pdiddy972

Should I have said skilled, instead of ballsy? Or on 4 wheels?

Perhaps. ;-)

VetteDrmr

Fasttoys,

If you linked that article here for us, thanks!

If you wrote that article, THANK YOU!!!


Foosh,

I just hope my experience with DCTs are better than yours. I'm looking forward to a different experience in the C8 (assuming I can afford it) than the manuals in my C5 and C7. Hopefully just as enjoyable, but obviously different.

Only 4 more days!

Have a good one,
Mike

AORoads

or jim clark in the rain, but no in-car then.

Skullbussa

Sorry guys, not true. Read the article here. PDK is coming to the GT4 although not initially available.

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/pors...-drive-review/

SouthernSon

Ahhh. So you are referring to a car that was in testing but not yet currently available? quote:....

"The six-speed manual is fun, say the Porsche engineers, but the PDK is fast. No one will confirm it on the record, but it's whispered a PDK-equipped 718 Cayman GT4 has already lapped the Nordschleife seven to eight seconds quicker than the manual car."

Skullbussa

crabman - my experiences are exactly like yours. Not all TC autos are created the same, and the ZF8 is the best I have ever driven. But even then, each automaker who uses that transmission has variable levels of success tuning it to the car. There is a lot of marketing baloney that GM and others have tried to pass-off about "faster than DCT" but any reasonable person who drives a DCT car vs a TC Auto can immediately tell the difference. The DCT is more direct, more visceral, more responsive and with that, of course, comes a little more raw-feeling that some people don't like. I love it.

Rinaldo Catria

All depends on what the definition of “same thing” is..

Reliable and good for pulling things.

More fun but high maintenance.

vndkshn

Having witnessed this (my daughter has a claim into Ford to buy back her car), I'm convinced the issue is in the programing. I think it's partially in the interaction of the trans and engine (cutting engine power/output during the shift, the timing is off on that at normal driving speeds/conditions, it results in a weird jerk during shifting, almost like two shifts) combined with just faulty logic that causes wear issues on the clutch. I saw the first clutch that came out my daughter's car and it looked exactly like a clutch that had been slipping. The second time they replaced the clutch and some transmission control unit (the class action seems to revolve around these two items specifically). Third time was the control unit again (and no change in the way the car drove). Fourth time they magically couldn't reproduce the issue despite us seeing it a mile down the road.

It got her through the end of undergrad and through law school driving 90 miles each way every day, so at least it did it's job.

My number one concern with DCT in the C8 "did they get the programing right?" If not, it could blow up in their faces quick.

Bill Dearborn

What makes a manual non boring? Nothing. They all have the same boring non boring attributes. You can shift all of them manually the only difference is if you are moving a stick around or pulling on paddles. Same exercise just different location. TC auto's have two ways to shift manually through a stick on the floor or with the paddles. Who gives a crap when it comes right down to it. The biggest advantage of the DCT is it doesn't have a torque converter. It isn't a slush box. It's biggest weakness is it doesn't a have torque converter so it doesn't get the extra gear ratio that a torque converter provides. If you aren't doing an initial high acceleration launch, slowing inching into a space or pulling a heavy load you don't need the torque converter. Except for those conditions either the DCT or manual transmission will do the job better. If you need fast positive up and down shifts then the DCT out performs the manual box unless you have one of the few automated manuals which does the shifting and clutch application for you if you want it to.

If you consider pumping a clutch and moving a stick on the floor around less boring than pulling on the paddles to shift the transmission you are missing the fun part of driving and controlling the car. It isn't about how you do the shifting it is about doing it so it makes the car perform better. Zipping around town and doing quick shifts at mid level rpms at less than wide open throttle is not the point.

Bill

Skullbussa

OK, so Porsche developed a PDK-equipped GT4 and is in the process of testing it around a track but they're not going to actually build it? Sounds like a colossal waste of resources, doesn't it?
Let me ask you this, when was the last time there was a manual-only Porsche?

OnPoint

I expect there will be a large number of Corvette guys who have only known how TC autos feel, and have never driven or lived with a DCT, that are going to bitch to high heaven about how the DCT in the C8 operates.

Fully expect to see a plethora of bitch threads in here by these guys. And if GM doesn't nail the tuning of this DCT unit - it'll be a veritable shitstorm in here.

That said - I'm one actually looking forward to it (and currently own two manual trans Corvettes), and hope they get it dialed in well.

crabman

It always surprises me that people fall for that kind of meaningless stat which has no measurable objective standard. It goes hand in hand with torque converter lockup numbers which are always given as a value derived from idealized driving rather than what is experienced in actual driving. I think these things are easily passed off because in the US a performance DCT is outside of the experience of the majority of drivers. Even here on this forum in every one of these DCT threads there are responses where I can tell the person clearly has almost no experience with a DCT, perhaps none at all, but they are posting what I suspect was gleaned from a vicarious perusal of other internet experts posting on various forums who also have never driven a DCT.

