0Antigravity

For Armchair and Charged...

First, YES there are a few Cars using Lithium Batteries in their cars... BMW has it in some of the M Models... like M3 and M5s and such. Porsche offers it as an Option in the GT3 line of Cars (Antigravity Batteries owns a GT3RS with our 40Ah H6 in it). McLaren only comes with Lithium Batteries in all their cars.

Second forChargedV90, a Lithium Battery will work perfectly fine in any Cars/Trucks/Airplanes/Motorcycles/Powersports 12v system. So you can better understand there are different types of Lithium... and they are at different voltage depending on their chemical make-up. We use the Lifepo4 Chemistry with is the standard for Automotive and other vehicle 12v systems being they are all operating on a standardized system. Lifepo4 works in the same voltage ranges as its Lead/Acid counterpart. It charges the same off the vehicle's charging system.
And while the Lithium Battery is more expensive and may not be for everyone due to that cost, it has some exceptional advantages that make it beneficial to some.

For example.
1- Twice the cycles of Lead/Acid... for example Lithium offers over 2000 cycles... Lead/Acid is rated at 1000 cycles... so a life cycle of about twice that of Lead/Acid.
2- For our particular Lithium Battery we have a built in Battery Management System that protects the battery from Over-discharge, over-charge, and has short circuit protection for the battery as well as cell balancing for the Lithium Cells inside the Battery. So that makes for a battery you can't damage by accidentally leaving the lights on. Our battery just puts itself to sleep if it sense over-discharge... yet retains enough energy to RE-START the vehicle if you over-discharge it. Just press the key fob.
3- As mentioned above we have wireless built-in Jump starting. So if you did leave a stereo on or lights, or whatever the battery puts itself to sleep, then you press the Keyfob, and it accesses the reserve capacity of the battery and you can start the car again.
4- You drop 35 lbs roughly just doing a 15 minute battery change out. For those wanting less weight there is no other product offering that much weight loss at all. People are paying for high end material to loose a few pound... this is 35lbs in one swoop.

So the upfront cost is more for sure... but the benefits are dramatic, beneficial and functional for even and average user who isn't going for the lightest weight. But it is more for the Performance oriented group of people, we understand that and are not trying to say its for everyone.

0Antigravity

Hey V90... this is Scott from Antigravity, thanks for you posting it allows me to clarify some issues you express.

Automotive electrical systems are harsh places, and if you treat a lithium like you'd treat a lead battery, it WILL go bad on you.
Not really accurate... if you think any of your Vettes are harsher on our battery than Racing Baja then you might be onto something... but a Vette or most any other Performance Car is a walk in the park for our Batteries. We race Baja and the Lucas Oil Trophy Trucks Series, Best in the Desert, IMSA... as well as the Supercross/Motocross Series... plus way more. .. and are in some of those Trophy Truck, and the UTVs and in a larger number of Powersports and Motorcycles.

With lithium:
You hook up a charger with a high amp battery starter feature in it, or just a cheap charger in general. Dead.
Again not accurate... it is NOT anything about high-amps... in fact a lithium battery will absolutely crush a Lead/Acid battery in its Discharge Current ability. But the reason you don't want to use a Lead/Acid charger on a Lithium Battery because Lead/Acid chargers have odd CHARGING MODES... such as "De-sulphate Mode" which spikes voltages very high in a lead/acid battery so that is can remove the Sulphation that occurs on the Lead plates. Sulphation DOES NOT occur with a Lithium Battery. So you don't want to put a Lead/Acid type charger that has these Desuphate modes on a Lithium Battery, and in fact it similar to the fact that you do not want to use a Flooded Lead Acid charger on your AGM battery. So its not as you present it. We just say to use a Lithium Charger if you need to charge a Lithium Battery on a charger. But in your Car it works perfectly fine to charge it because a Cars charging system does not have these odd modes you find on a charger.

You let the battery completely discharge. Dead.

