Front engine future
06-09-2019, 05:33 PM
#201
For the record, it was not you who I had the problem with the most, it was a couple of the other guys. You just chose to counter me and defend "arguing with each other" as the superior action VS "changing this thread back to telling stories that are relevant to the topic".
Smart move.
Smart move.
Last edited by bbbvettes.com; 06-09-2019 at 05:35 PM.
06-09-2019, 05:39 PM
#202
A debate is not an argument and is intellectually stimulating. If you're too thin-skinned to have a spirited debate then don't participate.
Last words to you as long as we're passing out recommendations, remain silent on threads you find distasteful and move on. It is not your place to moderate this forum and position yourself as some sort of arbitrator.
Last words to you as long as we're passing out recommendations, remain silent on threads you find distasteful and move on. It is not your place to moderate this forum and position yourself as some sort of arbitrator.
06-09-2019, 05:46 PM
#203
there is NOTHING intellectually stimulating about you guys debates, i learn nothing every time.
I learned something in that story you started to tell, too bad it was sarcastically ended so quickly.
You win... back to the insults.
Time to copy and paste stats from google about car's times.
I may as well read 0-60 times and lateral G readouts instead of come here
Have fun proving you guys can copy and paste commonly found info and then insult each other at the end.
Brilliant.
I learned something in that story you started to tell, too bad it was sarcastically ended so quickly.
You win... back to the insults.
Time to copy and paste stats from google about car's times.
I may as well read 0-60 times and lateral G readouts instead of come here
Have fun proving you guys can copy and paste commonly found info and then insult each other at the end.
Brilliant.
Last edited by bbbvettes.com; 06-09-2019 at 05:50 PM.
06-09-2019, 06:08 PM
#204
Race Director
^^^^
bbbvettes.com in his new role as peacekeeper of Corvette Forum.
bbbvettes.com in his new role as peacekeeper of Corvette Forum.
06-09-2019, 06:13 PM
#205
Safety Car
Member Since: Feb 2016
Location: Bainbridge Island WA
Posts: 4,980
Received 3,818 Likes
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Unlikely.
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06-09-2019, 06:24 PM
#206
Instructor
I remember back in the early 80's when I was replacing points in distributors with electronic modules and how revolutionary it was...soon to be followed with crank fired ignition systems in almost all vehicles. With the advancement of Computer controls throughout the automotive systems, coupled with the battery and electronic drive system enhancements, the day is coming that every brand on the planet will have a supercar/hypercar as all manufactures eventually have access to the technology and will chase consumers with price. What flavor you purchase will come down to brand loyalty and styling. This day is not too far away. How do you think Ferrari & Porsche feel about a Corvette that can match and beat the performance of their offerings that are hundreds of thousand of dollars more, and not just in sticker price, but in development costs. And don't be fooled by them thinking "but we have a better interior". Both Ferrari and Porsche have realized they have to sell more vehicles to earn more loyal customers. The day of winning with better performance and selling at a premium profit margin is coming to a close, as the performance delta is shrinking.
The way that Chevy is approaching this transition with the C8 is greatly appreciated by this poster. They are transitioning the platform in a thoughtful way to insure that everyone can afford to participate which should be applauded, not challenged. If the Engineers at General Motors need to evolve the platform to insure their success in the "Supercar on aisle 3" future, please do not throw mud at them for abandoning their heritage, as these changes most likely with allow the Corvette to survive, (again, just my opinion). I do not challenge the FE platform can't evolve as I think AWD through Electric Front Drive systems will not integrate well with the current chassis. If you truly love your Corvette, then trust there is a reason for every decision that is being made by a Company that is accountable to it's Management, Board Members and Shareholders, which includes selling 30-40K Corvettes a year for the next many years.
I understand the need for some to engage in debate, just for the sake of debate...I get it...and all are free to complain, especially on an open forum. My hope is that GM delivers us to the future with this platform, and look forward to a Corvette in my garage in 2029, right next to my 2019 ZR1...if I can convince myself that having 2 Corvettes at the same time is prudent.
