jefnvk

How does the business case for at least three different trims and a couple different performance package levels work out, but a stripped down base model without AC or power seats or dozens of speakers or such doesn't? And if we accept that the Corvette shouldn't be anything but comfort, why worry about weight at all?

I guess I just view it as one other trim level to go with a myriad of options already available. I honestly have no idea how well it would sell, but the economics of it are really no different than offering customizable interiors, graphics packages, etc. As the order is going down the line, just like any order, it is just certain parts that get bolted on while others are left off.

vndkshn

Because of bench racers. Same answers for "why offer CCBs"? I've seen ONE Vette with CCBs at the track. And I go extremely frequently and instruct. In a year, I probably see maybe 20 Vettes total.

mschuyler

Because it's not a "trim level." You are advocating stripping down a car to save weight. That's major surgery. Just what are you going to take out of the car to save any appreciable weight? Just to use an analogy, a trim level is like changing your clothes. You exchange your jeans and t-shirt (1LT) for a three piece suit (3LT). But to "de content" a Vette you need to lose 100 pounds. It's going to take awhile and require some serious will power. It's a lot more difficult to accomplish.

acroy

I'm holding out hope they'll do a C6Z style version with lightened bits (alum/magnesium frame, carbon fenders etc) and a refreshed version of an LS7 with 575-600whp.

now that would be killer

But likely just a pipe dream.....

Red67John

As mentioned in a couple of posts today, there really are not that many Corvette owners that track their cars. I would guess it’s well under ten percent. However, I would agree that GM could, probably should, offer a COPO ordering option for the hard core performance buyers. That makes perfect sense. Shy of that, the serious track crowd will have to just do what has always been done, gut the weight from their cars. The only difference today is you sell all that weighty stuff on Craiglist or eBay.

JerriVette

consider researching how many fifth gen camaro z28 s without air conditioning were ever sold to the public.

i think porsche offers it a few supposed track models with no air conditioning and then charges extra to have a customer add the ac....id imagine most porsche enthusoasts add the ac back in.

same for hellcats or demons.....for a dollar i think ac got added back in and everyone added ac back in...

there is a certain basic level that consumers really want...

i remember johnny liberman and a few other magazine writers laughing and rioting about having to drive a z28 or a mclaren that was optioned out as a road test vehicle and it didnt come with ac....

thats a little too hard core even for the dreaming writers of car magazines or podcasts...

everybody or most everybody likes ac...

just something to consider

Zymurgy

Simple answer - VOLUME.

Many have already tried to tell you this, but you seem to insist that there will be thousands (that the volumes of the different trims/performance packages) willing to buy this stripped version. The reality is that there won't be enough buyers to get the volume required.

As for "parts are simply bolted on or left off", how do you just "leave off" the A/C compressor? What do you do with the serpentine belt that now doesn't fit? Not to mention the different wiring harnesses that would be required. The various control modules are expecting things to be connected to those and will throw all kinds of codes without the right inputs.

jefnvk

Just from a quick glance at the 1LT list, I'm guessing I could shed a good chunk of that 100# by replacing 8-way power leather seats and power steering column with manual lighter options and trimming back on a 9-speaker Bose stereo. Some quick searching on the forums show C7 seat and base weight somewhere in the 60# vicinity each, which isn't insignificant.

Can you get to a point of diminishing returns quite quickly with weight savings? Absolutely, but that doesn't mean there isn't a lot of low hanging fruit on the current base offerings, especially to someone already looking for performance, not comfort.

But if folks here want to write the car off as not something people care about driving on a track anyhow, carry on

ArmchairArchitect

Agree 100% with the OP. Make a purist version of the C8 without all the weight adders (unnecessary or seldom used features).

jcp911s

Sexy an idea as it is, a factory "track" Corvette makes no marketing sense. I'd argue that the C7 Grand Sport is as close to a track special as you can (and probably want to) get. Now, if they offered a "stripper" with Z51 and no A/C, Radio, sound insulation..etc, etc, for $6-8K under "base", it would sell... but that won't happen.

Comparing the mythical "track" C8 to a Porsche GT3/RS, is apples to cumquats... they are two totally different buyers, totally different markets.

The reality is "what is good for the street is bad for the track, and vice versa"... dual use Street/Track cars are generally compromised cars lousy at both roles.

The folks who suggest that you just buy a low option car, and build a track car yourself, are pretty much on the money.

mschuyler

I'm thinking it would take more than 100 pounds, especially sice you'll need to account for the weight of a roll bar cage. That was just an example and referred to shedding body weight for a human, not pounds off a corvette. But more to the point, it's not so much that people on this forum agree or disagree with you, it's what GM is willing to do. The consensus here appears to be that they won't. But you can keep waiting for it anyhow. Carry on.

