Notices
C8 General Discussion The place to discuss the next generation of Corvette, be it mid-engine, Zora, or whatever form it may take.
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

Dual clutch concern

 
Old 07-11-2019, 06:00 PM
  #1  
Speed Demon 757
CF Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Speed Demon 757's Avatar
 
Member Since: May 2019
Posts: 114
Received 43 Likes on 22 Posts
Default Dual clutch concern

So I have never driven a dual clutch trans in my life I have only drove TC autos and traditional manuals. All I want to know is what is it like driving a dual clutch is it simular to a TC auto besides the laggy paddle shifters or is it completely different.
Speed Demon 757 is offline  

Top Answer

07-11-2019, 06:36 PM
fasttoys
CF Senior Member
 
fasttoys's Avatar
 
Member Since: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,060
Received 417 Likes on 186 Posts
Default

ADVANTAGES AND DISADVANTAGES OF DUAL CLUTCH TRANSMISSIONS


Though a dual clutch transmission is missing a clutch pedal, it’s hard to classify it as an automatic. While most automatic transmissions rely on either a torque converter or, if it’s a CVT, a system of pulleys, the dual clutch transmission uses clutch plates, like a manual transmission. Because of the unique way a dual-clutch transmission is set up, if you drive it like it’s an automatic transmission, you’ll likely have a negative driving experience and can even seriously damage your transmission.

Understanding how a DCT functions and the advantages and disadvantages of this transmission style can help increase the longevity of the transmission and contribute to an improvement in overall driving experience.

AUTOMATIC VS MANUAL TRANSMISSION

The transmission of a vehicle is the component that’s responsible for transferring the power from an engine into wheel movement. Different styles of transmissions have different methods for doing this, but people primarily talk about transmissions in terms of automatic or manual. Though this is an overly simplistic view, it does relay the ability of the car to transfer gears on its own.

While manual transmission vehicles require the driver to disengage the clutch by way of a pedal, change gears, and then reengage the clutch, automatics typically handle gear changes on their own thanks to a torque converter. Though a torque converter and flexplate function similarly to a clutch and flywheel, these minor equipment differences lead to very different driving styles.

The next time you’re at a stoplight, look around. While automatic drivers have a tendency to “creep,” manual drivers prefer to wait until there’s enough room to put their car into gear before asking it to move. If you’re looking at an older manual vehicle, you might even see it roll back slightly (yet another reason not to tailgate.) Because of how a clutch truly engages and disengages with an engine, the way in which manual and automatic drivers have to execute similar maneuvers is entirely different and determined by the needs of their transmission, so you can understand why it’s so important to understand which camp the dual-clutch transmission falls into.



WHAT IS A DUAL CLUTCH TRANSMISSION?

Because it’s convenient to have an automatic transmission some of the time but most enthusiasts want a little more control of their gearing, manu-matics or semi-automatic transmissions, have become an increasingly popular style of transmission. Though they’re lumped into the same category, how semi-automatic transmissions accomplish the same goal takes a variety of different paths. One of those paths is the dual clutch transmission.

A dual clutch transmission is a transmission with at least two clutch discs, one for the even-numbered gears and one for the odd-numbered gears. Much like with a sequential transmission, the gears go in order, but instead of relying on the driver to tell it when to switch gears, the dual clutch transmission swaps automatically. Almost all vehicles that have a DCT also have a manual mode though, and you can use paddle shifters to manually shift gears if you’d like. In that way, DCTs are a hybrid transmission system, not fully automatic or fully manual.

Some consider DCTs an automatic transmission because most of the time the gear shifts are automatic. Others consider it a manual because it still relies on a clutch plate and its gear shifting process (including the engine engagement and disengagement) is like a manual’s. Really, the problem is that we’ve based so much of our understanding of what a car’s transmission is on the driver’s part of the equation that we’ve oversimplified a category that’s meant to be significantly broader. There are a lot of different types of transmissions, and saying that a continuously variable transmission (CVT) and a dual-clutch transmission are the same just because neither requires the driver to manually shift illustrates the uselessness of the distinction and why it’s hard to speak in absolutes about all transmissions that can automatically shift.

Wet vs Dry Dual Clutch Transmissions

Within the category of DCTs, one important distinction between different models is whether or not it’s described as a wet or dry clutch. More powerful vehicles require wet clutch dual transmissions, which just means that oil is used in order to help dissipate the heat that naturally builds up on the clutch plate.

Dry dual clutch transmissions are more common and have several benefits as well. Dry clutches tend to be lighter, have less drag, and obviously are less likely to have spills or splash over. Unfortunately, they are also more prone to overheating.

DUAL-CLUTCH TRANSMISSION PROS AND CONS

The benefits of DCTs speak for themselves. Faster shifting, less loss of power, and more fuel efficiency.

The negatives are that there’s a bit of a learning curve to using them, they tend to have a little more jerkiness than the average driver is comfortable with, and they have a driving sensation that feels a lot like “turbo lag.” Until recently, there also weren’t very many vehicles available that offered a dual clutch transmission, so selection was also incredibly limited.
DUAL-CLUTCH TRANSMISSIONS: PROS AND CONSProsCons

Faster ShiftsLearning Curve

More Horsepower at WheelsJerkiness

Improved Fuel EconomyFew Vehicles Equipped with DCT

Freedom to Shift or RelaxExpensive to Replace



FORD’S PREVIOUS DCT TRANSMISSIONS: THE POWERSHIFT

Many are hesitant to try a DCT transmission due to Ford’s issues with dual-clutch transmissions in the past. Ford’s PowerShift DCT was seemingly plagued by problems, some caused by a leaky gearbox and some caused by as of yet unnamed sources that weren’t able to be remedied despite numerous transmission swaps and other costly maintenance procedures. These issues eventually led to a class action lawsuit that affected many Focus and Fiesta owners.

