What I think the ME should be in the GM lineup
#1
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Where I think the ME should have been in the GM lineup
I have some friends on the inside, and from what I hear, and what I think, here is my 20/20 hindsight on what GM should have done with the ME. Perhaps it was not possible to do what im about to suggest they should have done, perhaps Tadge was stuck where GM would only allow him to make 1 car, and not both an FE and ME simultaneously. But here is what I do believe is accurate from this point forward.
First thing everyone needs to understand is, Tadge has made it very clear that he has a vendatta against FE corvettes, and I think he needs to be put in check for a bit, and realize, the ME is going to make it and is here to stay at this point. He can let go of the idea of trying to trash the FE, and start letting the FE become all that it can become moving forward. All the tooling exists to make it, it just needs a new body refresh, interior refresh, and engine refresh. Not difficult to do.
I believe he is embarrassed though, because behind the scenes, he made a case that it cant be progressed any further and was a dead end. So he has an ego motive to save face. I have heard this from my friends on the inside. He hates the FE, meanwhile there are those that want it to continue. Time will tell what they do, and if he can grow up and relax that the ME is reality now, so no need to destroy the FE's character from this point forward.
I believe GM would have been much better off as a brand had the ME vette been named something else, not needed to carry golf clubs, and like the Ford GT, had huge aero pass throughs, and been space age looking... and the FE remained for the people who needed something more practical and traditional. Then if GM wanted to introduce a practical ME like mclaren is now doing, and do that down the road as yet a 3rd model, and have it in the same name category of the ME space age car... that would be the proper way to brand an icon, and take GM and Chevy up a notch on the global stage.
But they aren't that smart apparently (if most people here are indeed correct that this is the end of the FE). Everyone thinks it has to be just "one perfect car" for everyone everywhere. Reminds me of a 4 year old girl enthusiastically explaining her new barbie she knows santa is going to bring her.
No such thing as perfection, this universe does not allow for such an idea. Always tradeoffs, which demands the necessity for variety. Porsche has variety. Ferrari does. Lambo does. Mclaren does. Aston Martin does. Corvette does not.
Corvette needs to be a brand with sub models or GM should have at least put the corvette and camaro team in charge of a new ME car and called it something else.
This "one perfect car" idea gets old listening to from the 4 year olds who still believe in magic.
GM lost sight of a simple goal... if I want to have the fastest front engine car, a wide body FE vette is the perfect foundation to start my project... has been for as long as ive been driving since the C5 in 1997. Superior to viper or any ferarri, the vette is THE car to start from on a pure numbers and capability standpoint, and send off to Lingenfelter etc, (or progress to where you can do it yourself after you've bought and modified enough of these things
If I want the fastest ME car, the c8 wont be it... it lacks the aero pass throughs, and lacks the sleek rear end to reduce drag. The ford GT is the superior platform to start from. Other ME cars will also continue to be the superior platform to start from, the tiny lambos with the sleek rear ends and the mclarens etc. Aero is aero, its not magic. The shape of the rear of the c8 is large and sqaure, it will have a larger rear aero drag than the other cars listed above.
I think GM should have targeted the ford GT and one upped Ford, and made THAT car mass produced and affordable. A ford GT vs lambo vs "wasp" shaped car that starts at 80 grand and only has the front trunk area... and a refresh of the c7 FE car with a new body and a new interior and taken up a notch in class and comfort, and the new engine for 2020 in both models....
GM would have been on a new level.
The c8 does not take them to that new level. I dont care whats under the camo, i can see from the cad images, they did not aspire to be THE ME car to buy if one wants to destroy the competition on a race track. They were worried about golf clubs and luggage. And the reason they were worried about golf clubs is because Tadge said the FE needs to be killed. Instead of targeting 2 markets they are targeting 1. They have not yet targeted the market of people who have another car in their garage, and want to buy the fastest track car on the planet, and make everyone trade in their ferrari's and porsches and be in something MORE EXOTIC looking as they UPGRADE to a chevy.
GM needs to take a step back and realize, they could have the throne, in 2 markets, not just 1, and the car that could take the 2nd throne, could have an entry price of 80 grand... and it wont be carrying any golf clubs... and every person who buys it wont care.... just like every person who buys a mclaren, lambo, Ford GT, Miata, VW Beetle, Motorcycle... does not care. Theres a huge market of humans who buy vehicles, who don't care about golf clubs.