Jeff
The way that Chevy is approaching this transition with the C8 is greatly appreciated by this poster. They are transitioning the platform in a thoughtful way to insure that everyone can afford to participate which should be applauded, not challenged. If the Engineers at General Motors need to evolve the platform to insure their success in the "Supercar on aisle 3" future, please do not throw mud at them for abandoning their heritage, as these changes most likely with allow the Corvette to survive, (again, just my opinion). I do not challenge the FE platform can't evolve as I think AWD through Electric Front Drive systems will not integrate well with the current chassis. If you truly love your Corvette, then trust there is a reason for every decision that is being made by a Company that is accountable to it's Management, Board Members and Shareholders, which includes selling 30-40K Corvettes a year for the next many years.
I understand the need for some to engage in debate, just for the sake of debate...I get it...and all are free to complain, especially on an open forum. My hope is that GM delivers us to the future with this platform, and look forward to a Corvette in my garage in 2029, right next to my 2019 ZR1...if I can convince myself that having 2 Corvettes at the same time is prudent.
Jeff
Last edited by orclubduck; 06-10-2019 at 08:38 AM.
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06-09-2019, 06:28 PM
#207
You know - it's kind of funny reading through this thread.
The C5, C6 & C7 ALL handle phenomenally well ! To get the Z51 / Z06 versions of one of these cars near it's handling limits on a public road is difficult at best (we won't go into if it's sane or stupid to even try). I'd be willing to bet that 80 - 90 percent of the owners of these cars have never gotten close to the limits of their cars (from a handling perspective).
The C7 is very close to 50 / 50 front / rear weight distribution - there isn't much you can do there... Now - if we take a look at the definition of Mid Engine - the generally accepted definition is that the centerline of the engine lies between the front and rear axles. Well - with the C7 - the engine is pushed pretty far back so that it's centerline is in fact behind the centerline of the front wheels... What pushing the engine back behind the passenger compartment does is to lower the polar moment of inertia, and that can be a good thing - particularly as far as response goes.
So to put it nicely - the C8 is almost certainly going to be able to run faster lap times than a similarly powered C7 with similar tire compounds, but the differences are probably NOT going to be huge. Assuming similar curb weights - the C8 will probably turn in a bit better, and will probably be able to put down power a bit better coming out of the corner, but if the engine behind the driver "design" was so dramatically much better - I guess that the ALMS races would all be won by those cars, and it would be pointless to even enter a C7 in Endurance races....
Please don't get me wrong - I'm not beating up on a car that hasn't yet been introduced, but the fact is the "bar" that the C5, C6 & C7 set Ain't Real Easy to get over. In the hands of someone who knows what they're doing - those cars are amazingly fast....I do believe that the C8 will be able to clear that bar - but I just don't think it's going to be dramatically faster...
The C5, C6 & C7 ALL handle phenomenally well ! To get the Z51 / Z06 versions of one of these cars near it's handling limits on a public road is difficult at best (we won't go into if it's sane or stupid to even try). I'd be willing to bet that 80 - 90 percent of the owners of these cars have never gotten close to the limits of their cars (from a handling perspective).
The C7 is very close to 50 / 50 front / rear weight distribution - there isn't much you can do there... Now - if we take a look at the definition of Mid Engine - the generally accepted definition is that the centerline of the engine lies between the front and rear axles. Well - with the C7 - the engine is pushed pretty far back so that it's centerline is in fact behind the centerline of the front wheels... What pushing the engine back behind the passenger compartment does is to lower the polar moment of inertia, and that can be a good thing - particularly as far as response goes.
So to put it nicely - the C8 is almost certainly going to be able to run faster lap times than a similarly powered C7 with similar tire compounds, but the differences are probably NOT going to be huge. Assuming similar curb weights - the C8 will probably turn in a bit better, and will probably be able to put down power a bit better coming out of the corner, but if the engine behind the driver "design" was so dramatically much better - I guess that the ALMS races would all be won by those cars, and it would be pointless to even enter a C7 in Endurance races....