Ford’s other vehicle with a DCT has had significantly more success. Ford’s GT operates with a seven-speed dual clutch transmission. Though manufactured by the same company as the Focus’ DCT, there have been no reported issues with the GTs transmission. Unlike the transmission manufactured for the Focus though the GT one has seven speeds and is a wet clutch system.

It’s fair to say that the Tremec that we’ll be seeing in the Shelby GT500 will be more similar to this transmission than to the one in the Focus.



TREMEC DUAL CLUTCH TRANSMISSION

The 2020 Shelby GT500 will come equipped with a Tremec seven-speed dual clutch transmission. Mustang fans will recognize the name Tremec as being associated with some very solid transmissions. Tremec and Mustang have a long-standing relationship, and thus far without any class action lawsuits.

While the PowerShift was a dry clutch, the Tremec is a wet clutch that is “virtually dry.” Though it will still be heavier than a dry clutch, the wet clutch will allow for substantial cooling benefits, helping with some of the heat issues that seemed to affect the PowerShift negatively. It’s worth noting that the PowerShift had more problems if it was frequently driven on an incline, used in stop and go traffic, or if it was in a hot environment. These are all problems that were worsened by a majority of drivers operating the vehicles as though they were torque converter equipped automatics and also worsened by using a dry clutch which is traditionally less good at dissipating heat. Just switching to a wet clutch should alleviate many of these issues. The virtually dry component though is meant to decrease drag, which is one of the primary downsides to wet clutches.

Tremec seems particularly pleased with the solenoids they’ve developed for this application, which are incredibly responsive despite their small size. In short, this DCT is a premium transmission designed to operate performance-oriented vehicles.

Drivers who are interested but wary about the longevity of a dual clutch transmission can brush up on some driving strategies that can help extend the life of their transmission by alleviating stressors.



HOW TO DRIVE A DUAL CLUTCH TRANSMISSION

Dual clutch transmissions really are a hybrid transmission system and as such there are a few tips that are going to be surprising and novel whether your daily is a manual or an automatic.

Stop Inching

One bad habit many have gotten into is inching up slowly when traffic is at a standstill or when they’re waiting on a light to change. By keeping your foot hovering above the brake you’re able to crawl forward in increments so small that over the course of a year you maybe gain six feet. Honestly, it’s a habit with few positive benefits anyway, but in a DCT it can actually harm the vehicle.

Manual drivers tend to wait until they have enough space to drive to actually throw their car into gear and have it be worth it, and that’s the attitude you need to adapt when driving a DCT vehicle. Otherwise, you’re “slipping the clutch” which can cause undue wear and tear on the clutch wheels.

A DCT transmission can inch forward, so if there’s a compelling reason to do so, don’t hesitate, but if you’re trying to take care of your car (and you should) then inching up is a habit that’s easy to drop and has absolutely no downsides whatsoever. We promise that those centimeters aren’t going to amount to much more than a particularly wide step in the end.

No Need for Neutral

Though manual drivers may be used to throwing their transmission into neutral when they’re stopped at a light, there’s no reason to do so in a DCT equipped vehicle. The transmission will force the clutch to disengage when it feels the brake pedal being applied.

Brake on the Inclines

If you’re used to driving an automatic, then you’ve probably been stopped on an incline in the past, with nothing but your torque converter holding you in place. And torque converters can handle that, but DCTs will incur some wear and tear from this because asking clutch discs to hold a car in place is really a lot to ask from the clutch of your vehicle if you want it to live a long and healthy life. Use your brakes so that they’re taking the strain rather than the clutch. This is for parking as well, when you really should engage your parking brake so that it can be what holds your vehicle in place.

DCT: NOT A MANUAL, NOT AN AUTOMATIC

Sure, a DCT isn’t a true manual, and many purists will argue that you lose the feel of changing your own gears. But you’ll notice those same purists aren’t in a hurry to pull the synchros out of their transmission and try to pull off shifts without some assistance. The truth is that very few of us have lived in an era where shifts were totally unassisted. How you use that assistance is also a valuable skill, and unlike a traditional torque converter equipped automatic, a DCT has true gears that are shifted and give you the feeling of driving a manual. With paddle shifters, the only thing you’re really missing out on is the cool factor associated with grabbing your shifter and flinging it around like a Fast and the Furious extra. The DCT can pull off gear shifts faster than a human foot will ever be capable of, and if you know what you’re doing, they can also be a lot of fun.
Old 07-11-2019, 06:06 PM
  #2  
JLargo
CF Senior Member
 
JLargo's Avatar
 
Member Since: Apr 2006
Location: Largo Florida
Posts: 1,149
Received 44 Likes on 33 Posts
Default

JLargo is offline  
The following users liked this post:
GM5778 (07-12-2019)
Old 07-11-2019, 06:11 PM
  #3  
Speed Demon 757
CF Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Speed Demon 757's Avatar
 