Tadge won the battle but lost the war. The first ME should have been a "miata" / wasp mindset. Something out of a movie, a fun little car that is all aero, light weight, big power, ME, and affordable relative to everything else on the market. It should have been a car, that was so sticky to a track with its aero and light weight, that it would make people not hardly see the logic in buying an ariel Atom, but would still weigh more obviously. The car would be THE car to be seen in, as its functioning aero to keep it glued to a track would be something revolutionary for a production vehicle.
What GM produced instead with the c8 looks like a ford taurus in comparison to what im speaking about right now. What im speaking about would have been to the year 2020 what the viper was to the year 1992.
People who fork out the cash for ME super cars...
They care about 3 things: Being the fastest. Their bank account. And being unique and exclusive.
An ME vette with huge air pass throughs like a ford GT would satisfy the first 2 of those above 3 categories, enough to justify in their minds to sacrifice on the 3rd category (since it would still be a mass produced car and less exclusive vs a GT or Lambo), and instead, they would take the 200 grand they just saved, and they would figure out a way to add aftermarket wheels and body kits to make it "their own", and GM might have even knocked one of their competitors out of business if they had done this...
They would have stolen the show... and as so many wise old men from the auto industry have stated... they would have had a car that 8 year olds want a poster of on their bedroom walls, not a 15 year late nsx refresh. People forget how revolutionary the Viper's body was when it was revealed in 92. Look at the other chryslers and dodges that were made in 1990.
The new ME would dominate any track and dominate the ring. I did not say "do as well as, or keep up with other cars", i said dominate/destroy them, as aero is everything at this stage in the game. Price is a choice and it comes down when things are mass produced. People who can buy Demons or Mustang GT 500's, would have the next 1992 "viper" to seduce them instead, in the year 2020.
I get so sick of hearing people say "but thats not chevy, chevy is not a space age car"... its a choice. GM just has to make it. And it would add a new image to their entire brand, just like Dodge did with the viper and then the ram pickup in the early 90's. Dodge came from last place, and then were doing pretty well there for a minute, and still are to this day because of that transformation. Take a scroll through the photos of 1991 dodge lineup, and compare that to the 1994 lineup. Its black and white, night and day. It all starts with a choice.
It takes *****, but its a choice.
Abandoning the FE is such a dumb idea... i don't even understand why people hope it would be an option on the table. Improve the FE car, its not the end, its not a cliff, its not a brick wall, there is better to be had, I assure you... much better to be had. Add the plush, add the class, add the gismos, better engines and transmissions and take corvette to another level with the restyled FE, with lighter weight frames and tubs, and make people think twice before they buy an Aston Martin or a Jag.
Keep designing/improving and keep selling.
And hopefully GM realizes by now... that the next/2nd generation ME car they make, does not need to carry golf clubs...
It needs to destroy everyone and their brother on every track on this planet, and ill be in the long line to buy one, and the old guys retiring will still be buying FE cars for decades to come.
First thing everyone needs to understand is, Tadge has made it very clear that he has a vendatta against FE corvettes, and I think he needs to be put in check for a bit, and realize, the ME is going to make it and is here to stay at this point. He can let go of the idea of trying to trash the FE, and start letting the FE become all that it can become moving forward. All the tooling exists to make it, it just needs a new body refresh, interior refresh, and engine refresh. Not difficult to do.
I believe he is embarrassed though, because behind the scenes, he made a case that it cant be progressed any further and was a dead end. So he has an ego motive to save face. I have heard this from my friends on the inside. He hates the FE, meanwhile there are those that want it to continue. Time will tell what they do, and if he can grow up and relax that the ME is reality now, so no need to destroy the FE's character from this point forward.
I believe GM would have been much better off as a brand had the ME vette been named something else, not needed to carry golf clubs, and like the Ford GT, had huge aero pass throughs, and been space age looking... and the FE remained for the people who needed something more practical and traditional. Then if GM wanted to introduce a practical ME like mclaren is now doing, and do that down the road as yet a 3rd model, and have it in the same name category of the ME space age car... that would be the proper way to brand an icon, and take GM and Chevy up a notch on the global stage.
But they aren't that smart apparently (if most people here are indeed correct that this is the end of the FE). Everyone thinks it has to be just "one perfect car" for everyone everywhere. Reminds me of a 4 year old girl enthusiastically explaining her new barbie she knows santa is going to bring her.
No such thing as perfection, this universe does not allow for such an idea. Always tradeoffs, which demands the necessity for variety. Porsche has variety. Ferrari does. Lambo does. Mclaren does. Aston Martin does. Corvette does not.
Corvette needs to be a brand with sub models or GM should have at least put the corvette and camaro team in charge of a new ME car and called it something else.
This "one perfect car" idea gets old listening to from the 4 year olds who still believe in magic.