Well I think you are speaking of older Lithium Batteries here. For example earlier Lithium Batteries such as Braille Batteries did not and still DO NOT have the over-discharge protections as well as the other protections we offer. The batteries we are putting forth here do have a full BMS system that protects the battery from over-charge, over-discharge as well as short-circuiting. But to also clarify this more. Lead/Acid, Nickle Cadium, and any other Battery Chemistries suffer the exact same issues, if you over-discharge any battery below its rated voltages then the battery cells are damaged. But this plays into a very important benefit of Lithium OVER Lead/Acid.... Our battery CAN'T over-discharge where as a LEad/Acid battery can. Our battery just puts itself to sleep, and wont' be damaged. The number one cause of damage to any battery Lead or Lithium is over-discharge.... our batteries eliminate that completely.


Battery too hot. Dead
Again this is inaccurate.... when dealing with the Race Vehicles they run much hotter and the Lithium Batteries aren't dying. Yes heat can damage both Lead and Lithium batteries and degrade their performance... people in Florida and Deserts can verify that... but it is not only a Lithium Issue. Its also a Lead issue. Also Lead can't handle high vibration long. Lithium has no liquid inside (few tablespoons) so no vibration issues... that is why it is used in so many race cars also.

Battery too cold. Not enough power.
This is accurate... but we are talking in temperatures at close to or below freezing such as snow and such. This is because due to the temperature of the cell pack inside it creates resistance which will decrease the INITIAL start performance. But again I think you are speaking of older Lithium Batteries or exceptionally small/compact Lithium Batteries from the past. Our 40Ah battery will absolutely have no issues in below freezing weather. I was in the mountains at 4 to 15 degrees for two weeks in Mammoth Mountain Snowboarding, Toyota Tacoma outside uncovered and no issues. But 40Ah is a substantial lithium battery with about 1600 cranking amps. IT not the small lithium battery people were using for the ultimate in weight loss as they did a few years back. This is an actual automotive battery. Last, this is a performance battery that we market to Performance Cars. We are not marketing this to Pick-Up Trucks in Chicago. So we don't expect them to see that type of use. I think 60Ah would be required to full time Winter use. But that isn't our game. We sell to Performance Sports Cars.

No internal cell management system: Dead
Not accuate here... we have plenty of un-protected batteriwa that have lasted over 7 years... this depends if the User has let the battery over-discharge. But as I said our Battery for Automobiles have the over-discharge protection so this is never and issue. Again I think you are speaking for the older Lithium Batteries that is not relevant to what we are offering here as our Automobile Specific RE-START battery.

And when I say dead, I mean the battery is junk. Buy a new one.
This can be accurate if you have severely damaged Lithium battery... .but I still think you are not relaying this properly... We have a few dead, as in junk, lead/Acid batteries also, it has to be in the context of how severe the damage was to the battery. And again our battery has protections so none of these issues to even be allowed to happen. So lets qualify this by saying you are talking and un-protected, severely damaged Lithium battery.

Even with proper treatment, Lithium can only be expected to last 6-8 years. If you treated a lead battery this well it would last up to 12 years.
Inaccurate in todays market... Please note that even with the newer Alternator have specific charging curves for certain types of Lead/acid Battery FLA vs. AGM. vs GEL... there are still batteries only lasting on average about 3 years in the Lead/Acid Market. The quality of Lead/Acid has dropped so dramatically in the last 6 years that it appears almost intentional built-in obsolescence. The lead plate are significantly thinner now, and I can't even recall 12 years out of lead acid batteries. Optimas get like 2 to 3 year nowadays since they moved to Mexico. Its a fact lithium has twice the cycles of lead/acid

Now AntiGravity seems like a reputable company because they actually put a Battery cell management system on their battery. MANY 12v lithium battery mfrs are crooks and do not do this. And if this system fails it's covered under warranty (prorated) So props to them. However, it's not user accessible so if a CELL fails the entire battery is still junk. You cannot just replace the bad cell.
That would be covered under warranty for our batteries. Also want to clarify that "bad-cell" thing is not really a relevant issue in today market if using Grade-A cells from a reputable manufacturer. Todays cells are much better than just a few years back. The most relevant issue is the quality of the BMS (Battery Management System). We are not worried about the failures of cells, again if that occured its not a Customer problem.. thats a manufacturing issue and on use.