Member Since: May 2019
Posts: 114
Received 43 Likes on 22 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by JLargo View Post
Ok cool...
Speed Demon 757 is offline  
Old 07-11-2019, 06:12 PM
  #4  
JLargo
CF Senior Member
 
JLargo's Avatar
 
Member Since: Apr 2006
Location: Largo Florida
Posts: 1,149
Received 44 Likes on 33 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Speed Demon 757 View Post
Ok cool...
In for the replies. I am wondering as well.
JLargo is offline  
Old 07-11-2019, 06:15 PM
  #5  
Speed Demon 757
CF Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Speed Demon 757's Avatar
 
Member Since: May 2019
Posts: 114
Received 43 Likes on 22 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by JLargo View Post
In for the replies. I am wondering as well.
Oh ok makes sense now.
Speed Demon 757 is offline  
The following users liked this post:
JLargo (07-11-2019)
Old 07-11-2019, 06:20 PM
  #6  
SouthernSon
CF Senior Member
Support Corvetteforum!
 
SouthernSon's Avatar
 
Member Since: Oct 2000
Location: Deal's Gap 2004 NCM Motorsports track supporter
Posts: 11,972
Received 299 Likes on 198 Posts
Default

Got a loaner from the MB dealer the other day. It was one of the A models, not very expensive. I knew instantly it was a DCT by how quickly the gear changed and the rpm matched all at once. Not bad for a $30K car. Well behaved and drives just like any other auto as far as that goes. I can't believe I am saying anything good about a MB. There have been several in the family and I dislike each one mostly because it is difficult for owner maintenance and dealer attitudes.
SouthernSon is offline  
The following 3 users liked this post by SouthernSon:
GM5778 (07-12-2019), JimNeedsC7 (07-14-2019), VetteDrmr (07-12-2019)
Old 07-11-2019, 06:26 PM
  #7  
Speed Demon 757
CF Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Speed Demon 757's Avatar
 
Member Since: May 2019
Posts: 114
Received 43 Likes on 22 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by SouthernSon View Post
Got a loaner from the MB dealer the other day. It was one of the A models, not very expensive. I knew instantly it was a DCT by how quickly the gear changed and the rpm matched all at once. Not bad for a $30K car. Well behaved and drives just like any other auto as far as that goes. I can't believe I am saying anything good about a MB. There have been several in the family and I dislike each one mostly because it is difficult for owner maintenance and dealer attitudes.
Ok cool so basically if you made someone drive a dct and you said it was a TC auto they would basically beleive it?
Speed Demon 757 is offline  
Old 07-11-2019, 06:27 PM
  #8  
RedMercy
CF Senior Member
 
RedMercy's Avatar
 
Member Since: May 2019
Location: Michigan
Posts: 208
Received 112 Likes on 61 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Speed Demon 757 View Post
So I have never driven a dual clutch trans in my life I have only drove TC autos and traditional manuals. All I want to know is what is it like driving a dual clutch is it simular to a TC auto besides the laggy paddle shifters or is it completely different.
It depends on how it is set-up. If well, you won't find much difference at all, besides the lightning fast shifts. Although you have to keep in mind that it is actuated by clutches, and that is something that can wear out really fast if abused or misused. One thing to keep in mind, on stop and go traffic it is better to get some distance between you and the car in front of you, to minimize wear by inching forward, just like a manual, if you want the car to "coast" slowly, you will be using the clutch, albeit the car will do this for you. If you live in a more hilly area, don't use your gas pedal to keep the car from descending, although you shouldn't do that in any gearbox anyways, since torque-converters tend to overheat. The main point: don't worry too much, it's really easy to get the hang of it, and will last you a long time if you keep these things in mind. I suggest you watch some videos about the mechanical processes behind it, it will really help you understand how to drive them.

Last edited by RedMercy; 07-11-2019 at 06:28 PM.
RedMercy is offline  
Old 07-11-2019, 06:36 PM
  #9  
fasttoys
CF Senior Member
 
fasttoys's Avatar
 
Member Since: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,060
Received 417 Likes on 186 Posts
Default

ADVANTAGES AND DISADVANTAGES OF DUAL CLUTCH TRANSMISSIONS


Though a dual clutch transmission is missing a clutch pedal, it’s hard to classify it as an automatic. While most automatic transmissions rely on either a torque converter or, if it’s a CVT, a system of pulleys, the dual clutch transmission uses clutch plates, like a manual transmission. Because of the unique way a dual-clutch transmission is set up, if you drive it like it’s an automatic transmission, you’ll likely have a negative driving experience and can even seriously damage your transmission.

Understanding how a DCT functions and the advantages and disadvantages of this transmission style can help increase the longevity of the transmission and contribute to an improvement in overall driving experience.

AUTOMATIC VS MANUAL TRANSMISSION

The transmission of a vehicle is the component that’s responsible for transferring the power from an engine into wheel movement. Different styles of transmissions have different methods for doing this, but people primarily talk about transmissions in terms of automatic or manual. Though this is an overly simplistic view, it does relay the ability of the car to transfer gears on its own.

While manual transmission vehicles require the driver to disengage the clutch by way of a pedal, change gears, and then reengage the clutch, automatics typically handle gear changes on their own thanks to a torque converter. Though a torque converter and flexplate function similarly to a clutch and flywheel, these minor equipment differences lead to very different driving styles.