RapidC84B

Just let the engineers who did the C5 Z06 and C6 Z06 do the C8 Z51:

1. Thinner glass

2. Thin carpet with minimal padding.

3. Minimal 4-speaker stereo with no sub no extras

4. Light weight manual seats (OEM C7 seats are 70 lbs each!)

5. Light weight forged wheels; OEM Z51 rear wheels are 27 lbs each vs. the C5 Z06 rears at 20 each.

TXshaggy

I see you’re new around here so welcome to the forum and corvette ownership! Over the years GM has responded to the market and loyal owners with upgrades...do these things weigh more, usually yes.

My C5 Z06 had a crappy Bose 4 speaker radio...this was a continual criticism. Now we have a 10 speaker system that is pretty good.

Another long standing complaint were the shitty seats that you sat on and not in. How do you provide more adjustable support and bolsters...with powered accessories. The C7 seats both sport and GT have generally garnered praise as moving in the right direction. Sure you can put manual lightweight bolstered seats in, but how many would go that route? I have Porsche GT2 carbon fiber buckets in another car, they are manual, don’t recline, and are non adjustable. When new, most ordered no cost sport seats instead...what does that say?

Sometimes making a car more track focused requires heavier components and added systems like diff and cooling found on the C7...that adds weight.

Other things like CCBs add huge expense, but hey happy GM gave us that option for weight savings even though most deride that option on the forum and doesn’t sell well.

GM produced 400 Z/28s w/o radio, ac, carpet, etc...they cost twice as much as an SS and largely sat around for years on dealer lots.

If you want a track focused car, you can make all the lightweight mods yourself, much cheaper than GM or send it off to a vendor like Katech.

KnightDriveTV

I'm fully and well aware of all the details and parameters you outlined here. The fact is though, history rejects this position...history within GM itself in fact.

It seems by your description you're making a few assumptions about how extensive and faceted the "package" needs to be or not be (fully gutted or bespoke in nature). A "track pack" car doesn't need to extensive, simply distinctive...a car that says you're that guy. ZR1 fenders on a grandsport, different wheel tire package/suspension calibration, maybe a titanium exhaust (throwback to C5Z), no sound deadening, make the numbers, sell it in limited quantity as last manual focused Corvette...blah blah blah...would've sold to the old crowd that doesn't want the car, but wants the limited nature and exclusivity. Engineering is about problem solving and if an engineer wants to make it happen, they'll make it happen..period. There are a number of approaches to a weight reduction/focused car that aims at that niche, the fact is do the people involved in the business case process want to put the energy into solving the issue or not. I'm going to say, absolutely not.

From the business case perspective, I assume you have to bring each individual project to the board and propose the entirely outline of cost, impact, projections, etc, but late in the chassis cycle I'd imagine there is "more flexibility" built in. I believe this is how ZR1 came to be. This wasn't a pre-approved program early in the life cycle of the chassis, but the return on investment must've opened that door and made certain ears and minds more receptive. The fact is, choices get made as to what that car is and isn't..marketing, design, engineers; I am sure all debate how that business case gets made and what projections go with it. End of day though, people at the top are going to build what THEY want to build because they have that power. Change a few people on that chain and you won't end up with the same ZR1...it's that simple.

So, I understand you have the predisposed position to repeat what Tadge repeats...no business case, just niche, won't sell, etc. Keep in mind though, C4 was given a sunset order, and a small group of people rejected that notion, and ended up making the business case for it, because they wanted it bad enough. Tadge simply didn't want it. Why...because he's soft...just like Harlan is soft. Tadge wanted out of C7 as fast as possible to get to sealing his legacy in...the mid engine...luckily the economy supported a strong C7 showing in a short amount of time, to get to the ZR1.

I'll tell you flat out, Tadge's explanation in the past for his lack of "business case" was founded based upon bs parameters, which told me clearly that no enthusiast car would pass his desk. He said flatly, that "if there were a strong desire for track focused Corvettes, that 1LT Z06's with the Z07 upgrade would've been selling like hotcakes"....that's just a fools statement That statement, was scarily ignorant of reality. Track guys, who are knowingly going to track their Corvette aren't going to buy a Corvette with carbons on it, due to the consumable cost. 2nd, if you're going to track a Z06, you're equipped absorb the high cost of doing so, and you're very likely a guy who is only going to hold the car for 2-3yrs MAX (under warranty), so buying a 1LT would be foolish, come resale time. That also being said though, there are a hell of a lot of Grand Sport 1LT's sold...implying there are customers willing to pay more to get more handling, Z51, mag ride, more grip, but keep a basic interior and a reliable naturally aspirated engine.