They also seem to include a partial over-discharge protection system. But over-discharge is NOT covered under warranty.
A couple thing here
We actually have a complete protection system. So the user CAN'T over-discharge the battery. And YES our Warranty says we do not warranty for over-discharge, but that is only applicable to INTENTIONAL over-discharge or mis-use. As I said our battery can't be over-discharged... but we found if you intentionally keep pressing the RE-START button to wake up the battery for the emergency start, then wait for it to cut-off, then press the button to wake it up again... and do that over-and over just to discharge the battery then that is a mis-use of the feature because they person is intentionally messing around and trying to over -discharge the battery. Our Battery Management and RE-START built-in Jump Starting is a emergency feature to be used to RE-START the car in event of an emergency. It is not intended to be abused to keep pressing the button to get the battery to over-discharge after 20 more presses. So that is why we put that in warranty.

IMO for a lithium battery to be ready for prime time mass 12v automotive adoption, It would need a thermal management system (for cold climates) a battery cell management system that indicates bad cells, full over-discharge protection, high voltage protection, and voltage spike protection.
Well...Prime time is here... The user does not need to know about the cell condition so I'm taking that off the table. Either the battery starts the car or it doesn't, its either bad or good it the bottom line for a Customer. In fact we are actually working a a Bluetooth version that would report on individual cell voltage.. but again not really necessary. With this current battery we have the full over-discharge protection already, we have the over-voltage protection already, we have the voltage spiking protection already... it is prime time.

Keep in mind this type of product may not interest people due to the higher initial cost... but overall its a better value when considering all the factors and IF you desire lightweight and built-in Jump Starting type feature. For economical battery purchases, or extreme cold weather then by all means Lead/Acid is the way to go. I just wanted to clarify your points because I don't think it was discussing the modern Lithium battery we produce. Just last year we sold about 4000 of our previous version. We are just introduing this to the Vette side of things. But if you go to Rennlist, the Porsche Forums we sold a tremendous amount there... because that is where we have marketed and we have a GT3RS car and the shop Car.... so on the Vette side we have not really pushed into that direct market. So that is why we are here.

andersnor

Just want the weight savings, I'm sadly all to familiar with most of the lithium style batteries, and want something with BMS and the wireless restart is temping. with 40ah you wont have issues with it draining so fast as well.

Car is primarly a track car, but its driven to the track, and sometimes have to take an overnight ferry to get there, this can trigger alarms while underway, so the restart button saves face in the morning when driving off.

Im overseas, so I want someone stateside to test/confirm so I can just do a dropin install

69427

As I mentioned earlier, I'm in the market for a lighter battery this season. The A-G ATX-12-HD-RS unit has caught my attention. I'd like your technical input here to see if this battery is a capable piece for my application. My antique (the '69 in my avatar) is used only in the summers, has minimal/no current drain during storage, but has a reasonably large engine to crank over. I have a PMGR starter in it for reduced current draw during cranking. My present battery is a 16# 360 CA ($30!!) unit that works quite well with this starter/engine combination. My only reason for looking for an alternative battery is weight reduction. Period. Your ATX-12 battery is advertised as 480 CA (33% more than my current battery). My starter obviously doesn't draw anywhere near that, but I am interested in a decent battery capacity to allow cranking for a reasonable time in the event of a flooded engine, etc. My question is, will this battery of yours work in my application (I'm willing to pay for a noticeable weight reduction for the car, but I'm not inclined to spend a few hundred dollars on a three pound paperweight)? Also, what's the (alternator) charging requirements/limits for these batteries?

Thanks for your input here.

JoesC5

I have an AutoZone 85_DLG in my C6 Z06. been in there for the past 8 years. weighs 32.24#, 625 CCA, 785 Cranking amps, 95 minute reserve, 3 year free replacement, + 2 years prorated warranty.

Cost is $165.

I keep a cheap $6 Harbor freight float charger on it as I seldom drive the car. But when I do drive the car, it's normally on long road trips where I want the battery to start the car 100% of the time, when I'm in the Black Hills or in the Smokey Mountains.