The next time you’re at a stoplight, look around. While automatic drivers have a tendency to “creep,” manual drivers prefer to wait until there’s enough room to put their car into gear before asking it to move. If you’re looking at an older manual vehicle, you might even see it roll back slightly (yet another reason not to tailgate.) Because of how a clutch truly engages and disengages with an engine, the way in which manual and automatic drivers have to execute similar maneuvers is entirely different and determined by the needs of their transmission, so you can understand why it’s so important to understand which camp the dual-clutch transmission falls into.



WHAT IS A DUAL CLUTCH TRANSMISSION?

Because it’s convenient to have an automatic transmission some of the time but most enthusiasts want a little more control of their gearing, manu-matics or semi-automatic transmissions, have become an increasingly popular style of transmission. Though they’re lumped into the same category, how semi-automatic transmissions accomplish the same goal takes a variety of different paths. One of those paths is the dual clutch transmission.

A dual clutch transmission is a transmission with at least two clutch discs, one for the even-numbered gears and one for the odd-numbered gears. Much like with a sequential transmission, the gears go in order, but instead of relying on the driver to tell it when to switch gears, the dual clutch transmission swaps automatically. Almost all vehicles that have a DCT also have a manual mode though, and you can use paddle shifters to manually shift gears if you’d like. In that way, DCTs are a hybrid transmission system, not fully automatic or fully manual.

Some consider DCTs an automatic transmission because most of the time the gear shifts are automatic. Others consider it a manual because it still relies on a clutch plate and its gear shifting process (including the engine engagement and disengagement) is like a manual’s. Really, the problem is that we’ve based so much of our understanding of what a car’s transmission is on the driver’s part of the equation that we’ve oversimplified a category that’s meant to be significantly broader. There are a lot of different types of transmissions, and saying that a continuously variable transmission (CVT) and a dual-clutch transmission are the same just because neither requires the driver to manually shift illustrates the uselessness of the distinction and why it’s hard to speak in absolutes about all transmissions that can automatically shift.

Wet vs Dry Dual Clutch Transmissions

Within the category of DCTs, one important distinction between different models is whether or not it’s described as a wet or dry clutch. More powerful vehicles require wet clutch dual transmissions, which just means that oil is used in order to help dissipate the heat that naturally builds up on the clutch plate.

Dry dual clutch transmissions are more common and have several benefits as well. Dry clutches tend to be lighter, have less drag, and obviously are less likely to have spills or splash over. Unfortunately, they are also more prone to overheating.

DUAL-CLUTCH TRANSMISSION PROS AND CONS

The benefits of DCTs speak for themselves. Faster shifting, less loss of power, and more fuel efficiency.

The negatives are that there’s a bit of a learning curve to using them, they tend to have a little more jerkiness than the average driver is comfortable with, and they have a driving sensation that feels a lot like “turbo lag.” Until recently, there also weren’t very many vehicles available that offered a dual clutch transmission, so selection was also incredibly limited.
DUAL-CLUTCH TRANSMISSIONS: PROS AND CONSProsCons

Faster ShiftsLearning Curve

More Horsepower at WheelsJerkiness

Improved Fuel EconomyFew Vehicles Equipped with DCT

Freedom to Shift or RelaxExpensive to Replace



FORD’S PREVIOUS DCT TRANSMISSIONS: THE POWERSHIFT

Many are hesitant to try a DCT transmission due to Ford’s issues with dual-clutch transmissions in the past. Ford’s PowerShift DCT was seemingly plagued by problems, some caused by a leaky gearbox and some caused by as of yet unnamed sources that weren’t able to be remedied despite numerous transmission swaps and other costly maintenance procedures. These issues eventually led to a class action lawsuit that affected many Focus and Fiesta owners.

Ford’s other vehicle with a DCT has had significantly more success. Ford’s GT operates with a seven-speed dual clutch transmission. Though manufactured by the same company as the Focus’ DCT, there have been no reported issues with the GTs transmission. Unlike the transmission manufactured for the Focus though the GT one has seven speeds and is a wet clutch system.

It’s fair to say that the Tremec that we’ll be seeing in the Shelby GT500 will be more similar to this transmission than to the one in the Focus.



TREMEC DUAL CLUTCH TRANSMISSION

The 2020 Shelby GT500 will come equipped with a Tremec seven-speed dual clutch transmission. Mustang fans will recognize the name Tremec as being associated with some very solid transmissions. Tremec and Mustang have a long-standing relationship, and thus far without any class action lawsuits.

While the PowerShift was a dry clutch, the Tremec is a wet clutch that is “virtually dry.” Though it will still be heavier than a dry clutch, the wet clutch will allow for substantial cooling benefits, helping with some of the heat issues that seemed to affect the PowerShift negatively. It’s worth noting that the PowerShift had more problems if it was frequently driven on an incline, used in stop and go traffic, or if it was in a hot environment. These are all problems that were worsened by a majority of drivers operating the vehicles as though they were torque converter equipped automatics and also worsened by using a dry clutch which is traditionally less good at dissipating heat. Just switching to a wet clutch should alleviate many of these issues. The virtually dry component though is meant to decrease drag, which is one of the primary downsides to wet clutches.

Tremec seems particularly pleased with the solenoids they’ve developed for this application, which are incredibly responsive despite their small size. In short, this DCT is a premium transmission designed to operate performance-oriented vehicles.

