Dual clutch concern
07-15-2019, 01:02 PM
#81
"Back in my days, I had to walk to school in 10 feet of snow bare feet to go to school"
This is what this thread is turning into. I never see a group of individuals so resistant to change. Cars are getting to the point where they need all the nannies in order to keep on the car on the road/track. For every owner who knows what they are doing, there is a thousand who has no clue. To expect "The casual" to comply to your ideal of what a "real driver" should be is ridiculous. DCT is a positive change for the vehicle. I don't know how anyone would see this has a negative. This is coming form a M7 owner. I am not ashamed to say that I use the Rev Match option all the time. It's not that I don't know how to do it, it just more convenient to let the care do it.
If I buy a C8, I won't care if it has a DCT. I will embrace that change because I know that transmission is going to be faster and more efficient that I could ever be with a shift stick and 3 pedals. The stigma that Corvette is an old man car is not something that is going to go away with thread like this. It only amplifies that the car requires a "rejuvenation" because soon all the current Corvette owner will be dead there will be nobody left to buy the car.
This is what this thread is turning into. I never see a group of individuals so resistant to change. Cars are getting to the point where they need all the nannies in order to keep on the car on the road/track. For every owner who knows what they are doing, there is a thousand who has no clue. To expect "The casual" to comply to your ideal of what a "real driver" should be is ridiculous. DCT is a positive change for the vehicle. I don't know how anyone would see this has a negative. This is coming form a M7 owner. I am not ashamed to say that I use the Rev Match option all the time. It's not that I don't know how to do it, it just more convenient to let the care do it.
If I buy a C8, I won't care if it has a DCT. I will embrace that change because I know that transmission is going to be faster and more efficient that I could ever be with a shift stick and 3 pedals. The stigma that Corvette is an old man car is not something that is going to go away with thread like this. It only amplifies that the car requires a "rejuvenation" because soon all the current Corvette owner will be dead there will be nobody left to buy the car.
You TOTALLY missed the point.
Last edited by Foosh; 07-15-2019 at 01:13 PM.
The following 3 users liked this post by Foosh:
07-15-2019, 01:05 PM
#82
No one has driven ( besides GM engineer) the C8 DCT. We have no idea of it's performance. You know that all DCT are not created the same and today's transmission rely heavily on software. Maybe GM knock it out of the park, maybe it's a lemon. To make a judgement on the DCT transmission at this moment in time is pointless.
07-15-2019, 01:16 PM
#83
I have a hell of a lot of time in the PDK, and there's no way GM is going to surpass what Porsche has done with that trannie. They've spent years refining it. It is fantastic, but boring to me. Thus, GM can knock it out of the park, and it will still be boring to many. It has nothing to do with resistance to change.
I'm a pilot. If I want to have fun in an airplane, I want something that is very aerobatic and that I have to totally hand-fly. For a trip, I'd want a different airplane with all the latest advanced tech. It's kinda like that.
I'm a pilot. If I want to have fun in an airplane, I want something that is very aerobatic and that I have to totally hand-fly. For a trip, I'd want a different airplane with all the latest advanced tech. It's kinda like that.
Last edited by Foosh; 07-15-2019 at 01:24 PM.
The following users liked this post:
FringbirdAloha (07-15-2019)
07-15-2019, 01:31 PM
#84
No, no, no. It has NOTHING to do with resistance to change. It has to do with, if I had my choice what would I prefer. I've purchased DCT cars. I was an early adopter of DCT. I fully recognize and embrace the advantages of DCT. I just don't get any additional enjoyment out of flipping paddles. I end up just leaving them in auto mode.
You TOTALLY missed the point.
You TOTALLY missed the point.
The following 3 users liked this post by sly1:
07-15-2019, 01:34 PM
#85
Melting Slicks
Couldn't agree more. I'm puzzled by posters who try to convince those who prefer MTs over DCTs, that DCTs are just as much fun to drive as MTs. No doubt for many they are, but for a substantial minority of drivers, DCTs are boring to drive and it has nothing to do with resistance to change.
