in the car at all?
So, while he is telling me im wrong, rather than just spit back at him "no, youre wrong", im trying to keep a logical discussion going until either he agrees with me, or I agree with him, and right now he and I have not reached that point obviously... but I do believe he is intelligent and i do believe 2 minds are better than 1, so im not against him per se, im simply against ideas that I dont find logical.
To say nothing on the 48v system (should the car have one, which many have said it does) is needed to respond properly for the car to start up happy, i think is a bit far fetched. I personally could see GM anticipating that the 48v side will always be charged due to the alternator always charging it, and the 48v side is not needed to turn over the engine or run the headlights or taillights, so there is no logical reason it should ever go dead... in their first plans for the car.
But then... things evolved, and things changed, and now they have a pickle because there are potentially scenarios where the alternator does not charge the 48v side while the car is being driven.
Or lets say he is right, a power transformer has gone bad... okay... but the 48v side not being charged is still the problem, or else jumper cables on the 12v side should start the car.
Last edited by Mikec7z; 03-21-2019 at 11:27 PM.
03-22-2019, 02:41 AM
#93
Melting Slicks
i dont blindly agree with him that the 12v system will run all the electronics in the car in its new Global B Can network of sensors and encryption that all communicate with each other.
If the 12v system did all of that, then why even have a 48v system in the car at all?
So, while he is telling me im wrong, rather than just spit back at him "no, youre wrong", im trying to keep a logical discussion going until either he agrees with me, or I agree with him, and right now he and I have not reached that point obviously... but I do believe he is intelligent and i do believe 2 minds are better than 1, so im not against him per se, im simply against ideas that I dont find logical.
To say nothing on the 48v system (should the car have one, which many have said it does) is needed to respond properly for the car to start up happy, i think is a bit far fetched. I personally could see GM anticipating that the 48v side will always be charged due to the alternator always charging it, and the 48v side is not needed to turn over the engine or run the headlights or taillights, so there is no logical reason it should ever go dead... in their first plans for the car.
But then... things evolved, and things changed, and now they have a pickle because there are potentially scenarios where the alternator does not charge the 48v side while the car is being driven.
Or lets say he is right, a power transformer has gone bad... okay... but the 48v side not being charged is still the problem, or else jumper cables on the 12v side should start the car.
If the 12v system did all of that, then why even have a 48v system in the car at all?
So, while he is telling me im wrong, rather than just spit back at him "no, youre wrong", im trying to keep a logical discussion going until either he agrees with me, or I agree with him, and right now he and I have not reached that point obviously... but I do believe he is intelligent and i do believe 2 minds are better than 1, so im not against him per se, im simply against ideas that I dont find logical.
To say nothing on the 48v system (should the car have one, which many have said it does) is needed to respond properly for the car to start up happy, i think is a bit far fetched. I personally could see GM anticipating that the 48v side will always be charged due to the alternator always charging it, and the 48v side is not needed to turn over the engine or run the headlights or taillights, so there is no logical reason it should ever go dead... in their first plans for the car.
But then... things evolved, and things changed, and now they have a pickle because there are potentially scenarios where the alternator does not charge the 48v side while the car is being driven.
Or lets say he is right, a power transformer has gone bad... okay... but the 48v side not being charged is still the problem, or else jumper cables on the 12v side should start the car.
you keep mentioning jumper cables.. there was evidence the tow truck driver tried jumping it w/ 12v jumper cables?
If yes, then that would tell me there is still a 12v component to the corvette's electrical system, given it's a GM employed tow truck driver...
yes?
03-22-2019, 02:55 AM
#94
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
https://www.corvetteblogger.com/2018...trical-system/
https://jalopnik.com/heres-the-mid-e...gas-1833296525
There are the consensuses on what happened.
It says that multiple GM engineers worked to try to get the car started for over half an hour.
When multiple GM engineers tried on the first car, they used cables.
We don't know on the second car, as people were lame at taking videos or pictures of them attempting to fix it.
We do know that both cars died AT THE PUMP.
I dont think the tow trick driver did anything more than hook up to the car and take it home. If engineers cant get it started, he is probably ordered not to waste his time.
Im not doubting that there is not a 12v system, im doubting that the 48v system runs as few components as you would like to pretend. It makes no logical sense to impliment a 48v system into the car, and not use that system to run the new global b can system with that 48v system.... imo.
https://jalopnik.com/heres-the-mid-e...gas-1833296525
There are the consensuses on what happened.