Tadge didn't want it, Harlan didn't want it...it didn't happen because GM sees Corvette solely as a product, not as a legacy...the brand legacy is a marketing bonus, but Gm has no passion for Corvette, as a brand...they don't care about it, and it shows at the races, at the events, at SEMA, you name it.

You disagree...yeah, I know...add something new to the conversation that Tadge hasn't repeated over and over.

RapidC84B

I agree with much of your post, but I don't agree that Tadge and Harlan don't have passion for the brand; I just don't see that. I do agree 100% that the C7 was a stop-gap car and the C8 is the car they really wanted to be working on. I'm fine with that.

One "Ask Tadge" question was "What would you have done with another $100M in development budget" regarding the C7 and the drastically slashed budget vs. the $900M ask (probably the ask to make the C7 ME car), His answer was they would have offered more special focused cars like a "track focused" variant. So clearly it is something they think about.

KnightDriveTV

I didnt say they didn't have passion...they definitely have passion. They just don't have *****...and when I say that...I say it like...how scarface would say it...if you catch my drift. I have plenty of in person conversations with both that, while I absolutely respect their expertise, knowledge, contribution and passion, can also acknowledge and realize that the car they would choose to drive is not the car we are discussing in this thread.

I think to speak specifically to that point you made, what Tadge is really saying is, if the proposal became more risk free to him personally and others in the chain, they would go that route. On a more limited budget, they made safer choices is all, versus legacy setting choices. Doesn't mean they're wrong, but it does mean they're moving the rudder a certain way. This can be seen in brands over the years, that while all the bean counters and business cases looked like the right choices, one day they ended up down a path that was the end.

I think Viper tends to be this example some people point to, but there were so many follies, debacles and differences in the SRT effort and the position Corvette resides in that they can't even be compared.

Inevitably the brand will end up somewhere...but JVP and folks who seem to blindly defend certain decisions seem to ignore the fact that GM themselves have made massive errors in judgement on their business cases because the case itself is loaded with false parameters. End of day, the top guys build what they want to build and thus, steer the direction of the brand.

JoesC5

The AMG GT R Pro is an excellent example of a sports car that was built in limited numbers(750) to make it more track worthy, by shaving weight, adding some adjustable suspension bits, and adding downforce generating aero bits.

It also shaved 6 and a half seconds off the AMG GT R at the Ring(7:4 vs 7:10), using the same identical 4.0L V8 577 HP drivetrain. The AMG GT R Pro is not a stripped car either, and it is expensive and has all the comforts of home.

Do some research and see how much more you have to pay for a AMG GT R Pro over an AMG GT R. I really doubt that you would find 750 Corvette lovers willing to pay what the AMG lovers are willing to pay for their "lightweight" track car, that is 100% licensable for the street.

Of course, you can wait to see what the AMG GT R Black Series brings to the table, especially if it has the 4.0L V8 out of the AMG GT 63 S 4 door coupe with it's 630 HP.

jefnvk

Oh, yeah we circled back to two different definitions of track car. I'm not envisioning a caged track ready beast, just a stripped down street prep (if you will) version with less comfort features and maybe a bit of performance add-ons.

I certainly understand an economic argument about why they wouldn't, I just have a hard time accepting Ford can do it and GM can't, whether it be stripping some weight off a still mostly street car or selling a fully caged track only option

Bill Dearborn

The 99 FRC was supposed to be the stripper model. They didn't sell many and that probably drove development of the C5 Z06. GM did sell about twenty 99 FRC kit cars over the parts counters to qualified race teams. There just isn't that much of a demand for stripper cars right out of the factory.

Bill

KnightDriveTV

The economy of 99, HPDE's of 1999, the fact that Corvette's perception and the demo in 99...not relevant.

A "Stripper" model is not what's being discussed here...it's more of a "Weisach" pack Grand Sport or something similar. A comfortable car, simply tweaked in the way that the C5Z was tweaked beyond the base car. Something like going from a GT3 to a GT3RS. No one is proposing a Copo camaro or straight to the track car...this all stems to the C6 Z06X, which pratt and miller built. It wasn't a massive departure and it was simply a concept, but it was just a slightly more focused, slightly more capable, more HDPE ready version of a Z06. Something similar in the Grand Sport...just slightly more focused, slightly tweaked, for the cost of a Z06, in limited quantity at the end of the run. Easily acknowledged at this point, that the window is closed...never gonna happen...and not likely going to happen to the next car either.

Other brands make a business case for it; other auto makers do it, opposition of Corvette doing it says it's just flat out impossible to sell. I think there is plenty of data to reject that....it just needed to be a calculated execution, and GM wanted to distance themselves from "track"...that's the bottom line. The lawsuit of Z06, the walk away from Nurburgring, etc...all speak to GM's unwillingness to put themselves in the "track" space...not because of buyers, but due to other factors.