GM lost sight of a simple goal... if I want to have the fastest front engine car, a wide body FE vette is the perfect foundation to start my project... has been for as long as ive been driving since the C5 in 1997. Superior to viper or any ferarri, the vette is THE car to start from on a pure numbers and capability standpoint, and send off to Lingenfelter etc, (or progress to where you can do it yourself after you've bought and modified enough of these things
If I want the fastest ME car, the c8 wont be it... it lacks the aero pass throughs, and lacks the sleek rear end to reduce drag. The ford GT is the superior platform to start from. Other ME cars will also continue to be the superior platform to start from, the tiny lambos with the sleek rear ends and the mclarens etc. Aero is aero, its not magic. The shape of the rear of the c8 is large and sqaure, it will have a larger rear aero drag than the other cars listed above.
I think GM should have targeted the ford GT and one upped Ford, and made THAT car mass produced and affordable. A ford GT vs lambo vs "wasp" shaped car that starts at 80 grand and only has the front trunk area... and a refresh of the c7 FE car with a new body and a new interior and taken up a notch in class and comfort, and the new engine for 2020 in both models....
GM would have been on a new level.
The c8 does not take them to that new level. I dont care whats under the camo, i can see from the cad images, they did not aspire to be THE ME car to buy if one wants to destroy the competition on a race track. They were worried about golf clubs and luggage. And the reason they were worried about golf clubs is because Tadge said the FE needs to be killed. Instead of targeting 2 markets they are targeting 1. They have not yet targeted the market of people who have another car in their garage, and want to buy the fastest track car on the planet, and make everyone trade in their ferrari's and porsches and be in something MORE EXOTIC looking as they UPGRADE to a chevy.
GM needs to take a step back and realize, they could have the throne, in 2 markets, not just 1, and the car that could take the 2nd throne, could have an entry price of 80 grand... and it wont be carrying any golf clubs... and every person who buys it wont care.... just like every person who buys a mclaren, lambo, Ford GT, Miata, VW Beetle, Motorcycle... does not care. Theres a huge market of humans who buy vehicles, who don't care about golf clubs.
Tadge won the battle but lost the war. The first ME should have been a "miata" / wasp mindset. Something out of a movie, a fun little car that is all aero, light weight, big power, ME, and affordable relative to everything else on the market. It should have been a car, that was so sticky to a track with its aero and light weight, that it would make people not hardly see the logic in buying an ariel Atom, but would still weigh more obviously. The car would be THE car to be seen in, as its functioning aero to keep it glued to a track would be something revolutionary for a production vehicle.
What GM produced instead with the c8 looks like a ford taurus in comparison to what im speaking about right now. What im speaking about would have been to the year 2020 what the viper was to the year 1992.
People who fork out the cash for ME super cars...
They care about 3 things: Being the fastest. Their bank account. And being unique and exclusive.
An ME vette with huge air pass throughs like a ford GT would satisfy the first 2 of those above 3 categories, enough to justify in their minds to sacrifice on the 3rd category (since it would still be a mass produced car and less exclusive vs a GT or Lambo), and instead, they would take the 200 grand they just saved, and they would figure out a way to add aftermarket wheels and body kits to make it "their own", and GM might have even knocked one of their competitors out of business if they had done this...
They would have stolen the show... and as so many wise old men from the auto industry have stated... they would have had a car that 8 year olds want a poster of on their bedroom walls, not a 15 year late nsx refresh. People forget how revolutionary the Viper's body was when it was revealed in 92. Look at the other chryslers and dodges that were made in 1990.
The new ME would dominate any track and dominate the ring. I did not say "do as well as, or keep up with other cars", i said dominate/destroy them, as aero is everything at this stage in the game. Price is a choice and it comes down when things are mass produced. People who can buy Demons or Mustang GT 500's, would have the next 1992 "viper" to seduce them instead, in the year 2020.
I get so sick of hearing people say "but thats not chevy, chevy is not a space age car"... its a choice. GM just has to make it. And it would add a new image to their entire brand, just like Dodge did with the viper and then the ram pickup in the early 90's. Dodge came from last place, and then were doing pretty well there for a minute, and still are to this day because of that transformation. Take a scroll through the photos of 1991 dodge lineup, and compare that to the 1994 lineup. Its black and white, night and day. It all starts with a choice.
It takes *****, but its a choice.
Abandoning the FE is such a dumb idea... i don't even understand why people hope it would be an option on the table. Improve the FE car, its not the end, its not a cliff, its not a brick wall, there is better to be had, I assure you... much better to be had. Add the plush, add the class, add the gismos, better engines and transmissions and take corvette to another level with the restyled FE, with lighter weight frames and tubs, and make people think twice before they buy an Aston Martin or a Jag.