Drivers who are interested but wary about the longevity of a dual clutch transmission can brush up on some driving strategies that can help extend the life of their transmission by alleviating stressors.



HOW TO DRIVE A DUAL CLUTCH TRANSMISSION

Dual clutch transmissions really are a hybrid transmission system and as such there are a few tips that are going to be surprising and novel whether your daily is a manual or an automatic.

Stop Inching

One bad habit many have gotten into is inching up slowly when traffic is at a standstill or when they’re waiting on a light to change. By keeping your foot hovering above the brake you’re able to crawl forward in increments so small that over the course of a year you maybe gain six feet. Honestly, it’s a habit with few positive benefits anyway, but in a DCT it can actually harm the vehicle.

Manual drivers tend to wait until they have enough space to drive to actually throw their car into gear and have it be worth it, and that’s the attitude you need to adapt when driving a DCT vehicle. Otherwise, you’re “slipping the clutch” which can cause undue wear and tear on the clutch wheels.

A DCT transmission can inch forward, so if there’s a compelling reason to do so, don’t hesitate, but if you’re trying to take care of your car (and you should) then inching up is a habit that’s easy to drop and has absolutely no downsides whatsoever. We promise that those centimeters aren’t going to amount to much more than a particularly wide step in the end.

No Need for Neutral

Though manual drivers may be used to throwing their transmission into neutral when they’re stopped at a light, there’s no reason to do so in a DCT equipped vehicle. The transmission will force the clutch to disengage when it feels the brake pedal being applied.

Brake on the Inclines

If you’re used to driving an automatic, then you’ve probably been stopped on an incline in the past, with nothing but your torque converter holding you in place. And torque converters can handle that, but DCTs will incur some wear and tear from this because asking clutch discs to hold a car in place is really a lot to ask from the clutch of your vehicle if you want it to live a long and healthy life. Use your brakes so that they’re taking the strain rather than the clutch. This is for parking as well, when you really should engage your parking brake so that it can be what holds your vehicle in place.

DCT: NOT A MANUAL, NOT AN AUTOMATIC

Sure, a DCT isn’t a true manual, and many purists will argue that you lose the feel of changing your own gears. But you’ll notice those same purists aren’t in a hurry to pull the synchros out of their transmission and try to pull off shifts without some assistance. The truth is that very few of us have lived in an era where shifts were totally unassisted. How you use that assistance is also a valuable skill, and unlike a traditional torque converter equipped automatic, a DCT has true gears that are shifted and give you the feeling of driving a manual. With paddle shifters, the only thing you’re really missing out on is the cool factor associated with grabbing your shifter and flinging it around like a Fast and the Furious extra. The DCT can pull off gear shifts faster than a human foot will ever be capable of, and if you know what you’re doing, they can also be a lot of fun.
fasttoys is offline  
The following 17 users liked this post by fasttoys:
68roadster (07-12-2019), B747VET (07-12-2019), Bob in Elliot Lake (07-17-2019), boostm2 (07-11-2019), Corgidog1 (07-12-2019), darkmercury (07-16-2019), everjeff (07-12-2019), G8R-Vette (07-14-2019), JLargo (07-11-2019), lavla (07-12-2019), MikeG37 (07-13-2019), NAH801 (07-16-2019), RonC7 (07-13-2019), smoove7410 (07-14-2019), thelastday (07-16-2019), VetteDrmr (07-12-2019), vettesweetnos (07-13-2019)
Old 07-11-2019, 06:46 PM
  #10  
Skullbussa
CF Senior Member
 
Skullbussa's Avatar
 
Member Since: May 2010
Posts: 607
Received 77 Likes on 34 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Speed Demon 757 View Post
So I have never driven a dual clutch trans in my life I have only drove TC autos and traditional manuals. All I want to know is what is it like driving a dual clutch is it simular to a TC auto besides the laggy paddle shifters or is it completely different.
Put DCT in auto mode and you won’t know you’re driving a DCT or a slush box torque converter transmission.

Put it it in manual and you’ll get shifts faster than any human being could ever manage.

The best part is: DCT begs you to drive like a maniac.
Skullbussa is offline  
The following 2 users liked this post by Skullbussa:
B747VET (07-12-2019), repo czar (07-14-2019)
Old 07-11-2019, 06:59 PM
  #11  
Speed Demon 757
CF Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Speed Demon 757's Avatar
 
Member Since: May 2019
Posts: 114
Received 43 Likes on 22 Posts
Default

You guys have given me great advice thanks guys!
Speed Demon 757 is offline  
Old 07-11-2019, 07:11 PM
  #12  
RedMercy
CF Senior Member
 
RedMercy's Avatar
 
Member Since: May 2019
Location: Michigan
Posts: 208
Received 112 Likes on 61 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by fasttoys View Post
ADVANTAGES AND DISADVANTAGES OF DUAL CLUTCH TRANSMISSIONS


Though a dual clutch transmission is missing a clutch pedal, it’s hard to classify it as an automatic. While most automatic transmissions rely on either a torque converter or, if it’s a CVT, a system of pulleys, the dual clutch transmission uses clutch plates, like a manual transmission. Because of the unique way a dual-clutch transmission is set up, if you drive it like it’s an automatic transmission, you’ll likely have a negative driving experience and can even seriously damage your transmission.