Please don't get me wrong - I'm not beating up on a car that hasn't yet been introduced, but the fact is the "bar" that the C5, C6 & C7 set Ain't Real Easy to get over. In the hands of someone who knows what they're doing - those cars are amazingly fast....I do believe that the C8 will be able to clear that bar - but I just don't think it's going to be dramatically faster...
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bbbvettes.com (06-09-2019)
06-09-2019, 06:47 PM
#208
Race Director
^^^^
You can't use the ALMS as the standard for which layout (front/rear/mid) engine is superior. BOP (Balance of Performance) means that the rule book, to be kind, is fluid. When you legislate performance, you usually but not always get close racing but not REAL racing. The 2016 LeMans 24 hours proved that in spades. The Ford GT's and Ferraris drove away from the C7.R's and 911's like they were tied to a tree. FIA wanted a 50th anniversary replay of Ford/Ferrari and they legislated it to come true (unless, of course, you believe that Corvette Racing and Porsche became STUPID for the most important sports car race in the world).
PS. I would offer that the switch to mid-engine will make Corvette's performance easier to access.
PSS. Something that gets left out too often is how GREAT tires have become in the last 10 years. I have a friend with a 2009 C6 (Z51). When it came time to replace his tires for the 4th time, he put on Michelin Pilot Super Sport runflats (C7 Stingray tires) and called me and told me it is like a DIFFERENT car. Anyone that lived with the old Goodyear "runcraps" knows what he's talking about.
You can't use the ALMS as the standard for which layout (front/rear/mid) engine is superior. BOP (Balance of Performance) means that the rule book, to be kind, is fluid. When you legislate performance, you usually but not always get close racing but not REAL racing. The 2016 LeMans 24 hours proved that in spades. The Ford GT's and Ferraris drove away from the C7.R's and 911's like they were tied to a tree. FIA wanted a 50th anniversary replay of Ford/Ferrari and they legislated it to come true (unless, of course, you believe that Corvette Racing and Porsche became STUPID for the most important sports car race in the world).
PS. I would offer that the switch to mid-engine will make Corvette's performance easier to access.
PSS. Something that gets left out too often is how GREAT tires have become in the last 10 years. I have a friend with a 2009 C6 (Z51). When it came time to replace his tires for the 4th time, he put on Michelin Pilot Super Sport runflats (C7 Stingray tires) and called me and told me it is like a DIFFERENT car. Anyone that lived with the old Goodyear "runcraps" knows what he's talking about.
Last edited by jimmyb; 06-09-2019 at 06:58 PM.
06-09-2019, 06:50 PM
#209
Advanced
The new C8 verses the C7
I am a female corvette owner and have been since 1974.
I know there will be no more C7’s and not really concerned about space. I just enjoy driving my corvette and would never track my car. I have a ZR1 now. I hope for the sake of dealers with so many C7’s, maybe the people that don’t like the C8 will go buy some of those cars. I would like room for folding chairs if you want to go to a cruise in and jabber with your friends and walk around looking at everybody’s cars. I was also sick of reading about the same thing over and over. I understand everyone’s concern about space but we will just have to wait and see when the magic showing will be July 18th.
And also keep the car you have and love it and not worry about the C8. We don’t have to buy it. Nobody is forcing you.
I too wish they would build C7’s along side the C8, it was mentioned once but our C7 is coming to its end. Sadly but true.. so let’s talk about something else interesting to read. Like I bet Rick Hendrick will get the last C7 black Z06 for 1,000,000,000. For charity. Not sure I did the 1 million dollars right as I don’t know that figure. But that is fine. Will be at the Barrett-Jackson auction. We can’t change anything GM is doing, their choice.