Keep designing/improving and keep selling.
And hopefully GM realizes by now... that the next/2nd generation ME car they make, does not need to carry golf clubs...
It needs to destroy everyone and their brother on every track on this planet, and ill be in the long line to buy one, and the old guys retiring will still be buying FE cars for decades to come.
Last edited by Mikec7z; 04-09-2019 at 08:38 AM.
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tcinla (07-17-2019)
Popular Reply
04-09-2019, 11:57 AM
Le Mans Master
GM is not the market behemoth that it was in the 20th century. Its resources are limited, and its competition is fierce -- not Porsche, but Volkswagen AG.
GM cannot afford to maintain multiple Corvette platforms. There's not enough bandwidth in their engineering or marketing, and not enough room in the market.
Expanding the Corvette brand dilutes the brand and cannibalizes GM's other brands. And Corvette's brand is defined by its position as GM's best sports car.
Corvette Racing will do fine with whatever the road car gives them as a starting point. Modern racing series depend on maintaining close competition. And for amateur/gentleman racing, the new mid-engine road car will be good enough to maintain a place for Corvette.
Corvette is not the same kind of halo car as Ford GT or even Acura NSX. Corvette must be a real car that real people buy and drive regularly. But it must still be GM's best sports car -- all in one. That is its identity. That is the only identity that it can afford to have.
Tadge Juechter is doing the right thing for Corvette. The mid-rear-engine design will re-establish Corvette's not-like-regular-cars image in clear terms non-enthusiasts can see at a glance, and it's a more straightforward solution to the engineering challenges of maintaining Corvette's place in the market over the next decade and beyond.
GM cannot afford to maintain multiple Corvette platforms. There's not enough bandwidth in their engineering or marketing, and not enough room in the market.
Expanding the Corvette brand dilutes the brand and cannibalizes GM's other brands. And Corvette's brand is defined by its position as GM's best sports car.
Corvette Racing will do fine with whatever the road car gives them as a starting point. Modern racing series depend on maintaining close competition. And for amateur/gentleman racing, the new mid-engine road car will be good enough to maintain a place for Corvette.
Corvette is not the same kind of halo car as Ford GT or even Acura NSX. Corvette must be a real car that real people buy and drive regularly. But it must still be GM's best sports car -- all in one. That is its identity. That is the only identity that it can afford to have.
Tadge Juechter is doing the right thing for Corvette. The mid-rear-engine design will re-establish Corvette's not-like-regular-cars image in clear terms non-enthusiasts can see at a glance, and it's a more straightforward solution to the engineering challenges of maintaining Corvette's place in the market over the next decade and beyond.
#2
Burning Brakes
All that, and... needs a manual option.
#3
Melting Slicks
It is obvious to some of us, that you really don't understand the Corvette, why it is not a brand, and why 2 models (or more as you argue) would be a sales disaster for the Corvette.
Corvette is an aspirational vehicle for the middle to upper middle class, rooted in the premise that it performs nearly as well, although sometimes better than exotics costing 3-8x as much, while still allowing them to use it as a car. 98% of Corvette owners don't track them, and rarely use its full capability - but like knowing that performance is there. They also "need" to believe that whether the own a Stingray or ZR1, for most of the public (just like Porsche owners with all variants of 911) they wouldn't know that a Stingray is $60k and a ZR1 is $130k. Having two models (FE & ME) destroys this and makes it just like the FE being a Porsche Cayman/Boxster and ME being a 911 - which requires two separate classes of buyers: a Cayman or Boxster buyer knows he didn't get the real Porsche and has accepted that label: Corvette buyers wouldn't do so.
In the end if GM were to make a ME with all the usefulness of a Ford GT for the price of an Acura NSX or Audi R8, it would sell in the same numbers (less than 1,000 per year), while also discouraging the potential FE buyers who are now getting a 2 seat Camaro - which will also reduce its sales to practically nothing.
If you look at why Corvette is successful, it is because it is a fully useable car with just 2 seats - many people can live without 4 seats, but can't do without it being able to carry luggage, groceries or golf clubs.
Corvette is an aspirational vehicle for the middle to upper middle class, rooted in the premise that it performs nearly as well, although sometimes better than exotics costing 3-8x as much, while still allowing them to use it as a car. 98% of Corvette owners don't track them, and rarely use its full capability - but like knowing that performance is there. They also "need" to believe that whether the own a Stingray or ZR1, for most of the public (just like Porsche owners with all variants of 911) they wouldn't know that a Stingray is $60k and a ZR1 is $130k. Having two models (FE & ME) destroys this and makes it just like the FE being a Porsche Cayman/Boxster and ME being a 911 - which requires two separate classes of buyers: a Cayman or Boxster buyer knows he didn't get the real Porsche and has accepted that label: Corvette buyers wouldn't do so.