Understanding how a DCT functions and the advantages and disadvantages of this transmission style can help increase the longevity of the transmission and contribute to an improvement in overall driving experience.

AUTOMATIC VS MANUAL TRANSMISSION

The transmission of a vehicle is the component that’s responsible for transferring the power from an engine into wheel movement. Different styles of transmissions have different methods for doing this, but people primarily talk about transmissions in terms of automatic or manual. Though this is an overly simplistic view, it does relay the ability of the car to transfer gears on its own.

While manual transmission vehicles require the driver to disengage the clutch by way of a pedal, change gears, and then reengage the clutch, automatics typically handle gear changes on their own thanks to a torque converter. Though a torque converter and flexplate function similarly to a clutch and flywheel, these minor equipment differences lead to very different driving styles.

The next time you’re at a stoplight, look around. While automatic drivers have a tendency to “creep,” manual drivers prefer to wait until there’s enough room to put their car into gear before asking it to move. If you’re looking at an older manual vehicle, you might even see it roll back slightly (yet another reason not to tailgate.) Because of how a clutch truly engages and disengages with an engine, the way in which manual and automatic drivers have to execute similar maneuvers is entirely different and determined by the needs of their transmission, so you can understand why it’s so important to understand which camp the dual-clutch transmission falls into.


WHAT IS A DUAL CLUTCH TRANSMISSION?

Because it’s convenient to have an automatic transmission some of the time but most enthusiasts want a little more control of their gearing, manu-matics or semi-automatic transmissions, have become an increasingly popular style of transmission. Though they’re lumped into the same category, how semi-automatic transmissions accomplish the same goal takes a variety of different paths. One of those paths is the dual clutch transmission.

A dual clutch transmission is a transmission with at least two clutch discs, one for the even-numbered gears and one for the odd-numbered gears. Much like with a sequential transmission, the gears go in order, but instead of relying on the driver to tell it when to switch gears, the dual clutch transmission swaps automatically. Almost all vehicles that have a DCT also have a manual mode though, and you can use paddle shifters to manually shift gears if you’d like. In that way, DCTs are a hybrid transmission system, not fully automatic or fully manual.

Some consider DCTs an automatic transmission because most of the time the gear shifts are automatic. Others consider it a manual because it still relies on a clutch plate and its gear shifting process (including the engine engagement and disengagement) is like a manual’s. Really, the problem is that we’ve based so much of our understanding of what a car’s transmission is on the driver’s part of the equation that we’ve oversimplified a category that’s meant to be significantly broader. There are a lot of different types of transmissions, and saying that a continuously variable transmission (CVT) and a dual-clutch transmission are the same just because neither requires the driver to manually shift illustrates the uselessness of the distinction and why it’s hard to speak in absolutes about all transmissions that can automatically shift.

Wet vs Dry Dual Clutch Transmissions

Within the category of DCTs, one important distinction between different models is whether or not it’s described as a wet or dry clutch. More powerful vehicles require wet clutch dual transmissions, which just means that oil is used in order to help dissipate the heat that naturally builds up on the clutch plate.

Dry dual clutch transmissions are more common and have several benefits as well. Dry clutches tend to be lighter, have less drag, and obviously are less likely to have spills or splash over. Unfortunately, they are also more prone to overheating.

DUAL-CLUTCH TRANSMISSION PROS AND CONS

The benefits of DCTs speak for themselves. Faster shifting, less loss of power, and more fuel efficiency.

The negatives are that there’s a bit of a learning curve to using them, they tend to have a little more jerkiness than the average driver is comfortable with, and they have a driving sensation that feels a lot like “turbo lag.” Until recently, there also weren’t very many vehicles available that offered a dual clutch transmission, so selection was also incredibly limited.
DUAL-CLUTCH TRANSMISSIONS: PROS AND CONSProsCons

Faster ShiftsLearning Curve

More Horsepower at WheelsJerkiness

Improved Fuel EconomyFew Vehicles Equipped with DCT

Freedom to Shift or RelaxExpensive to Replace




FORD’S PREVIOUS DCT TRANSMISSIONS: THE POWERSHIFT

Many are hesitant to try a DCT transmission due to Ford’s issues with dual-clutch transmissions in the past. Ford’s PowerShift DCT was seemingly plagued by problems, some caused by a leaky gearbox and some caused by as of yet unnamed sources that weren’t able to be remedied despite numerous transmission swaps and other costly maintenance procedures. These issues eventually led to a class action lawsuit that affected many Focus and Fiesta owners.

Ford’s other vehicle with a DCT has had significantly more success. Ford’s GT operates with a seven-speed dual clutch transmission. Though manufactured by the same company as the Focus’ DCT, there have been no reported issues with the GTs transmission. Unlike the transmission manufactured for the Focus though the GT one has seven speeds and is a wet clutch system.

It’s fair to say that the Tremec that we’ll be seeing in the Shelby GT500 will be more similar to this transmission than to the one in the Focus.


TREMEC DUAL CLUTCH TRANSMISSION

The 2020 Shelby GT500 will come equipped with a Tremec seven-speed dual clutch transmission. Mustang fans will recognize the name Tremec as being associated with some very solid transmissions. Tremec and Mustang have a long-standing relationship, and thus far without any class action lawsuits.