I know there will be no more C7’s and not really concerned about space. I just enjoy driving my corvette and would never track my car. I have a ZR1 now. I hope for the sake of dealers with so many C7’s, maybe the people that don’t like the C8 will go buy some of those cars. I would like room for folding chairs if you want to go to a cruise in and jabber with your friends and walk around looking at everybody’s cars. I was also sick of reading about the same thing over and over. I understand everyone’s concern about space but we will just have to wait and see when the magic showing will be July 18th.
And also keep the car you have and love it and not worry about the C8. We don’t have to buy it. Nobody is forcing you.
I too wish they would build C7’s along side the C8, it was mentioned once but our C7 is coming to its end. Sadly but true.. so let’s talk about something else interesting to read. Like I bet Rick Hendrick will get the last C7 black Z06 for 1,000,000,000. For charity. Not sure I did the 1 million dollars right as I don’t know that figure. But that is fine. Will be at the Barrett-Jackson auction. We can’t change anything GM is doing, their choice.
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06-09-2019, 08:17 PM
#210
So you think Supra and Z4 will be failures in the market? Maybe Corvette will abandon the reasonably priced FE sports car market because it cannot compete with Supra and Z4. That would at least make some sense as opposed to the "logic" others are deluding themselves with around here.
06-10-2019, 12:34 AM
#211
06-10-2019, 12:38 AM
#212
I am a female corvette owner and have been since 1974.
I know there will be no more C7’s and not really concerned about space. I just enjoy driving my corvette and would never track my car. I have a ZR1 now. I hope for the sake of dealers with so many C7’s, maybe the people that don’t like the C8 will go buy some of those cars. I would like room for folding chairs if you want to go to a cruise in and jabber with your friends and walk around looking at everybody’s cars. I was also sick of reading about the same thing over and over. I understand everyone’s concern about space but we will just have to wait and see when the magic showing will be July 18th.
And also keep the car you have and love it and not worry about the C8. We don’t have to buy it. Nobody is forcing you.
I too wish they would build C7’s along side the C8, it was mentioned once but our C7 is coming to its end. Sadly but true.. so let’s talk about something else interesting to read. Like I bet Rick Hendrick will get the last C7 black Z06 for 1,000,000,000. For charity. Not sure I did the 1 million dollars right as I don’t know that figure. But that is fine. Will be at the Barrett-Jackson auction. We can’t change anything GM is doing, their choice.
I know there will be no more C7’s and not really concerned about space. I just enjoy driving my corvette and would never track my car. I have a ZR1 now. I hope for the sake of dealers with so many C7’s, maybe the people that don’t like the C8 will go buy some of those cars. I would like room for folding chairs if you want to go to a cruise in and jabber with your friends and walk around looking at everybody’s cars. I was also sick of reading about the same thing over and over. I understand everyone’s concern about space but we will just have to wait and see when the magic showing will be July 18th.
And also keep the car you have and love it and not worry about the C8. We don’t have to buy it. Nobody is forcing you.
I too wish they would build C7’s along side the C8, it was mentioned once but our C7 is coming to its end. Sadly but true.. so let’s talk about something else interesting to read. Like I bet Rick Hendrick will get the last C7 black Z06 for 1,000,000,000. For charity. Not sure I did the 1 million dollars right as I don’t know that figure. But that is fine. Will be at the Barrett-Jackson auction. We can’t change anything GM is doing, their choice.
06-10-2019, 12:52 AM
#213
As I said well above, a 2014 Porsche 911GT3 is considerably faster around a track than a base 2020 911. They are members of different 911 gens, but both 911s. PCMIII is one very confused person.
06-10-2019, 06:54 AM
#214
Being world class... Honestly, GM has been saying for a long time that the Corvette is world-class. And performance-wise it always is. It's also always almost there in everything else. And that's just fine most of the time.
The affordable part. True for North America. Used to be true for Europe. It used to be that the Corvette was the relatively affordable option. Now, pricing out a Z06 with manual transmission I'm too close to what the R8 costs. The corvette is affordable compared to a Ferrari but that's about it.
Nobody is buying a Corvette because it is FE. Nobody will be buying a Corvette because it is ME. They will be buying a Corvette because it is a Corvette or, in some cases, because it is the affordable alternative to what they would rather have.