In the end if GM were to make a ME with all the usefulness of a Ford GT for the price of an Acura NSX or Audi R8, it would sell in the same numbers (less than 1,000 per year), while also discouraging the potential FE buyers who are now getting a 2 seat Camaro - which will also reduce its sales to practically nothing.
If you look at why Corvette is successful, it is because it is a fully useable car with just 2 seats - many people can live without 4 seats, but can't do without it being able to carry luggage, groceries or golf clubs.
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#4
Melting Slicks
^^^ So what you are saying is that Corvette buyers have little dicks and are so insecure that the image of their car is everything to them?
And the public can't tell the difference between a base Corvette and a Z06 or ZR1 (or even a GS)? Umm, I'll disagree with that.
Now, I agree that making a Corvette at Ford GT prices (and possibly even NSX/R8 prices) would be very risky and likely a mistake and hurt sales. But so would cutting a bunch of corners on the car (or subsidizing it) just to keep it at $60k imho.
And the public can't tell the difference between a base Corvette and a Z06 or ZR1 (or even a GS)? Umm, I'll disagree with that.
Now, I agree that making a Corvette at Ford GT prices (and possibly even NSX/R8 prices) would be very risky and likely a mistake and hurt sales. But so would cutting a bunch of corners on the car (or subsidizing it) just to keep it at $60k imho.
Last edited by Steve Garrett; 04-09-2019 at 02:11 PM.
#5
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
I believe moving forward, what I would like to see GM do (and yes, this is my opinion, my vote, and im not the only one on earth, but i think others agree with me, this thread will demonstrate)
... i believe since GM has already addressed the "grand touring" model with the upcoming c8 (and thats where i put it, my opinion, its not a supercar, its a compromise mobile, GT)
I believe since they already have the GT model invented, their next model needs to be very radical, and it needs to come out very soon. Since they have the c8 platform/drive-train designed already, that would be the drive-train I would use obviously if I were GM, but it would have 40,000 dollars worth of wings on the car, and for those that think I am exaggerating, i'm not.
So lets get that out of the way first, since people are going to say "do you have any idea how much the body panels alone would cost to make a car with that much downforce and be that hallow for air to pass through!?"
Yes, at least 40 grand, probably more.
So now that your imaginations are starting to keep up with where mine is, chevy could have a 150,000 dollar car that would kill 918, la ferrari and even koenigsegg on road courses. Might not have a higher top speed, but who cares, when was the last time anyone in here or that you know went 250 who owned a koenigsegg?
Instead of top speed, this car will be sacrificing it for downforce.
I believe we would all like to pull 1.5G around exit ramps instead of travel 260mph. It would be like an arial atom/ford GT but something much more revolutionary. To keep the costs down and allow for ease of access for maintenance, all the wings this thing will be made out of will be 2 parts that clam together and interlock, but also come back apart when someone needs to access the wires or gizmos that will be housed within them throughout the car....
and I will have to draw a picture to explain further....
But before I go, I like the name The Corvette Indy. or "The Indy"....
And it would be so radical, that it might even have the passenger behind the driver like the mclaren f1... and that would be the play on the "Indy" name, it could also be spelled Indi for "individual" as the car has one person in mind.... its driver....
Originally this is NOT the car I was hoping GM would have made in my original post... but since they are already obligated/dedicated to the GT they have running around in camo that will be the c8... this is what I believe GM needs to do as their next move, and they need to do it soon....
... i believe since GM has already addressed the "grand touring" model with the upcoming c8 (and thats where i put it, my opinion, its not a supercar, its a compromise mobile, GT)
I believe since they already have the GT model invented, their next model needs to be very radical, and it needs to come out very soon. Since they have the c8 platform/drive-train designed already, that would be the drive-train I would use obviously if I were GM, but it would have 40,000 dollars worth of wings on the car, and for those that think I am exaggerating, i'm not.
So lets get that out of the way first, since people are going to say "do you have any idea how much the body panels alone would cost to make a car with that much downforce and be that hallow for air to pass through!?"
Yes, at least 40 grand, probably more.
So now that your imaginations are starting to keep up with where mine is, chevy could have a 150,000 dollar car that would kill 918, la ferrari and even koenigsegg on road courses. Might not have a higher top speed, but who cares, when was the last time anyone in here or that you know went 250 who owned a koenigsegg?