I just can't see the expense of the Lithium battery for general usage, especially at 3-4 times the cost, just to save some weight. No way a Lithium battery is going to be 30 pounds lighter than my 85-DLG.

But, if I'm on a road trip away from home, and I do end up needing a replacement battery, under warranty, there are plenty of AutoZones around.

I doubt that saving 25 pounds on the track would matter to me, as I'm not that good a driver. Spending that money on some lessons would do me more good.

0Antigravity

So while I think you would be okay from a general starting standpoint in regards to cranking power, this would be a small capacity battery to put in any street vehicle and that would be the main concern. Just to expand on your example if perhaps the engine becomes flooded or there's something else preventing the vehicle from running you're left with a very small capacity to work with in regards to getting out of that scenario, yes you have the re-start feature to work with but it's not a huge reserve and we'd always want something in place with a bigger capacity that is going to have the ability to get you restarted. I would lean more so to something like the ATX20-RS at the smallest if you're really looking to stay as small and light weight as possible.
In regards to charging these guys can accept up to 15v but normally your car will be putting out somewhere in the 14v range which is right in the batteries wheelhouse. If it is a concern or you're unsure about what output is the battery tracker would be a great tool to have to keep track of it.
Hopefully that makes sense but please feel free to email me directly if you have any questions chad@antigravitybatteries.com

mschuyler

Can you provide any info on the shelf life of batteries? Say I bought one in advance of needing it. How long could it sit before it needed attention? TIA.

0Antigravity

With any of our Re-Start line batteries we'd say easily 6 months as lithium has a much slower discharge rate in comparison to lead/acid and could even go much longer, but it's always good to exercise on the side of caution and would certainly be a good practice to be sure and check the battery once every couple of months if possible.

69427

I appreciate your prompt reply. I'll give the ATX20 model some thought. The additional weight is not a deal killer (about a pound IIRC).The price differential seems to be about another 20-25% though.

Can you be a bit more specific on the charging limit (specifically current)? What charging current (from the vehicle alternator) is safe/acceptable? I've got a small/lightweight alternator on the engine, and its max rated output current is 45A.

Thanks,
Mike

0Antigravity

Mike, Scott answering on this one. Chad answers most the others.

Just so you can better understand. The Cars Alternator is not really putting 45Amps to the Battery... that is the Output rated to power the Cars Accessories such as the lighting system, Car Stereo, A/C if it has it and other accessories. While the Current and Voltage may change during operation of the Alternator they will not adversely effect the battery at all... UNLESS you system is charging ABOVE 15v. That would NOT be normal for an Alternator in an vehicle to be putting out 15v unless something is going bad. It would also be bad for an AGM, FLA or other Lead Battery also. Older classics were usually in the mid 14v range when sending the charge to the Batteries. But the Lithium Battery can handle up to 15v and the Current output of any Car will not harm the battery. We have the battery in very high output Alternators for Baja Race trucks since they need very high output Alternators to power all the lights, fans and such that the Trophy Trucks and other off-road vehicles use. So don't worry about Amp/Current output from Alternator... if anything review you Voltage output from the Alternator.

69427

Scott, I appreciate you stepping in to answer my question, but it's not necessary to insult my intelligence in the process. I'm an electrical design engineer, with a crapload of years at one of the big three. I understand vehicle electrical systems. What I wanted to know was what is the maximum charging current that the battery in question (the one I'm contemplating buying) will safely handle. I don't run the lights, the stereo, the A/C, or the rear window defroster while I'm out on the track. What I do worry about is if I run the battery down a few volts trying to clear out a flooded engine situation, and then immediately hit the track at high speed (and high alternator RPM), I just wanted to be sure that if the alternator goes close to full field charging the battery, will that cause problems with the battery.

I gleaned a general answer from several of your comments, and it appears that the battery isn't hypersensitive to charging current (I have looked at other Lithium batteries that looked promising, but the maximum allowed charging current was rather small).