06-10-2019, 08:57 AM
#215
I am a female corvette owner and have been since 1974.
I know there will be no more C7’s and not really concerned about space. I just enjoy driving my corvette and would never track my car. I have a ZR1 now. I hope for the sake of dealers with so many C7’s, maybe the people that don’t like the C8 will go buy some of those cars. I would like room for folding chairs if you want to go to a cruise in and jabber with your friends and walk around looking at everybody’s cars. I was also sick of reading about the same thing over and over. I understand everyone’s concern about space but we will just have to wait and see when the magic showing will be July 18th.
And also keep the car you have and love it and not worry about the C8. We don’t have to buy it. Nobody is forcing you.
I too wish they would build C7’s along side the C8, it was mentioned once but our C7 is coming to its end. Sadly but true.. so let’s talk about something else interesting to read. Like I bet Rick Hendrick will get the last C7 black Z06 for 1,000,000,000. For charity. Not sure I did the 1 million dollars right as I don’t know that figure. But that is fine. Will be at the Barrett-Jackson auction. We can’t change anything GM is doing, their choice.
I know there will be no more C7’s and not really concerned about space. I just enjoy driving my corvette and would never track my car. I have a ZR1 now. I hope for the sake of dealers with so many C7’s, maybe the people that don’t like the C8 will go buy some of those cars. I would like room for folding chairs if you want to go to a cruise in and jabber with your friends and walk around looking at everybody’s cars. I was also sick of reading about the same thing over and over. I understand everyone’s concern about space but we will just have to wait and see when the magic showing will be July 18th.
And also keep the car you have and love it and not worry about the C8. We don’t have to buy it. Nobody is forcing you.
I too wish they would build C7’s along side the C8, it was mentioned once but our C7 is coming to its end. Sadly but true.. so let’s talk about something else interesting to read. Like I bet Rick Hendrick will get the last C7 black Z06 for 1,000,000,000. For charity. Not sure I did the 1 million dollars right as I don’t know that figure. But that is fine. Will be at the Barrett-Jackson auction. We can’t change anything GM is doing, their choice.
06-10-2019, 09:05 AM
#216
Instructor
When you are ready to remove the clubs, you simply press the "Club Removal" button on the key fob. An electric motor slowly pushes the clubs back out of the tube while one of several random messages is heard over the Bose 27 speaker sound system. During the couple times I saw them testing the system I heard the following phrases:
"Ain't no Porsche doing this..."
"Suck it Ferrari..."
"And it still has room for my white tennis shoes and floral print shirt..."
"Real sports cars have two pedals AND two sets of clubs inside..."
#FirstWorldProblems
06-10-2019, 09:13 AM
#217
Banned Scam/Spammer
I remember back in the early 80's when I was replacing points in distributors with electronic modules and how revolutionary it was...soon to be followed with crank fired ignition systems in almost all vehicles. With the advancement of Computer controls throughout the automotive systems, coupled with the battery and electronic drive system enhancements, the day is coming that every brand on the planet will have a supercar/hypercar as all manufactures eventually have access to the technology and will chase consumers with price. What flavor you purchase will come down to brand loyalty and styling. This day is not too far away. How do you think Ferrari & Porsche feel about a Corvette that can match and beat the performance of their offerings that are hundreds of thousand of dollars more, and not just in sticker price, but in development costs. And don't be fooled by them thinking "but we have a better interior". Both Ferrari and Porsche have realized they have to sell more vehicles to earn more loyal customers. The day of winning with better performance and selling at a premium profit margin is coming to a close, as the performance delta is shrinking.