Instead of top speed, this car will be sacrificing it for downforce.
I believe we would all like to pull 1.5G around exit ramps instead of travel 260mph. It would be like an arial atom/ford GT but something much more revolutionary. To keep the costs down and allow for ease of access for maintenance, all the wings this thing will be made out of will be 2 parts that clam together and interlock, but also come back apart when someone needs to access the wires or gizmos that will be housed within them throughout the car....
and I will have to draw a picture to explain further....
But before I go, I like the name The Corvette Indy. or "The Indy"....
And it would be so radical, that it might even have the passenger behind the driver like the mclaren f1... and that would be the play on the "Indy" name, it could also be spelled Indi for "individual" as the car has one person in mind.... its driver....
Originally this is NOT the car I was hoping GM would have made in my original post... but since they are already obligated/dedicated to the GT they have running around in camo that will be the c8... this is what I believe GM needs to do as their next move, and they need to do it soon....
Last edited by Mikec7z; 04-09-2019 at 09:49 AM.
#6
Melting Slicks
I think the "Indy" name would be bad for the type of car you are describing. When I hear "Indy", I am picturing the exact opposite of what you are describing. I am picturing low downforce and top speed as primary.
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Red67John (04-09-2019)
#7
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
i guess indy cars have more wings on them than vettes, and since everything is relative, this is a corvette becoming like an indy car.
But we can they can call it whatever, i just think someone needs to build the thing...
But we can they can call it whatever, i just think someone needs to build the thing...
Last edited by Mikec7z; 04-09-2019 at 10:01 AM.
#8
Le Mans Master
GM is not the market behemoth that it was in the 20th century. Its resources are limited, and its competition is fierce -- not Porsche, but Volkswagen AG.
GM cannot afford to maintain multiple Corvette platforms. There's not enough bandwidth in their engineering or marketing, and not enough room in the market.
Expanding the Corvette brand dilutes the brand and cannibalizes GM's other brands. And Corvette's brand is defined by its position as GM's best sports car.
Corvette Racing will do fine with whatever the road car gives them as a starting point. Modern racing series depend on maintaining close competition. And for amateur/gentleman racing, the new mid-engine road car will be good enough to maintain a place for Corvette.
Corvette is not the same kind of halo car as Ford GT or even Acura NSX. Corvette must be a real car that real people buy and drive regularly. But it must still be GM's best sports car -- all in one. That is its identity. That is the only identity that it can afford to have.
Tadge Juechter is doing the right thing for Corvette. The mid-rear-engine design will re-establish Corvette's not-like-regular-cars image in clear terms non-enthusiasts can see at a glance, and it's a more straightforward solution to the engineering challenges of maintaining Corvette's place in the market over the next decade and beyond.
GM cannot afford to maintain multiple Corvette platforms. There's not enough bandwidth in their engineering or marketing, and not enough room in the market.
Expanding the Corvette brand dilutes the brand and cannibalizes GM's other brands. And Corvette's brand is defined by its position as GM's best sports car.
Corvette Racing will do fine with whatever the road car gives them as a starting point. Modern racing series depend on maintaining close competition. And for amateur/gentleman racing, the new mid-engine road car will be good enough to maintain a place for Corvette.
Corvette is not the same kind of halo car as Ford GT or even Acura NSX. Corvette must be a real car that real people buy and drive regularly. But it must still be GM's best sports car -- all in one. That is its identity. That is the only identity that it can afford to have.
Tadge Juechter is doing the right thing for Corvette. The mid-rear-engine design will re-establish Corvette's not-like-regular-cars image in clear terms non-enthusiasts can see at a glance, and it's a more straightforward solution to the engineering challenges of maintaining Corvette's place in the market over the next decade and beyond.
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#9
Melting Slicks
So what you are saying is that Corvette buyers have little dicks and are so insecure that the image of their car is everything to them?
And the public can't tell the difference between a base Corvette and a Z06 or ZR1 (or even a GS)? Umm, I'll disagree with that.
Now, I agree that making a Corvette at Ford GT prices (and possibly even NSX/R8 prices) would be very risky and likely a mistake and hurt sales. But so would cutting a bunch of corners on the car (or subsidizing it) just to keep it at $60k imho.
And the public can't tell the difference between a base Corvette and a Z06 or ZR1 (or even a GS)? Umm, I'll disagree with that.
Now, I agree that making a Corvette at Ford GT prices (and possibly even NSX/R8 prices) would be very risky and likely a mistake and hurt sales. But so would cutting a bunch of corners on the car (or subsidizing it) just to keep it at $60k imho.