The following 3 users liked this post by vndkshn:
07-15-2019, 01:51 PM
#86
No, no, no. It has NOTHING to do with resistance to change. It has to do with, if I had my choice what would I prefer. I've purchased DCT cars. I was an early adopter of DCT. I fully recognize and embrace the advantages of DCT. I just don't get any additional enjoyment out of flipping paddles. I end up just leaving them in auto mode.
You TOTALLY missed the point.
You TOTALLY missed the point.
Most of the car I have driven in my adult life were manual transmission. Having 3 pedals does not make the car "more fun" to me. This is a daily driver. Fortunately, I don't have a huge amount of traffic in the morning but if that was the case, I would have ditch that M7 a long time ago. The A10 in the C7 is faster and more efficient transmission that I ever will be. I expect the DCT to be the same. The fact that not 1 person who has driven the C8 (at least they are not telling) makes any discussion about the DCT equipped C8 just pure speculation, Maybe it will be the best thing since the PDK or it will a typical GM transmission which will be serviceable at best. Either way, it will be the only option available at launch.
07-15-2019, 02:12 PM
#87
No point in discussing it further. We completely disagree on all points. It's perfectly fine to express your preferences, but don't project them on others and contrive fallacious theories like "inability to accept change" to explain why everyone doesn't share your preference. That's just dumb.
BTW, there is no A10 in the C7.
BTW, there is no A10 in the C7.
Last edited by Foosh; 07-15-2019 at 02:16 PM.
The following 5 users liked this post by Foosh:
bgspot (07-16-2019),
rigelkentaurus (07-20-2019),
sly1 (07-15-2019),
ToddC7 (07-15-2019),
vndkshn (07-15-2019)
07-15-2019, 03:11 PM
#88
Race Director
No point in discussing it further. We completely disagree on all points. It's perfectly fine to express your preferences, but don't project them on others and contrive fallacious theories like "inability to accept change" to explain why everyone doesn't share your preference. That's just dumb.
BTW, there is no A10 in the C7.
BTW, there is no A10 in the C7.
It then gets compounded by technical "purists." Assuming a PDK (or even a well-sorted "instant lock up" TC deal) you really have to think of this tranny as a "hybrid." It will have fully-automatic capability of course, but will likely have responsiveness, control, and feel unlike any slushbox most all of us are used to.
It bears repeating who GM might be targeting with this move. I have not owned an automatic tranny car in nearly 4 decades. My C7 has a wonderful and easy to use M7 and I love it.
And yet, I am really excited and interested in how the C8 tranny works and feels. I think I will love it (although I'm sticking with the C7 for at least 4 more years...) And I think it will definitely add more to the fold than it loses (which has got to be what they have studied and are betting on).
3 more days
Last edited by Rapid Fred; 07-15-2019 at 03:12 PM.
07-15-2019, 04:00 PM
#90
Thanks Fred,
And my posts on this subject have consistently pointed out yet another complication. I am a person who fully "embraced change" to the extent that I chose to purchase a 2008 DCT E93 M3 over the available manual. I fully expected to love it, and did initially, but later found myself bored. I was OK with that because I had a Lotus Elise, which only was offered as a manual, as my fun car, and I found myself enjoying driving it much more.
Later, I fell head over heels with the F-Type as soon as it debuted and purchased it, which wasn't available as a manual at the time. It had a beautifully-tuned ZF8, which was almost universally praised as the equal of the PDK. I found that to be true, because I was storing a friend's 911 in my heated barn at the time, and he asked me to drive it routinely. That gave me a lot of time to compare the two back-to-back, and I found them basically equal in terms of performance and smoothness. But, the boredom quickly returned.
My cure was to purchase a C7 M7, and I've been happy ever since. So, to those long-time, manual purists, who believe you'll be happy as long as GM succeeds with a DCT equal to the PDK, maybe you will be, at least initially until the novelty wears off. I hope so for your sake, it's more long-lasting. However, don't be surprised if you're one of those that comes down with a case of boredom like I have twice now.
