formula1nut

Open Letter to Cruise Organizers and Drivers

I hope Forum members will consider the following in the constructive manner that is intended.

I do not participate in cruises. That is despite the fact that I purchased my car largely with the intent of cruising in mind.

Why you might ask?

Well it is a bit complicated but here goes.

Earlier this year a high performance car cruise received significant negative media attention by virtue of the illegal activities taking place during it. A Corvette C7 received media attention as it was being impounded.

Things like that hurt anyone driving a high performance car.

Now look at the photos and videos of recent cruises organized by members here and including participants from here.

• One photo clearly shows a driver using a hand held device.
Unsafe and illegal.

• A video shows cars leaving a restaurant parking lot. Excessive speed and in at least one case massive fishtails as the car barely stays in control.

• Most recently an event participant received a significant ticket well publicized here.

Activities like these have a clear potential for negative repercussions on all of us. They should not be tolerated. Especially by members of this forum. They hurt every single person driving a Vette. Making matters worse they are openly photographed, videoed or in effect encouraged on this forum.

The only good thing is that a forum organized cruise has not been singled out by police and videographers. YET.

That is due to good luck not good conduct.

Organizers must do everything possible to prevent illegal, unsafe activities. Also they should do everything possible to insure that if there are unsafe and/or illegal activities they not be publicised by participants here or anywhere else!

Participants must be aware that everything they do, good and bad, reflects on all of us.

These days you must assume everyone has, and uses, a camera. Also assume that they want their 15 minutes of fame by sharing stuff like this publicly.

Something has to be done about this stuff or we will all pay the price every time we drive.

JB08

I’ve read your arguments carefully and do not dispute that illegal or dangerous behavior should never be sanctioned. However, I do take issue with your characterization and general expectations. First, I have been on a many cruises and in general everyone is very well behaved. The incidents you highlight are a few instances in
many hours of safe cruising. The incident you bring up regarding the impounded C7 was a result of what some people described in the media as cars stopping on the highway and passing other cars on the shoulder. While all illegal behavior is inappropriate there is such a thing as level of degree: I have never seen anyone on any cruise behave with such wanton disregard for public safety. I have seen people go over the speed limit, as I see on any highway in our province and while I also do not condone using cell phones while driving, we all know that this is an issue affecting the general driving population. What I am trying to say is that the people I see on cruise are at worst case no better or no worse than the general population. The second thing I take issue with, is more general. The cruises are put together by usually one individual who coordinates the destination. What people do on the cruises remains a matter of personal responsibility. If the public assigns guilt to all corvette owners because they saw one jackass do something stupid, that is not my problem. I do not believe in stereotyping or in that very current mind virus going around that assigns collective guilt to groups of people. That is the beauty of living in a free country, we have personal responsibility and accountability as well as freedom to choose. And we can also choose to agree to disagree.

formula1nut

Your reply is well thought out and your points well taken.

However do keep in mind I did place responsibility on individual participants as well as organisers. Further my biggest single issue relates to actually publicising, and in so doing, glorifying the inappropriate actions with photos, videos and comments. In my view that can only cause problems in the future.

raztek

As the organizer of the cruise called out, I mentioned to you that I took your feedback as constructive and will make some adjustments (see below). My question to you is what realistically, you think an organizer can do to control what free-willed human beings do in a vehicle 10, 20, 30 or more car lengths behind them. Same question regarding what they choose to photograph/video and then post from the comfort of their own home? Not trying to be difficult, just a genuine question.

What I can do is to remind everyone that they are responsible for their own behaviour and obeying all traffic laws. In addition, I will suggest that they not post any potentially embarrassing photos/videos (e.g. someone picking their nose while driving).

I also took the time to talk to Police officers on what my responsibilities are as the organizer. Their response was that everyone is responsible for what they do and if caught will be dealt with accordingly. The consensus was an organizer can't control what other people do.

Perhaps I can have everyone sign a disclaimer, but frankly that would hold up less than a bungee chord at the top of its recoil under litigation.

So what's the answer? Not have a cruise?

I am sorry that you feel that you can't enjoy your vehicle. There are plenty of ******** out there outside those who participate in cruises that could potentially result in all of us being negatively impacted.

Finally, I will not chase down people to remove a post they make. If anyone has a problem with something someone posts or does, please take it up directly with them.

NoShade

I want to add my thoughts to this thread as well. I sold my Corvette recently and this was one of the factors in that decision.

I'm not going to point fingers at anyone but my wife and I were nearly run off the road by two members of the group during the drive home from an event this year. It certainly took the joy out of that drive.

A very wise member of the group told me one time " That's why I don't like cruising with guys I don't know!"