The way that Chevy is approaching this transition with the C8 is greatly appreciated by this poster. They are transitioning the platform in a thoughtful way to insure that everyone can afford to participate which should be applauded, not challenged. If the Engineers at General Motors need to evolve the platform to insure their success in the "Supercar on aisle 3" future, please do not throw mud at them for abandoning their heritage, as these changes most likely with allow the Corvette to survive, (again, just my opinion). I do not challenge the FE platform can't evolve as I think AWD through Electric Front Drive systems will not integrate well with the current chassis. If you truly love your Corvette, then trust there is a reason for every decision that is being made by a Company that is accountable to it's Management, Board Members and Shareholders, which includes selling 30-40K Corvettes a year for the next many years.
I understand the need for some to engage in debate, just for the sake of debate...I get it...and all are free to complain, especially on an open forum. My hope is that GM delivers us to the future with this platform, and look forward to a Corvette in my garage in 2029, right next to my 2019 ZR1...if I can convince myself that having 2 Corvettes at the same time is prudent.
Jeff
The way that Chevy is approaching this transition with the C8 is greatly appreciated by this poster. They are transitioning the platform in a thoughtful way to insure that everyone can afford to participate which should be applauded, not challenged. If the Engineers at General Motors need to evolve the platform to insure their success in the "Supercar on aisle 3" future, please do not throw mud at them for abandoning their heritage, as these changes most likely with allow the Corvette to survive, (again, just my opinion). I do not challenge the FE platform can't evolve as I think AWD through Electric Front Drive systems will not integrate well with the current chassis. If you truly love your Corvette, then trust there is a reason for every decision that is being made by a Company that is accountable to it's Management, Board Members and Shareholders, which includes selling 30-40K Corvettes a year for the next many years.
I understand the need for some to engage in debate, just for the sake of debate...I get it...and all are free to complain, especially on an open forum. My hope is that GM delivers us to the future with this platform, and look forward to a Corvette in my garage in 2029, right next to my 2019 ZR1...if I can convince myself that having 2 Corvettes at the same time is prudent.
Jeff
06-10-2019, 10:03 AM
#218
Melting Slicks
It will become increasingly difficult for the manufacturers of these cars justifying their ludicrous pricing because they have soft leather, hand stitching, and are just so special. The time is near when a traditional Ferrari die hard reads the writing on the wall and questions why he considers a sports car that is flatly outperformed by another that costs 2 or 3 hundred thousand dollars less.
Or could it possibly be that if you have the Corvette money, you'll pay for the Corvette, and likewise if you have Ferrari money, you're buying the Ferrari? Much like $30k might not be that big a deal to you, to get something you consider nicer, $300k isn't a lot of money to many Ferrari buyers.
Yeah, the sound is a biggie, and while I don't have the numbers in front of me, I am operating under the impression that the overwhelming majority of Corvettes are sold in the US. Obviously it being an American car wouldn't matter so much to most Germans or Brits or Japanese.
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BEAR-AvHistory (06-10-2019)
06-10-2019, 10:33 AM
#219
Banned Scam/Spammer
So when you giving up the Corvette for a Mustang or a Camaro? Seems a bit ridiculous to spend $60k on a car with a similar powered engine as one that comes in cars in the low $30s, right?
Or could it possibly be that if you have the Corvette money, you'll pay for the Corvette, and likewise if you have Ferrari money, you're buying the Ferrari? Much like $30k might not be that big a deal to you, to get something you consider nicer, $300k isn't a lot of money to many Ferrari buyers.
Yeah, the sound is a biggie, and while I don't have the numbers in front of me, I am operating under the impression that the overwhelming majority of Corvettes are sold in the US. Obviously it being an American car wouldn't matter so much to most Germans or Brits or Japanese.
Or could it possibly be that if you have the Corvette money, you'll pay for the Corvette, and likewise if you have Ferrari money, you're buying the Ferrari? Much like $30k might not be that big a deal to you, to get something you consider nicer, $300k isn't a lot of money to many Ferrari buyers.
Yeah, the sound is a biggie, and while I don't have the numbers in front of me, I am operating under the impression that the overwhelming majority of Corvettes are sold in the US. Obviously it being an American car wouldn't matter so much to most Germans or Brits or Japanese.
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jefnvk (06-10-2019)