You mean like the insult to the new 2020 Porsche Cayman/Spyder GT4, which is getting rave reviews and is only available as a manual? Porsche designed this as a light, minimalist sports car, and is building it for now exclusively as manual because of the weight savings.
Based upon what I expect to see with the C8, I'm feeling fairly certain a GT4 is in my future.
And my posts on this subject have consistently pointed out yet another complication. I am a person who fully "embraced change" to the extent that I chose to purchase a 2008 DCT E93 M3 over the available manual. I fully expected to love it, and did initially, but later found myself bored. I was OK with that because I had a Lotus Elise, which only was offered as a manual, as my fun car, and I found myself enjoying driving it much more.
Later, I fell head over heels with the F-Type as soon as it debuted and purchased it, which wasn't available as a manual at the time. It had a beautifully-tuned ZF8, which was almost universally praised as the equal of the PDK. I found that to be true, because I was storing a friend's 911 in my heated barn at the time, and he asked me to drive it routinely. That gave me a lot of time to compare the two back-to-back, and I found them basically equal in terms of performance and smoothness. But, the boredom quickly returned.
My cure was to purchase a C7 M7, and I've been happy ever since. So, to those long-time, manual purists, who believe you'll be happy as long as GM succeeds with a DCT equal to the PDK, maybe you will be, at least initially until the novelty wears off. I hope so for your sake, it's more long-lasting. However, don't be surprised if you're one of those that comes down with a case of boredom like I have twice now.
Based upon what I expect to see with the C8, I'm feeling fairly certain a GT4 is in my future.
Last edited by Foosh; 07-15-2019 at 04:26 PM.
07-15-2019, 04:06 PM
#91
Thanks Fred,
And my posts on this subject have consistently pointed out yet another complication. I am a person who "fully embraced change" to the extent that I chose to purchase a 2008 DCT E93 M3 over the available manual. I fully expected to love it, and did initially, but later found myself bored. I was OK with that because I had a Lotus Elise, which only was offered as a manual, as my fun car, and I found myself enjoying driving it much more.
Later, I fell head over heels with the F-Type as soon as it debuted and purchased it, which wasn't available as a manual at the time. It had a beautifully-tuned ZF8, which was almost universally praised as the equal of the PDK. I found that to be true, because I was storing a friend's 911 in my heated barn at the time, and he asked me to drive it routinely. That gave me a lot of time to compare the two back-to-back, and I found them basically equal in terms of performance and smoothness. But, the boredom quickly returned.
My cure was to purchase a C7 M7, and I've been happy ever since. So, to those former manual purists who believe you'll be happy as long as GM succeeds with a DCT equal to the PDK, maybe you will be. I hope so for your sake. However, don't be surprised if you're one of those that comes down with a case of boredom like I have twice now.
And my posts on this subject have consistently pointed out yet another complication. I am a person who "fully embraced change" to the extent that I chose to purchase a 2008 DCT E93 M3 over the available manual. I fully expected to love it, and did initially, but later found myself bored. I was OK with that because I had a Lotus Elise, which only was offered as a manual, as my fun car, and I found myself enjoying driving it much more.
Later, I fell head over heels with the F-Type as soon as it debuted and purchased it, which wasn't available as a manual at the time. It had a beautifully-tuned ZF8, which was almost universally praised as the equal of the PDK. I found that to be true, because I was storing a friend's 911 in my heated barn at the time, and he asked me to drive it routinely. That gave me a lot of time to compare the two back-to-back, and I found them basically equal in terms of performance and smoothness. But, the boredom quickly returned.
My cure was to purchase a C7 M7, and I've been happy ever since. So, to those former manual purists who believe you'll be happy as long as GM succeeds with a DCT equal to the PDK, maybe you will be. I hope so for your sake. However, don't be surprised if you're one of those that comes down with a case of boredom like I have twice now.
I am in the camp of " I don't really care". I love my M7 but I would be happy with the automatic just as much. It doesn't make or break the car for me. Studies has shown that less and less car buyer even know how to drive manual anymore. Heck, even the latest generation don't have the same interest in car as the previous generation. I know people are holding on to the dream the Z06 and ZR1 C8 version will offer a manual option but it's probably not going to happen. GM is moving forward.