My solution was to position myself in the group with like minded cruisers who don't participate in the aggressive stuff. Usually the guys in the back.

That said selling the car was my choice and I would never let the actions of few stop me from enjoying the car or the cruises. I have met some great people participating in these cruises and have many great memories.

Even though I'm vette-less now I will still join in where I can. But I will avoid the bigger cruises and I will stay away from those that simply have no clue about how to drive in groups.

formula1nut

I carefully did NOT call out a single cruise. Rather recent photos and videos on this forum.

I think your plan for the future is a good one.

Again I recognize fully that it is individuals who are the problem. The thread title was to organizers and drivers.

No one is asking for photos/videos/comments to be censored rather for those contributing them to consider the consequences and think before they post.

walleyejack

i would stick to a Prius or a ricer, you would enjoy it much more.
if you don t join in any of the cruises then who are you to judge may i ask ? i m not trying to start a confrontation here, this is a public forum and people giving their thoughts. you are only stating hearsay in some instances, sure there were pictures, you were not there, so you don t know the details or the situation. You clearly stated you don t join in cruises, so what does it matter to you what transpires during it ? i witnessed a German brand car spinning his tires the other day, i guess they are all douches, i will keep that in mind next time i see 1 and steer clear of them. i hope you don t get a ticket going 5km over the limit in this lifetime. enjoy your day sir.

formula1nut

First your comment re Prius and ricer is completely inappropriate. I am a happy high performance Corvette owner and want to stay that way,

Second no hearsay at all. Pictures, videos and comments on this forum only.

Third you missed my point entirely. Eventually the activities that I refer to will become public. That hurts everyone not just cruise participants. That is why it matters.

walleyejack

the organizers cannot and will not be responsible for actions taken by a few, they are not baby sitters, they cannot monitor what happens 30 cars back, each driver is responsible for their own actions. you do not participate anyway, so why are you so concerned about things you do not do. smh
enjoy your day.

FivePointFarms

OP=...just don't participate.

Stan never had any problems.

I once got hung up behind the BMW M Little Boys Club on the QEW-complete idiots all lined up across the lanes and not letting anybody pass. I hope our Hot Dog Gang does not do anything like that.

Zeeman28a

I've received comments like this for the past 7 years that I've been organizing cruises. I've found that everyone has an opinion of why they participate, and why they don't. And I'm 100% positive that organizers that came before had to put up with the same. And truthfully, it's gotten to the point that I no longer want to hear them. It's one of the reasons why I've stopped organizing the last couple of years. And the same can probably be said for past organizers.

The positive remarks have always vastly outnumbered the bad ones and I've noticed that the bad ones usually come from those "participants" that rarely come out. I guess you could say it's a reason why they rarely come out. But the bad comments do take a toll, especially when they are presented as bullying or hate remarks (this has been my experience).

As an organizer, I've tried my best to keep everyone in line, but you can't stop drivers from wanting to show boat. And again, truthfully, those of us that drive these types of cars, like to do a little bit of show boating. Some just take it to an extreme than most others, and nowadays, that can hurt the entire group more than just the individual driver if something goes bad or gets caught in the act.

I am aware of 2 of the 4 incidents that formula1nut mentions. The first is the C7 that got impounded. That person is not even part of this group here. He hangs out with another group that like to drive spiritedly. But what they did on that day shows very bad judgement and they paid the price. Its a reason why cars like Corvette's, Ferrari's, Lamborghini's, Porsche's, etc tend to get bad press when **** happens. We all get painted as "bad" drivers.

The 2nd is a person in this group whom some of us know. Fish tailing out of a parking lot like that reminds me of all those you tube videos I see with drivers losing control and careening into tress, bushes, or worse other cars and or crowds of people. Fortunately, he had the skill to keep the car under control. But furmula1nut, and others I might add, is right in saying that if something bad happened, or had he been caught by the police, while he may have received the brunt results of his actions, because he was with a group, we all would have been affected by it.

As for the ticket and device usage, you can't really generalize that on the group as, as you are aware, it is more wide spread over almost every other driver out on the road, no matter what they drive. But the media is more likely to report a bad Corvette driver over a bad Civic or minivan driver, unless the minivan driver is a mother of three doing 200kph on the highway and charged with a dui, with her kids in the car, when finally stopped by the police.

The one thing that I have warned drivers at all my cruises, especially with new comers, you don't know who is cruising with you. I've organized cruises where we've had drivers that work in emergency services, like the police. I'm not talking parking attendants or office staff or what not, but actual police officers. I've led a couple of cruises with them in attendance and I will pass along what they told me. It basically went like this:

"Stan. You are doing a great job of leading a well behaved cruise. But there are a couple of guys at the back of the pack that are doing things that could get us to shut down this cruise. We see this as potential of what they are doing getting more and more reckless if you don't put a stop to it. And if they continue that is exactly what we will do."