On the second, no, I don't think the average person walking down the street would know a ZR1 from a Stingray with an aftermarket wing.
On the third, the Corvette is already a car under $60k, so I guess it is already flawed.
First thing everyone needs to understand is, Tadge has made it very clear that he has a vendatta against FE corvettes, and I think he needs to be put in check for a bit, and realize, the ME is going to make it and is here to stay at this point. He can let go of the idea of trying to trash the FE, and start letting the FE become all that it can become moving forward. All the tooling exists to make it, it just needs a new body refresh, interior refresh, and engine refresh. Not difficult to do.
As for the rest, TL/DR. Learn to sum up rants in a couple paragraphs or less.
Last edited by Steve Garrett; 04-09-2019 at 02:12 PM. Reason: Merged Posts-Please use the Multi Quote button (middle button, lower right hand corner) to respond to multiple people with one response.
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LuisZ51 (07-17-2019),
sidewinder77 (07-17-2019)
#10
I personally think Tadge is right. I have had a 911 and a McLaren for a little while and now have a 19 z06. The z06 can't put power down and is downright scary when you step on it. Too light in the rear for a rear wheel 650hp torque monster. The Ferrari superfast has the same problem. If you want a platform to go faster you need engine in the back otherwise the car just tries to kill you if you ever step on it. You don't feel that in a 570gt.
#11
Drifting
Tadge Juechter is doing the right thing for Corvette. The mid-rear-engine design will re-establish Corvette's not-like-regular-cars image in clear terms non-enthusiasts can see at a glance, and it's a more straightforward solution to the engineering challenges of maintaining Corvette's place in the market over the next decade and beyond.
You want raw performance skip the Base or GS & go to the Camaro.
General public sees a C7 & its a StingRay, it might cost $50K or $120K but they still see a StingRay. It would never occur to most that you can buy a quicker Camaro.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 04-09-2019 at 12:32 PM.
#12
Melting Slicks
On the first point, I can think of a few people around here that fit that perfectly. But, that applies to pretty much every make and model of cars that have a following, as much as they each want to make others think their ownership group is perfect and others are snobs who are compensating for lack of bedroom performance.
On the second, no, I don't think the average person walking down the street would know a ZR1 from a Stingray with an aftermarket wing.
On the third, the Corvette is already a car under $60k, so I guess it is already flawed.
On the second, no, I don't think the average person walking down the street would know a ZR1 from a Stingray with an aftermarket wing.
On the third, the Corvette is already a car under $60k, so I guess it is already flawed.
Second point, tying back to the first, is "who cares"? It only matters IF you are so insecure that you need some sort of validation based on how much money you spent on something. It's like those that brag about having a Ferrari, or wearing Rolex, or whatever. Who cares?
Third, the Corvette (base) is under $60k, but it's been discussed to death the majority were probably over $60k with upgrades. So, some of those compromises were addressed by buyers. But take a peak at the C7 forum, lots of bitching about what I would call compromises, from Z06s overheating to poor panel fit, material defects, orange peal, etc. I wish Chevy would stop cutting corners.
#13
Melting Slicks
Second point, tying back to the first, is "who cares"? It only matters IF you are so insecure that you need some sort of validation based on how much money you spent on something. It's like those that brag about having a Ferrari, or wearing Rolex, or whatever. Who cares?
Third, the Corvette (base) is under $60k, but it's been discussed to death the majority were probably over $60k with upgrades. So, some of those compromises were addressed by buyers. But take a peak at the C7 forum, lots of bitching about what I would call compromises, from Z06s overheating to poor panel fit, material defects, orange peal, etc. I wish Chevy would stop cutting corners.
Having worked as an automotive supplier for the past five years, it is always astounding to me what they will cut corners on, but they do it and keep selling cars, so they seem to have a grasp on what they should and shouldn't skimp on.
#14
Melting Slicks
Eh, I don't disagree but I could make that argument about a lot of American performance cars. I chalk it up to things like that being the difference in being able to buy a $60k sports car that performs as well as a $200k sports car.
Having worked as an automotive supplier for the past five years, it is always astounding to me what they will cut corners on, but they do it and keep selling cars, so they seem to have a grasp on what they should and shouldn't skimp on.
Having worked as an automotive supplier for the past five years, it is always astounding to me what they will cut corners on, but they do it and keep selling cars, so they seem to have a grasp on what they should and shouldn't skimp on.
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jefnvk (04-09-2019)
#15
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
when people say GM is not big...
koenigsegg is not big. But with small startup funds, they make money. Customer's Money follows value. The moment chevy offers something that kills every car up to a million dollars and beyond, and costs 150 grand, they would not be able to produce them fast enough.