07-15-2019, 04:25 PM
#92
Instructor
Member Since: Sep 2013
Posts: 152
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks Fred,
And my posts on this subject have consistently pointed out yet another complication. I am a person who "fully embraced change" to the extent that I chose to purchase a 2008 DCT E93 M3 over the available manual. I fully expected to love it, and did initially, but later found myself bored. I was OK with that because I had a Lotus Elise, which only was offered as a manual, as my fun car, and I found myself enjoying driving it much more.
Later, I fell head over heels with the F-Type as soon as it debuted and purchased it, which wasn't available as a manual at the time. It had a beautifully-tuned ZF8, which was almost universally praised as the equal of the PDK. I found that to be true, because I was storing a friend's 911 in my heated barn at the time, and he asked me to drive it routinely. That gave me a lot of time to compare the two back-to-back, and I found them basically equal in terms of performance and smoothness. But, the boredom quickly returned.
My cure was to purchase a C7 M7, and I've been happy ever since. So, to those former manual purists who believe you'll be happy as long as GM succeeds with a DCT equal to the PDK, maybe you will be. I hope so for your sake. However, don't be surprised if you're one of those that comes down with a case of boredom like I have twice now.
You mean like the insult to the new 2020 Porsche Cayman/Spyder GT4, which is getting rave reviews and is only available as a manual? Porsche designed this as a light, minimalist sports car, and is building it for now exclusively as manual because of the weight savings.
Based upon what I expect to see with the C8, I'm feeling fairly certain a GT4 is in my future.
And my posts on this subject have consistently pointed out yet another complication. I am a person who "fully embraced change" to the extent that I chose to purchase a 2008 DCT E93 M3 over the available manual. I fully expected to love it, and did initially, but later found myself bored. I was OK with that because I had a Lotus Elise, which only was offered as a manual, as my fun car, and I found myself enjoying driving it much more.
Later, I fell head over heels with the F-Type as soon as it debuted and purchased it, which wasn't available as a manual at the time. It had a beautifully-tuned ZF8, which was almost universally praised as the equal of the PDK. I found that to be true, because I was storing a friend's 911 in my heated barn at the time, and he asked me to drive it routinely. That gave me a lot of time to compare the two back-to-back, and I found them basically equal in terms of performance and smoothness. But, the boredom quickly returned.
My cure was to purchase a C7 M7, and I've been happy ever since. So, to those former manual purists who believe you'll be happy as long as GM succeeds with a DCT equal to the PDK, maybe you will be. I hope so for your sake. However, don't be surprised if you're one of those that comes down with a case of boredom like I have twice now.
You mean like the insult to the new 2020 Porsche Cayman/Spyder GT4, which is getting rave reviews and is only available as a manual? Porsche designed this as a light, minimalist sports car, and is building it for now exclusively as manual because of the weight savings.
Based upon what I expect to see with the C8, I'm feeling fairly certain a GT4 is in my future.
The horse power is less then 400, so they have to go light weight on everything...
Do yourself a favor and buy a 911Gt3 or 911 Gt3 Rs...
Porsche did with the Cayman as what GM did with the Z28....
07-15-2019, 04:31 PM
#93
Race Director
Member Since: Oct 2000
Location: Deal's Gap 2004 NCM Motorsports track supporter
Posts: 13,915
Received 1,103 Likes
on
717 Posts
07-15-2019, 04:34 PM
#94
Race Director
"Back in my days, I had to walk to school in 10 feet of snow bare feet to go to school"
This is what this thread is turning into. I never see a group of individuals so resistant to change. Cars are getting to the point where they need all the nannies in order to keep on the car on the road/track. For every owner who knows what they are doing, there is a thousand who has no clue.
This is what this thread is turning into. I never see a group of individuals so resistant to change. Cars are getting to the point where they need all the nannies in order to keep on the car on the road/track. For every owner who knows what they are doing, there is a thousand who has no clue.