I any event before too long the car will be in owners hands and the misinformation going to be displaced by the truth: DCTs aren't perfect, they most def have quirks, but they're a better mousetrap for a performance car than an TC automatic despite their limitations. I'd rather have a stick as I said before because this will be strictly a fun car but if I cant then it's DCT all the way. There is a reason Porsche went to PDK almost everywhere but the Cayenne, Porsche owners are a loyal group often owning more than one and once you've had a decent DCT the Tiptronic doesn't look so good anymore.

Foosh

Wrong, personal preference leads to perceptions in some that manual's are less boring and a resultant more enjoyable experience. What makes red better than blue? Answer, one likes red better, and it is more pleasing to them.

You can argue objective criteria until you are blue in the face, but personal preference drives perception, and perception is the reality for any given individual. You can't define for other people what part of driving and controlling a car makes it most enjoyable.

There are people like me who have considerable experience with both, and no matter how hard I try, I can't enjoy paddles as much as I enjoy using a clutch pedal and manual shifter.

The objective criteria are often meaningless in terms of what makes a more enjoyable driving experience for any given individual.

vndkshn

Funny enough, your last paragraph kinda proves the point about manuals. I'm sure you are aware of what happens with a manual transmission when you come into a corner at the track that requires a downshift. Yeah, with the synchronizers in there, you don't need to double clutch, and if you get it done quick enough you might not need to rev-match. But, it is highly likely you are going to cause the rear to lock up a little (or a lot) and that destabilizes the car if you don't rev-match. The problem for some of us with things like DCT/SMG and even the auto rev-match is it takes that "fun of driving" part completely out of it and let's face it, you aren't really "controlling the car" because the computer is controlling part of it for you. Finger flip or not to downshift, the computer will decide if your downshift is appropriate (ie, no over-rev) and execute all of the steps to do it. That's not how I would defining "controlling the car".

Then leave the track and start driving around town. Sure, some prefer autos in that case and yes, that is what a DCT can do, some of them well, some... not so well. Me, if I am not in my truck, I'd prefer to drive a manual. The one vehicle I own that has paddles (granted, it's an auto with paddles, but the point I am about to make applies), I've used the paddles maybe 5 times in 2 years in driving around town. IF I buy a car with DCT, I'm sure it will be the same. I drove a friend's M3 with SMG around for 4 months, don't think I really ever used the paddles in normal driving. When I drove his M3 with DCT for a few weeks, same story. And while both cars were faster than my M3 with a regular old manual, I preferred driving my car.

Back at the track, coming into turn 12 at COTA and having to downshift from 5th to 2nd (hitting each gear along the way, not skipping) is just a total blast, I really don't want to lose that.

SouthernSon

That is not the fun part he is addressing. Controlling the car is a lot more than simply shifting a manual. I understand the fun part of complete interaction with the car. There are times that can be great when perfectly matching brake, shift, turn and track out. But, there are other times that a turn really gets too busy and eliminating as much as one can is very desirable.

Foosh

The irony of the above is that 99% of these cars will never see a track. Yes, in a track car, give me the DCT. In my fun street car, I want a manual, and flipping paddles is no substitute for the enjoyment I get out of it.

However, I will add that auto rev-match has significantly minimized the too-busy part on a race track. I felt much less stressed driving the C7 M7 on a track than I did in my C6 Z06.

Fogboundturtle

"Back in my days, I had to walk to school in 10 feet of snow bare feet to go to school"

This is what this thread is turning into. I never see a group of individuals so resistant to change. Cars are getting to the point where they need all the nannies in order to keep on the car on the road/track. For every owner who knows what they are doing, there is a thousand who has no clue. To expect "The casual" to comply to your ideal of what a "real driver" should be is ridiculous. DCT is a positive change for the vehicle. I don't know how anyone would see this has a negative. This is coming form a M7 owner. I am not ashamed to say that I use the Rev Match option all the time. It's not that I don't know how to do it, it just more convenient to let the care do it.

If I buy a C8, I won't care if it has a DCT. I will embrace that change because I know that transmission is going to be faster and more efficient that I could ever be with a shift stick and 3 pedals. The stigma that Corvette is an old man car is not something that is going to go away with thread like this. It only amplifies that the car requires a "rejuvenation" because soon all the current Corvette owner will be dead there will be nobody left to buy the car.

vndkshn

Foosh nails it.

But my point, you can't say "controlling the car" when the computer is controlling an important aspect of it (gear selection). And I gave an example of that "too busy" turn.... it's still more enjoyable. Turn 15 is another. Coming into turn 4 at COTA, hauling ***, lots of transition in direction, still need to brake and downshift or carry a long gear through 5 and likely 6. I've done them in DCTs, some of the best, still more fun and I felt more "in control" of what the car was doing with a manual.

vndkshn

I'd bet 99.9%. I rarely see a Corvette at the track.

If I am racing, like real racing (wheel to wheel or time trial), then yes the DCT is the way to go. HPDE? Nah, I'm not racing anyone and I'm just practicing all of the skills, which I include shifting a manual as part of that. I wish my actual race car could be a DCT, but it is banned by the rules.

Iker

I have the feeling that in the end we will be surprised as there is no DCT!