To say GM does not have the money to build a cool supercar killer and be competitive and profitable is laughable.
im not saying make the whole tub of the car out of carbon fiber (but maybe if you make enough of them you could make it cost effective)
im saying use wings all around the car and do something revolutionary. Ive been busy today, so no picture drawn yet.
koenigsegg is not big. But with small startup funds, they make money. Customer's Money follows value. The moment chevy offers something that kills every car up to a million dollars and beyond, and costs 150 grand, they would not be able to produce them fast enough.
To say GM does not have the money to build a cool supercar killer and be competitive and profitable is laughable.
im not saying make the whole tub of the car out of carbon fiber (but maybe if you make enough of them you could make it cost effective)
im saying use wings all around the car and do something revolutionary. Ive been busy today, so no picture drawn yet.
#16
Melting Slicks
There simply isn't a large market for any car once you are into the six figures. It is one thing to upsell a person from a $55k car to a $70k car, if they have the money for the former they likely have the money for the latter. It is another thing completely to upsell them to something that costs two and a half times as much, or in many parts few the country the price of a modest family home.
Last edited by jefnvk; 04-09-2019 at 02:24 PM.
#17
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
....correct.... and the zr1 does not impress me. If it did i would buy it, and so would many others. Its a 60grand car with a wing on the back at the end of the day. The value is not there for me and many other buyers.
Lets call a spade a spade, i cant take an lt5 blower, throw it on a z06 or even a grand sport, make 1000hp and 1000 torque, but under 100 grand with all the cooling mods... (and frankly i would shave weight because i would air cool the oil directly instead of double/triple exchanges like GM does using water to cool the oil)
and that is still not what im suggesting they build. That is a normal car... not a super car that produces its weight in downforce at higher speeds, nor am i suggesting a conventional park bench of a wing added to a normal car.
im talking about something like the ford GT, where the spoilers are built into the support beams that connect the car, but taken to the next level.
And large cut aways like the ford GT and Valkyrie have.
Something that is beautiful to study and takes time to absorb and understand how it works when you look at it. Art.
Lets call a spade a spade, i cant take an lt5 blower, throw it on a z06 or even a grand sport, make 1000hp and 1000 torque, but under 100 grand with all the cooling mods... (and frankly i would shave weight because i would air cool the oil directly instead of double/triple exchanges like GM does using water to cool the oil)
and that is still not what im suggesting they build. That is a normal car... not a super car that produces its weight in downforce at higher speeds, nor am i suggesting a conventional park bench of a wing added to a normal car.
im talking about something like the ford GT, where the spoilers are built into the support beams that connect the car, but taken to the next level.
And large cut aways like the ford GT and Valkyrie have.
Something that is beautiful to study and takes time to absorb and understand how it works when you look at it. Art.
Last edited by Mikec7z; 04-09-2019 at 02:42 PM.
#18
Melting Slicks
There simply isn't a large market for any car once you are into the six figures. It is one thing to upsell a person from a $55k car to a $70k car, if they have the money for the former they likely have the money for the latter. It is another thing completely to upsell them to something that costs two and a half times as much, or in many parts few the country the price of a modest family home.
#19
Drifting
******* brilliant idea, let's make the C8 a car for billionaire collectors so few of us get to own one.
How many Ford GTs have you guys seen on the road? Do any of you even know anyone who got to buy a GT? Would any of you be able to walk into a Ford dealer and buy a Ford GT? Hint: no.
Thankfully Juechter has exemplary business sense and his leadership will keep the Corvette program alive and well so we all get to own and drive a C8, and eventually C9s. He's moving the engine to where it belongs but he's not changing the formula that made the Corvette one of the most successful car models in all of history.
How many Ford GTs have you guys seen on the road? Do any of you even know anyone who got to buy a GT? Would any of you be able to walk into a Ford dealer and buy a Ford GT? Hint: no.
Thankfully Juechter has exemplary business sense and his leadership will keep the Corvette program alive and well so we all get to own and drive a C8, and eventually C9s. He's moving the engine to where it belongs but he's not changing the formula that made the Corvette one of the most successful car models in all of history.
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#20
Melting Slicks
And the argument against is that GM simply isn't in the market to make an entirely new platform that will sell in the hundreds, maybe very low thousands, of examples a year. The cost to produce such a car is astronomical and unprofitable, and the simple fact we have seen the mules so much in comparison to what we saw of the GTs before release tells you they aren't going for a limited number, hand produced supercar, they are going to be mass marketed.
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Red67John (04-09-2019)