To expect "The casual" to comply to your ideal of what a "real driver" should be is ridiculous. DCT is a positive change for the vehicle. I don't know how anyone would see this has a negative. This is coming form a M7 owner. I am not ashamed to say that I use the Rev Match option all the time. It's not that I don't know how to do it, it just more convenient to let the care do it.
If I buy a C8, I won't care if it has a DCT. I will embrace that change because I know that transmission is going to be faster and more efficient that I could ever be with a shift stick and 3 pedals. The stigma that Corvette is an old man car is not something that is going to go away with thread like this. It only amplifies that the car requires a "rejuvenation" because soon all the current Corvette owner will be dead there will be nobody left to buy the car.
If I buy a C8, I won't care if it has a DCT. I will embrace that change because I know that transmission is going to be faster and more efficient that I could ever be with a shift stick and 3 pedals. The stigma that Corvette is an old man car is not something that is going to go away with thread like this. It only amplifies that the car requires a "rejuvenation" because soon all the current Corvette owner will be dead there will be nobody left to buy the car.
07-15-2019, 04:36 PM
#95
Ask any 911 owners and what they say about the Cayman GT4...”it’s just a Cayman”. At the end of the day it’s a 911 engine with 911 Gt3 suspension parts in a Cayman body...
The horse power is less then 400, so they have to go light weight on everything...
Do yourself a favor and buy a 911Gt3 or 911 Gt3 Rs...
Porsche did with the Cayman as what GM did with the Z28....
The horse power is less then 400, so they have to go light weight on everything...
Do yourself a favor and buy a 911Gt3 or 911 Gt3 Rs...
Porsche did with the Cayman as what GM did with the Z28....
07-15-2019, 05:10 PM
#96
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Dec 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 5,754
Received 536 Likes
on
279 Posts
St. Jude Donor '06-'08-'10-'11-'12-'13 '14-'15-'16-'17-'18-'19
Ding ding ding, we have a winner. One of the big things my C6 Z06 taught if me nothing else was that mega power, while it can be fun, was more than enough power for the street. Maybe even too much.
Last edited by ByByBMW; 07-15-2019 at 06:23 PM.
07-15-2019, 06:30 PM
#97
Safety Car
The manly man thing is fairly amusing to me, I'm old. Everyone I knew as a kid could drive a stick, my grandmother, my great aunt, everyone. I'm sure there was probably someone who didn't know how to drive one but I sure didn't know him/her. I'm not beating up stick drivers, I enjoy one in a sports car myself but I don't find driving a stick akin to taking down a mountain lion with my bare hands.
As to the latest thoughts in this thread you've got win the internet types, virgins talking about sex, and people who think their opinion is objectively correct. Not a good recipe for a helpful thread and there are not so many of each on these threads but it only takes a few to break a thread. Think about it, the question was what is it like to drive a DCT. Here is a copy/paste from the OP... All I want to know is what is it like driving a dual clutch is it simular to a TC auto besides the laggy paddle shifters or is it completely different... End copy/paste. Then look at the result, you've got some answering the question and more doing what? I'd be willing to make a bet there are a good number of posters on this thread that don't even know what the question was, it was just another opportunity to beat their drum.
As to the latest thoughts in this thread you've got win the internet types, virgins talking about sex, and people who think their opinion is objectively correct. Not a good recipe for a helpful thread and there are not so many of each on these threads but it only takes a few to break a thread. Think about it, the question was what is it like to drive a DCT. Here is a copy/paste from the OP... All I want to know is what is it like driving a dual clutch is it simular to a TC auto besides the laggy paddle shifters or is it completely different... End copy/paste. Then look at the result, you've got some answering the question and more doing what? I'd be willing to make a bet there are a good number of posters on this thread that don't even know what the question was, it was just another opportunity to beat their drum.
07-15-2019, 06:41 PM
#98
and let's face it, you aren't really "controlling the car" because the computer is controlling part of it for you. Finger flip or not to downshift, the computer will decide if your downshift is appropriate (ie, no over-rev) and execute all of the steps to do it. That's not how I would defining "controlling the car".