TrackAire

That too is my biggest question regarding a lithium....if discharged a little more than normal will pumping too many amps into them cause them to have an issue...with the worse case being fire. It is my understanding that the better lithiums have built in circuitry to protect from over charging and from being discharged too low. I ran the cheapest lithium I could find just to prove the concept on my track Vette (4 lb battery lol) and am amazed that it handles day to day driving chores even though I thought it would not.....just over 3 years of service so far. When the vehicle is not driven, it is kept on a lithium battery tender.

I am looking to move up to a unit with the built in circuitry I mentioned just to be on the safer side in case my alternator wigs out and over charges, etc.

0Antigravity

<p>Hi guys, Chad here, I think I understand the concern and what might not have been completely answered...So what we have going on here with the BMS (battery management system) in our batteries is that is does not allow the battery to get over discharged (among the other protections) so I think you were catching what Scott was explaining earlier in that as long as the battery is in a normal state and not over discharged it is not hypersensitive to the charging current and a good running alternator is not going to cause damage or hurt the battery in any way. To elaborate in your example, let's say it's flooded and the battery is brought down...even if it was brought down far enough to engage the sleep function where the Re-Start feature is needed to start the vehicle, it does so at a point where the battery is still in a good state (or normal if you will) where it is not over discharged. So what is important in regards to this is that the battery is never being allowed to get over discharged. Batteries without protections can be susceptible to this and getting damaged if they are put under the right conditions...or maybe a better term would be the wrong ones. But as the following example stated above from TrackAire, if they are maintained properly and kept in a good state they can still work great.-Chadchad@antigravitybatteries.com

0Antigravity

Scott answering...

Well, I certainly don't mean to insult anyone intelligence ever. Sorry you took offense at my answer, I wasn't attempting at all to be condescending.

But what I will say is that we are new to the forum, I do not know any of your backgrounds, so I will be answering the questions from the perspective that you or (whomever) is relatively new to Lithium. I will then try to answer in a manner that is digestible to even a layperson who does not know much about theirs Cars Charging system and just wants to know if our battery will work. Often I am also going to go a bit deeper into a question because I feel I am just putting out posts that will allow any who reads it to get a better grasp on Lithium and how it relates to a cars charging system.

The question I felt you posed was a variation of one of the most often asked questions... "Will this battery work with my high-output Alternator", and except for your alternator being a lower output it was the same question in general so I rambled about how a Cars system works and how our product can handle ANY alternator output. So I thought it would answer your question.

And last....to answer your question in a manner that might work better for you. The MAX charging rate we like to see on the battery is 1C.... so 1x the Amp Hour Capacity of the Battery. It can handle more than that actually, but I don't care and will always state a conservative number, and error on the side of safety. So the reason I do not like to express answers like this is because 98% of the persons reading this forum will not understand what 1C means in terms of charging batteries, nor will it allow them to make a decision on use in their particular car. It is much easier for me to state the easily understood answer which is that our Lithium Battery will work in your Vehicle even with a high-output alternator or low output alternator, and that the main concern is that you are using a 12v alternator and not a 16v alternator which are Drag Racing Alternators.

Dan_the_C5_Man

The vendor's replies to this thread have been nothing but clear and professional; don't let a few CF members with chips on their shoulder get you worked up.

May look into this battery - so far my small form-factor Braille clone is doing well, but I am always paranoid about getting stuck.

Redneck Slim

How about a bolt-in battery for the C5?

0Antigravity

The C5 had the side Mounts like the Group 75/78 (same batteries basically) then I think one year used the Group 86. So we don't have a "drop-in" fit for a side mount battery but there are some relatively simple work arounds. We don't have a specific side mount, but we are working on adapters, which adapt to side mount. We are looking to figure something for a clean, simple install for those side mount batteries and we will put up a post when we get it dialed. We already are working on some options.

We are looking to try to find a drop in solution for all the years. At the current time we have the H6 which is the drop in for the later models... but the C5 and side mounts are what we are working on.

Redneck Slim

Thanks.

5Axis

Need these in my offshore center console. When you guys getting in the marine industry?

deshapiro

Which model do you suggest for a 2019 ZR1, that won’t be tracked? Do you have a drop-in solution, or is it the same as any C7?

Thanks,
David