At one of our stops, I did talk to both drivers and told them to cool their heels as we didn't want to attract the attention of the police. I did not mention that we had a couple in the group with us. There were even a couple of other drivers that did the same without me prompting them to do so. I do believe the majority want to drive safely and have a great cruise experience.

And the same goes for our HDR runs that we do every Thursday. The Toronto Police, and the OPP, are very well aware of us. They do keep an eye out, and I've been told that they know where we are at all times. It's usually on purpose when we see them driving past us. We've been approached a few times during our runs and except for 1 incident a few years ago, it's been nothing but praise from them.

I'm not sure what the point of my little rant is other than to say that as organizers we do our best to make the cruise enjoyable for everyone. Just cause people put up pictures or videos of drivers doing whatever, you are not getting the whole picture, just the bad few seconds that people show. I know I have warned some drivers about putting up, what you might call, incriminating videos, but we cannot control the actions of a driver if they decide to drive recklessly, aggressively, spiritedly or any other verb you want to use. All we can do is try to warn them that their actions not only affect them, but the group as a whole and if they decide to continue, ask them to leave the group.

formula1nut, I am sorry that your exposure to these cruises has given you the idea that these cruises are like this all the time. They are not. You as a driver, always have the option, to leave the group if you are not enjoying it. You as a driver, also have the option to drive as you see fit. You really should come out to a cruise and experience one for yourself and not make any judgments based on pictures or videos you find posted on the forum, youtube or facebook or wherever else they are posted, otherwise, you'll never experience one.

Zeeman28a

Well, I wouldn't say never.

walleyejack

well said Stan.

Zeeman28a

Thanks Al. But it's probably too much. Should have just posted the last paragraph.

RAGGDOLL

Well said Stan.

Al, you should take a note of Stan’s writing style. Being defensive, accusatory and making quip remarks in your responses makes you look like an immature kid.

Black 03 Z06

Ok, I have probably done a few dumb things before so I won't point fingers.

I have noticed something and that is the group does attract other drivers doing dumb things. A couple of years ago on one of Stan's pre cruise runs we stopped in Haliburton at Baked and Battered for lunch. After that we were on the way to the Haliburton look out just outside of town. At the traffic lights where we were turning right some bozo in a pickup truck did a huge burnout right beside on of our group then shouted they would blame it on the Corvettes anyhow.

On another run up Highway 35 north of Highway 118 the group was running 15 to 20 over and yet another driver was bent on passing each and every car, he did, putting not only members from our group but others at risk.

Another occasion Stan had stopped the group on Highway 169 just outside of Gravenhurst. Guy came around the corner stopped on the highway looked at the group then disappeared in a cloud of tire smoke over the hill.

We cannot do anything about those folks but they for certain impact us as well.

If a cruiser drops back to enjoy the scenery no problem the group always waits for everyone to catch up.

These events are tough to put on. Stan, Faraz, Les and others have done a great job but if there are 40 plus cars there are 40 plus personalities so like any group some things are difficult to control. If I participate the driving responsibility is clearly mine as is the responsibility not to bring unwanted attention on the group.

Just my opinion.

formula1nut

Stan: well said and I agree with you almost completely. I do believe that 90% of the time participants act appropriately. However my fundamental point is that the bad apple spoils the barrel and in this case I am saying the bad apple spoils the orchard. Again displaying photos and videos of these actions REALLY has the potential to hurt all Corvette drivers

I am retired from an organization where photos and videos of a very few people destroyed the image of that organization and its several thousand employees. I don't want the same to happen to us.

corrado

9Stan and Murray (Black 03 Z06) said it best, I agree 200%.


I have been cruising with members from here about 11 years now. The VAST majority are great guys and drive normal.
Sure, we buy our Vettes to drive fast on occasion, but nothing crazy, and I don't engage in street racing. I got nothing to prove. In life, Just because you can, doesn't always mean you should...

I know there are other car groups in the Toronto are that do race, and unwise enough to sometimes post videos online. But that is NOT us, and they are the reason why I only cruise with these guys!

I am well aware our cars draw attention so no need to make it worse by being an idiot. Sometimes one of the drivers get a little out of line, but it's fairly rare. I cannot afford to lose my license and if I was afraid of that, I wouldn't be cruising regularly like I do and will continue to do so.

RAGGDOLL

Sage advice eh?

BTW, you ain't Vetteless in that beast your driving now

WildWilly55

What fines????????
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$