The following 3 users liked this post by Skullbussa:
07-15-2019, 07:10 PM
#99
Crabman,
As a valuable contributor here, you should know well that threads do morph, just like any conversation. Conversations would be pretty boring if everyone stuck strictly to whatever the starter chose to talk about. It's a good thing. Most of the more interesting threads are not the result of what an OP wrote, but when the topic branches out, and all angles of a subject are explored.
I do agree that the "manly" theory of manual preference is utterly stupid. However, that was laid on folks expressing manual preferences by people trying to diss them, and it reflects a sub-par intellect. It's right up there with the suggestion that people who love driving manuals are those incapable of "embracing change."
I suspect you're characterizing me as being in the "win the internet" camp. That's certainly a funny metaphor, but not a very accurate one. I do enjoy writing clearly and countering points I believe to be flawed or not well thought through. Practicing the art of writing clearly keeps one intellectually sharp. But, I'm sure as hell not trying to win anything here. That would be a fools errand.
As a valuable contributor here, you should know well that threads do morph, just like any conversation. Conversations would be pretty boring if everyone stuck strictly to whatever the starter chose to talk about. It's a good thing. Most of the more interesting threads are not the result of what an OP wrote, but when the topic branches out, and all angles of a subject are explored.
I do agree that the "manly" theory of manual preference is utterly stupid. However, that was laid on folks expressing manual preferences by people trying to diss them, and it reflects a sub-par intellect. It's right up there with the suggestion that people who love driving manuals are those incapable of "embracing change."
I suspect you're characterizing me as being in the "win the internet" camp. That's certainly a funny metaphor, but not a very accurate one. I do enjoy writing clearly and countering points I believe to be flawed or not well thought through. Practicing the art of writing clearly keeps one intellectually sharp. But, I'm sure as hell not trying to win anything here. That would be a fools errand.
Last edited by Foosh; 07-16-2019 at 07:55 AM.
07-15-2019, 07:51 PM
#100
Crabman,
As a valuable contributor here, you should know well that threads do morph, just like any conversation. Conversations would would be pretty boring if everyone stuck strictly to whatever the starter chose to talk about. It's a good thing. Most of the more interesting threads are not the result of what an OP wrote, but when the topic branches out, and all angles of a subject are explored.
I do agree that the "manly" theory of manual preference is utterly stupid. However, that was laid on folks expressing manual preferences by people trying to diss them, and it reflects a sub-par intellect. It's right up there with the suggestion that people who love driving manuals are those incapable of "embracing change."
I suspect you're characterizing me as being in the "win the internet" camp. That's certainly a funny metaphor, but not a very accurate one. I do enjoy writing clearly and countering points I believe to be flawed or not well thought through. Practicing the art of writing clearly keeps one intellectually sharp. But, I'm sure as hell not trying to win anything here. That would be a fools errand.
As a valuable contributor here, you should know well that threads do morph, just like any conversation. Conversations would would be pretty boring if everyone stuck strictly to whatever the starter chose to talk about. It's a good thing. Most of the more interesting threads are not the result of what an OP wrote, but when the topic branches out, and all angles of a subject are explored.
I do agree that the "manly" theory of manual preference is utterly stupid. However, that was laid on folks expressing manual preferences by people trying to diss them, and it reflects a sub-par intellect. It's right up there with the suggestion that people who love driving manuals are those incapable of "embracing change."
I suspect you're characterizing me as being in the "win the internet" camp. That's certainly a funny metaphor, but not a very accurate one. I do enjoy writing clearly and countering points I believe to be flawed or not well thought through. Practicing the art of writing clearly keeps one intellectually sharp. But, I'm sure as hell not trying to win anything here. That would be a fools errand.
Then, for saying that, you get the 'ol Ad Hominem attacks "Oh, you must be OLD... well get with the new times old gramps cause <xxx> is going away and is vastly inferior to the new stuff."
It's almost like on CNN where if anybody agrees with the president the anchor will be "Oh... we're not going to call you racist, BUT..." "Over to you Don. Thanks Anderson, more in the news about orange bad man... our sources say he is even badder than we thought."
The following users liked this post:
rigelkentaurus (07-20-2019)