While the PowerShift was a dry clutch, the Tremec is a wet clutch that is “virtually dry.” Though it will still be heavier than a dry clutch, the wet clutch will allow for substantial cooling benefits, helping with some of the heat issues that seemed to affect the PowerShift negatively. It’s worth noting that the PowerShift had more problems if it was frequently driven on an incline, used in stop and go traffic, or if it was in a hot environment. These are all problems that were worsened by a majority of drivers operating the vehicles as though they were torque converter equipped automatics and also worsened by using a dry clutch which is traditionally less good at dissipating heat. Just switching to a wet clutch should alleviate many of these issues. The virtually dry component though is meant to decrease drag, which is one of the primary downsides to wet clutches.

Tremec seems particularly pleased with the solenoids they’ve developed for this application, which are incredibly responsive despite their small size. In short, this DCT is a premium transmission designed to operate performance-oriented vehicles.

Drivers who are interested but wary about the longevity of a dual clutch transmission can brush up on some driving strategies that can help extend the life of their transmission by alleviating stressors.


HOW TO DRIVE A DUAL CLUTCH TRANSMISSION

Dual clutch transmissions really are a hybrid transmission system and as such there are a few tips that are going to be surprising and novel whether your daily is a manual or an automatic.

Stop Inching

One bad habit many have gotten into is inching up slowly when traffic is at a standstill or when they’re waiting on a light to change. By keeping your foot hovering above the brake you’re able to crawl forward in increments so small that over the course of a year you maybe gain six feet. Honestly, it’s a habit with few positive benefits anyway, but in a DCT it can actually harm the vehicle.

Manual drivers tend to wait until they have enough space to drive to actually throw their car into gear and have it be worth it, and that’s the attitude you need to adapt when driving a DCT vehicle. Otherwise, you’re “slipping the clutch” which can cause undue wear and tear on the clutch wheels.

A DCT transmission can inch forward, so if there’s a compelling reason to do so, don’t hesitate, but if you’re trying to take care of your car (and you should) then inching up is a habit that’s easy to drop and has absolutely no downsides whatsoever. We promise that those centimeters aren’t going to amount to much more than a particularly wide step in the end.

No Need for Neutral

Though manual drivers may be used to throwing their transmission into neutral when they’re stopped at a light, there’s no reason to do so in a DCT equipped vehicle. The transmission will force the clutch to disengage when it feels the brake pedal being applied.

Brake on the Inclines

If you’re used to driving an automatic, then you’ve probably been stopped on an incline in the past, with nothing but your torque converter holding you in place. And torque converters can handle that, but DCTs will incur some wear and tear from this because asking clutch discs to hold a car in place is really a lot to ask from the clutch of your vehicle if you want it to live a long and healthy life. Use your brakes so that they’re taking the strain rather than the clutch. This is for parking as well, when you really should engage your parking brake so that it can be what holds your vehicle in place.

DCT: NOT A MANUAL, NOT AN AUTOMATIC

Sure, a DCT isn’t a true manual, and many purists will argue that you lose the feel of changing your own gears. But you’ll notice those same purists aren’t in a hurry to pull the synchros out of their transmission and try to pull off shifts without some assistance. The truth is that very few of us have lived in an era where shifts were totally unassisted. How you use that assistance is also a valuable skill, and unlike a traditional torque converter equipped automatic, a DCT has true gears that are shifted and give you the feeling of driving a manual. With paddle shifters, the only thing you’re really missing out on is the cool factor associated with grabbing your shifter and flinging it around like a Fast and the Furious extra. The DCT can pull off gear shifts faster than a human foot will ever be capable of, and if you know what you’re doing, they can also be a lot of fun.
I would classify it as an automatic regardless. You don't shift it, it shifts itself, therefore...
As for the neutral, you are right, no need to change it to neutral at the stoplight, but some require you to change to neutral in order to activate park, although this changes by the maker e.g. BMW.

Do you change a torque-converter automatic to neutral at stoplights? Some will debate, but doing that does not spare the transmission excess wear and tear. and by moving the shifter from D to N causes stuff to move around -- linkages and mechanisms -- so, of course, there's wear on those moving parts, but nothing excessive that one should be concerned about.
RedMercy is offline  
Old 07-11-2019, 08:15 PM
  #13  
SouthernSon
CF Senior Member
Support Corvetteforum!
 
SouthernSon's Avatar
 
Member Since: Oct 2000
Location: Deal's Gap 2004 NCM Motorsports track supporter
Posts: 11,972
Received 299 Likes on 198 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Speed Demon 757 View Post
Ok cool so basically if you made someone drive a dct and you said it was a TC auto they would basically beleive it?
If they didn't they would think it is the fastest, surest shifting auto they have ever experienced.

It is quick, it sounds different and you would have to be butt blind not to notice the difference even in auto mode. At least this is true of the one and only little A model MB that I drove last summer. YMMV.

Last edited by SouthernSon; 07-11-2019 at 08:19 PM.
SouthernSon is offline  
Old 07-11-2019, 09:09 PM
  #14  
ByByBMW
CF Senior Member
Support Corvetteforum!
 
ByByBMW's Avatar
 
Member Since: Dec 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 5,327
Received 259 Likes on 135 Posts
St. Jude Donor '06-'08-'10-'11-'12-'13 '14-'15-'16-'17

Default

I have a DCT and it operates normally just like a TC transmission no matter how badly the naysayers want to so it doesn't. As to creeping, when your foot is on the brake, there is no clutch engagement. When your foot is off the brake the clutch is engaged just like if you were operating any transmission. As to inclines, the DCT equipped car should have "hill hold" automatically engage so you aren't using the clutch to keep you in position.