It says that multiple GM engineers worked to try to get the car started for over half an hour.
When multiple GM engineers tried on the first car, they used cables.
We don't know on the second car, as people were lame at taking videos or pictures of them attempting to fix it.
We do know that both cars died AT THE PUMP.
I dont think the tow trick driver did anything more than hook up to the car and take it home. If engineers cant get it started, he is probably ordered not to waste his time.
Im not doubting that there is not a 12v system, im doubting that the 48v system runs as few components as you would like to pretend. It makes no logical sense to impliment a 48v system into the car, and not use that system to run the new global b can system with that 48v system.... imo.
Last edited by Mikec7z; 03-22-2019 at 02:56 AM.
03-22-2019, 03:40 AM
#95
Melting Slicks
https://www.corvetteblogger.com/2018...trical-system/
https://jalopnik.com/heres-the-mid-e...gas-1833296525
There are the consensuses on what happened.
It says that multiple GM engineers worked to try to get the car started for over half an hour.
When multiple GM engineers tried on the first car, they used cables.
We don't know on the second car, as people were lame at taking videos or pictures of them attempting to fix it.
We do know that both cars died AT THE PUMP.
I dont think the tow trick driver did anything more than hook up to the car and take it home. If engineers cant get it started, he is probably ordered not to waste his time.
Im not doubting that there is not a 12v system, im doubting that the 48v system runs as few components as you would like to pretend. It makes no logical sense to impliment a 48v system into the car, and not use that system to run the new global b can system with that 48v system.... imo.
https://jalopnik.com/heres-the-mid-e...gas-1833296525
There are the consensuses on what happened.
It says that multiple GM engineers worked to try to get the car started for over half an hour.
When multiple GM engineers tried on the first car, they used cables.
We don't know on the second car, as people were lame at taking videos or pictures of them attempting to fix it.
We do know that both cars died AT THE PUMP.
I dont think the tow trick driver did anything more than hook up to the car and take it home. If engineers cant get it started, he is probably ordered not to waste his time.
Im not doubting that there is not a 12v system, im doubting that the 48v system runs as few components as you would like to pretend. It makes no logical sense to impliment a 48v system into the car, and not use that system to run the new global b can system with that 48v system.... imo.
To address your one comment tho about both mules dying at gas stations.. Apparently the jeep wrangler has an issue with it's setup where it has the 2 12v batteries (where if both die, you might have trouble starting the car). 1 is for starting the car, and 1 is an auxiliary batt for when the car shuts off @ a stop light.. Let's say the aux battery is low on charge, and doesnt take a charge that great (is old or defective), it will slowly drain the main 12v battery (because they are essentially wired in parallel with eachother under nominal driving conditions, or atleast w/ the jeep configuration). And then both batteries will be dead. In this theoretical example, they could have been driving the c8 on the alternator power w/ a weak set of 12v batteries and then once the car is shut off, there is not enough juice to turn over the motor.
for a 48v system, similar to what I said above, but you'd need a DC/DC converter/control box between the 48v battery and the 12v battery.. but a similar thing could probably happen where there are parasitic draws that lower the 12v battery to where it cant turn over the car once the car is stopped.
This is a graphic I found on the jeep wrangler forum.. idk. Maybe the c8 electrical system will be similar to this----->
Notice the components the graphic lists under 12v vs 48v line voltages..
Last edited by mammoth713; 03-22-2019 at 03:47 AM.
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Mikec7z (03-22-2019)
03-22-2019, 03:46 AM
#96
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
off topic, but i still think its amazing that the auto manufacturers all made hybrid diesels off limits and the masses smiled and said, "thats okay, i like paying twice as much for fuel and having half as much torque". They would get 120mpg with no issue...
And Boeings wreck...
Alright, back on topic
And Boeings wreck...
Alright, back on topic
Last edited by Mikec7z; 03-22-2019 at 03:46 AM.
03-22-2019, 03:52 AM
#97
Melting Slicks
BTW - the more I thought about it, and after the more I read about the new JL wrangler... I think the new corvette is ATLEAST going to have the stop/start system w/ the 2 12v batteries like the wrangler... Since they will likely have the base model have the v8 and need the slightly better mpg for whatever regulations
So, with that said... I could see
base model: 2x 12v batteries + N/A V8 (with the stop/start)
upgraded model: twin turbo + some kind of mild hybrid 48v setup with maybe the front wheels have electric motors?
idk
There was spy footage from a while ago of one of the mules taking off away from the camera man, but fairly close, and I swore I heard a faint electric motor sound from the mule.. but obviously it's hard to tell from footage like that
So, with that said... I could see
base model: 2x 12v batteries + N/A V8 (with the stop/start)
upgraded model: twin turbo + some kind of mild hybrid 48v setup with maybe the front wheels have electric motors?
idk
There was spy footage from a while ago of one of the mules taking off away from the camera man, but fairly close, and I swore I heard a faint electric motor sound from the mule.. but obviously it's hard to tell from footage like that
Last edited by mammoth713; 03-22-2019 at 03:55 AM.
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Mikec7z (03-22-2019)
03-22-2019, 04:02 AM
#98
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
theres an electric fwd system coming, thats a given at this point. Its been confirmed by many insiders in respected interviews. Even the Aria (family previously involved with corvette design) they spilled the beans that an lt5 or turbo like power plant in the back and EV motors in the front.
its going to happen, no question.
What i dont think people realize yet is, porsche has a carerra 4 and a 4s and then the turbo.
Why wouldn't GM do the same? People want AWD... and current vettes suck in the snow and rain. If i can have AWD, vette becomes more practical (and mpg and fuel tank range increases)
so, onto your 2 12v batteries... you are saying they run them in series and make 24v maybe that way for certain things? thats cool. I guess 4 batteries could get us to 48v... but i guess 24v is better than 12 at least. That would fix our fuel pump issues
its going to happen, no question.
What i dont think people realize yet is, porsche has a carerra 4 and a 4s and then the turbo.
Why wouldn't GM do the same? People want AWD... and current vettes suck in the snow and rain. If i can have AWD, vette becomes more practical (and mpg and fuel tank range increases)
so, onto your 2 12v batteries... you are saying they run them in series and make 24v maybe that way for certain things? thats cool. I guess 4 batteries could get us to 48v... but i guess 24v is better than 12 at least. That would fix our fuel pump issues
03-22-2019, 04:10 AM
#99
Melting Slicks
theres an electric fwd system coming, thats a given at this point. Its been confirmed by many insiders in respected interviews. Even the Aria (family previously involved with corvette design) they spilled the beans that an lt5 or turbo like power plant in the back and EV motors in the front.
its going to happen, no question.
What i dont think people realize yet is, porsche has a carerra 4 and a 4s and then the turbo.
Why wouldn't GM do the same? People want AWD... and current vettes suck in the snow and rain. If i can have AWD, vette becomes more practical (and mpg and fuel tank range increases)
so, onto your 2 12v batteries... you are saying they run them in series and make 24v maybe that way for certain things? thats cool. I guess 4 batteries could get us to 48v... but i guess 24v is better than 12 at least. That would fix our fuel pump issues
its going to happen, no question.
What i dont think people realize yet is, porsche has a carerra 4 and a 4s and then the turbo.
Why wouldn't GM do the same? People want AWD... and current vettes suck in the snow and rain. If i can have AWD, vette becomes more practical (and mpg and fuel tank range increases)
so, onto your 2 12v batteries... you are saying they run them in series and make 24v maybe that way for certain things? thats cool. I guess 4 batteries could get us to 48v... but i guess 24v is better than 12 at least. That would fix our fuel pump issues
I will post a picture tomorrow if I get a chance
Last edited by mammoth713; 03-22-2019 at 04:12 AM.
03-22-2019, 10:17 AM
#100
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
what im saying is, if GM is running a higher voltage system in the car, they could likely accomplish doing so by having a separate circuit, where multiple 12v batteries are ran in series.
This would explain why the people are still trying to use the 12v cables to jump the car... and also explain why GM does not have a 24 or 48v jump box in each car for the folks to use when the cars die.
But your idea of 2 12v batteries would/could explain the problem, if GM does not have it where the 2nd battery can easily be jumped... and it is the one that is the problem for restart, then i would buy that as a feasible situation that aligns with what is going on.
This would explain why the people are still trying to use the 12v cables to jump the car... and also explain why GM does not have a 24 or 48v jump box in each car for the folks to use when the cars die.
But your idea of 2 12v batteries would/could explain the problem, if GM does not have it where the 2nd battery can easily be jumped... and it is the one that is the problem for restart, then i would buy that as a feasible situation that aligns with what is going on.