When you think about it, when you don't want to move, your foot should be on the brake pedal when you are driving any style of transmission. This is obviously a simplification but bottom line it, it will feel like an extremely well sorted out TC auto but better.

Lets put it another way, I have a 2012 GS with a TC auto, a 2016 Audi A6 with a TC auto and my 2013 Porsche with a DCT. I don't drive any of them any differently than the other ones.

Last edited by ByByBMW; 07-11-2019 at 09:14 PM. Reason: Clarification.
ByByBMW is offline  
The following 3 users liked this post by ByByBMW:
68roadster (07-12-2019), Foosh (07-12-2019), thebishman (07-12-2019)
Old 07-11-2019, 10:57 PM
  #15  
NY09C6
CF Senior Member
 
NY09C6's Avatar
 
Member Since: Sep 1999
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,570
Likes: 0
Received 356 Likes on 220 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Speed Demon 757 View Post
So I have never driven a dual clutch trans in my life I have only drove TC autos and traditional manuals. All I want to know is what is it like driving a dual clutch is it simular to a TC auto besides the laggy paddle shifters or is it completely different.
It shifts much faster but is less smooth on take off. Otherwise dives just like a traditional auto. Just as boring too.

Last edited by NY09C6; 07-11-2019 at 10:58 PM.
NY09C6 is offline  
The following 3 users liked this post by NY09C6:
GM5778 (07-12-2019), JimNeedsC7 (07-14-2019), pdiddy972 (07-12-2019)
Old 07-12-2019, 12:03 AM
  #16  
BIG Dave
CF Senior Member
 
BIG Dave's Avatar
 
Member Since: Dec 1999
Location: One Hour From Boston!
Posts: 2,571
Received 314 Likes on 152 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Speed Demon 757 View Post
So I have never driven a dual clutch trans in my life I have only drove TC autos and traditional manuals. All I want to know is what is it like driving a dual clutch is it simular to a TC auto besides the laggy paddle shifters or is it completely different.
Most high end sports car manufacturers (Ferrari, Lamborghini, McLaren, Porsche, etc) employ DCT’s. No reason to be concerned, be happy!
BIG Dave is offline  
Old 07-12-2019, 12:16 AM
  #17  
pdiddy972
CF Senior Member
 
pdiddy972's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jan 2014
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 11,706
Received 385 Likes on 249 Posts
Default

Nobody calls automatic transmissions that because of something to do with the internals; it's called that because the driver doesn't have to do anything. So pointing out similarities with the clutches in a DCT and a manual is a distinction without a difference with regard to automatic vs manual.
pdiddy972 is offline  
The following 4 users liked this post by pdiddy972:
AORoads (07-12-2019), Foosh (07-12-2019), RedMercy (07-12-2019), vndkshn (07-12-2019)
Old 07-12-2019, 12:41 AM
  #18  
Mr Snappy!
CF Senior Member
 
Mr Snappy!'s Avatar
 
Member Since: Jan 2003
Location: Olathe KS
Posts: 1,874
Received 31 Likes on 12 Posts
Default



Here is what I drive while I am waiting for the C8. It's a BMW M4 and it has the DCT. It was the first one I have owned. Before this I bounce around from Auto to Stick depending on the deal.
I can tell you that there are definitely pros and cons. Pros: At speed, this transmission is insanely quick and precise. You can tweak the shifting dynamics on the BMW to suit your style. It is an automatic and would argue with anyone who says they are not. The Cons: They do take some time to get use to, especially at VERY low speeds. They can be jerky and jumpy, especially when cold. Backing out of the garage on a cold day can be a bit of an adventure. I would never let my wife drive the M4 without me in the car (Bonus!).

So, how do I feel about the C8 and a DCT? It would not be my first choice, I would probably go with a stick if available....HOWEVER, having lived with one for awhile now I can tell you that it won't be a show-stopper for me.
Mr Snappy! is offline  
The following 3 users liked this post by Mr Snappy!:
darkmercury (07-16-2019), Foosh (07-12-2019), JimNeedsC7 (07-14-2019)
Old 07-12-2019, 01:20 AM
  #19  
vetteship
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Nov 2004
Location: So Cal
Posts: 4,439
Likes: 0
Received 33 Likes on 19 Posts
Default

Auto transmission: Boring
DCT: Fast shifting, ..., still boring
Manual: Are we having fun yet?
vetteship is offline  
The following 5 users liked this post by vetteship:
Corgidog1 (07-12-2019), fatsport (07-12-2019), Foosh (07-12-2019), JimNeedsC7 (07-14-2019), MitchAlsup (07-12-2019)
Old 07-12-2019, 06:41 AM
  #20  
Katie22
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: May 2016
Posts: 291
Received 70 Likes on 48 Posts
Default

SouthernSOn you and I had a private conversation. I pointed out to you that you can buy the full software package the Mercedes Dealer uses and have the very best manuals right from the manufacturer. Oh its less than 20 dollars on ebay for this. I did tell you that. I own two mercedes cars and do all the maintenance myself using this software and its actually very easy.
Katie22 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Quick Reply: Dual clutch concern


Contact Us - About Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
 
  • Ask a Question
    Get answers from community experts
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: