Help an OCD guy with a fresh re-paint...
08-15-2008, 11:44 PM
#1
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Help an OCD guy with a fresh re-paint...
Almost done with my massive targa conversion and repaint project (details can be seen here) The cliffs notes of the paint saga are as follows:
* Try to get a deal from newer shop, shop botches job, horrible color consistancy, trash in paint, runs. Shop used Dupont Chroma Premier
* New shop that I should have taken it to from the get go finds that clear coat is very thin when attempting to sand/buff. After inspection I approve full re-clear w/ BASF show clear (forget the number)
* After good clear is on the car we find that the base coat was laid poorly, lots of texture when looking through the clear at the right angles. I approve full re-paint.
* Shop paints car using single stage as a base coat then clear over top. Works very well for color consistancy when panel painting a yellow car. (For the record I used to be an insurance adjuster, have been to many a paint class, been in many body shops, and have an ultra pickey eye).
So... the car is finished and shop color sands the car with 1200, then 3000, then 4000 in spots. They then hit it with a wool pad and some compound, then two other pad stages, one black and one white, cannot remember which one was less aggressive. They finished it off w/ a coat of NXT 2.0.
Im prepping the car for Carlisle and going over it like a hawk. Im finishing up the interior re-install and putting the final touches on the targa setup. Ive noticed something is different... the car doesnt pop like my car used to with a good detail. Plus even with very little orange peel (almost none) I was really noticing what was left.
I inspect the paint with a flourescent shop light and I see it... there are tiny scratches and pigtails (from the buffer) all over the car still. This is whats making the minor texture in the clear more noticeable. So... Im at the point where the car nees a proper buffing to really bring out the brilliance of the paint.
Where do I start? Im probably going to have the shop do it, but pay them this go around so they take more time. They were in a bit of a hurry to get me the car back to get it ready for Carlisle so Im not sure if maybe they rushed a step or missed a step.
Do I start back with an aggressive compoint and a wool pad and go from there?
The front buper looks good... which is what made me start asking why it looked better than the rest of the car and I figured it out.
I had the rockers, lower doors, and areas behind the wheels clear brad yesterday, which kind of stinks, but the clear bra hides all that stuff anyway so it should be a non issue once I do the rest of the car and wax over it all.
Some shots of the whole car:
Targa!
Back
Left side
It can shine... when not looking uber close under flourescent lights
Car looing pale in this light
Thanks for heling an OCD car guy
* Try to get a deal from newer shop, shop botches job, horrible color consistancy, trash in paint, runs. Shop used Dupont Chroma Premier
* New shop that I should have taken it to from the get go finds that clear coat is very thin when attempting to sand/buff. After inspection I approve full re-clear w/ BASF show clear (forget the number)
* After good clear is on the car we find that the base coat was laid poorly, lots of texture when looking through the clear at the right angles. I approve full re-paint.
* Shop paints car using single stage as a base coat then clear over top. Works very well for color consistancy when panel painting a yellow car. (For the record I used to be an insurance adjuster, have been to many a paint class, been in many body shops, and have an ultra pickey eye).
So... the car is finished and shop color sands the car with 1200, then 3000, then 4000 in spots. They then hit it with a wool pad and some compound, then two other pad stages, one black and one white, cannot remember which one was less aggressive. They finished it off w/ a coat of NXT 2.0.
Im prepping the car for Carlisle and going over it like a hawk. Im finishing up the interior re-install and putting the final touches on the targa setup. Ive noticed something is different... the car doesnt pop like my car used to with a good detail. Plus even with very little orange peel (almost none) I was really noticing what was left.
I inspect the paint with a flourescent shop light and I see it... there are tiny scratches and pigtails (from the buffer) all over the car still. This is whats making the minor texture in the clear more noticeable. So... Im at the point where the car nees a proper buffing to really bring out the brilliance of the paint.
Where do I start? Im probably going to have the shop do it, but pay them this go around so they take more time. They were in a bit of a hurry to get me the car back to get it ready for Carlisle so Im not sure if maybe they rushed a step or missed a step.
Do I start back with an aggressive compoint and a wool pad and go from there?
The front buper looks good... which is what made me start asking why it looked better than the rest of the car and I figured it out.
I had the rockers, lower doors, and areas behind the wheels clear brad yesterday, which kind of stinks, but the clear bra hides all that stuff anyway so it should be a non issue once I do the rest of the car and wax over it all.
Some shots of the whole car:
Targa!
Back
Left side
It can shine... when not looking uber close under flourescent lights
Car looing pale in this light
Thanks for heling an OCD car guy
Last edited by Cobra4B; 08-16-2008 at 09:28 AM.
08-16-2008, 07:15 AM
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St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10
Depending on how many trails (buffing marks) you can see, I would go with the SIP/NANO combo from Menzerna, and then top it off with some silly Fuzion from Wolfgang!!! 
This combo appears to be the winning one when it comes to corvettes!!!!
I would do SIP with a foam pad first, seeing as how you just had your car re-painted so I don't see it being that bad. Then hit your car with Nano and a white pad, then seal it with Wolfgang Sealant 3.0 and then top it with Fuzion, and watch it POP..
PM Brian (Evil_C5) as he knows ALL the little tricks of the trade. But this combo has been very successful for me!!!! Good luck!!!!
This combo appears to be the winning one when it comes to corvettes!!!!
I would do SIP with a foam pad first, seeing as how you just had your car re-painted so I don't see it being that bad. Then hit your car with Nano and a white pad, then seal it with Wolfgang Sealant 3.0 and then top it with Fuzion, and watch it POP..
PM Brian (Evil_C5) as he knows ALL the little tricks of the trade. But this combo has been very successful for me!!!! Good luck!!!!
08-16-2008, 09:20 AM
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St. Jude Donor '09
The shop that painted your car, sanded it and induced the swirl marks to begin with are the ones who are 100% responsible and are liable to make it right in my opinion.........
You've already paid them they didn't hold up their end of the serivce. I'd show them the swirl marks personallly and explain to them that this kind of work is not acceptable and you want them to rebuff the entire car with someone who knows what they are doing. Don't let them use a glaze or wax after the buff, that will hide the trails for a couple of washes. I'd bring some Prep-Sol along for your inspection and wipe the surface down a few times to see if they indeed removed the trail marks. Get it out in direct sunlight.
Also, explain to them that if they can't go the job right that you'll get your own detail pro to fix their poor work and they can pay for it......
Good luck, don't spend any more money.......
You've already paid them they didn't hold up their end of the serivce. I'd show them the swirl marks personallly and explain to them that this kind of work is not acceptable and you want them to rebuff the entire car with someone who knows what they are doing. Don't let them use a glaze or wax after the buff, that will hide the trails for a couple of washes. I'd bring some Prep-Sol along for your inspection and wipe the surface down a few times to see if they indeed removed the trail marks. Get it out in direct sunlight.
Also, explain to them that if they can't go the job right that you'll get your own detail pro to fix their poor work and they can pay for it......
Good luck, don't spend any more money.......
08-16-2008, 09:26 AM
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^ There's no need for me to be an *******... they did an amazing job on the paint and were the first shop I've ever dealt with that wasn't full of excueses.
They re-did my entire car for about 1/2 of what they'd normally charge becuase he knew all the bull**** I'd allready been through and he knows my car will be a nice addition to his portfolio (they've painted most of the local Vipers, Ferraris, and do tons of Porsche work). He told me in the time my car was at the shop it helped him sell 4 overall paint jobs.
Being an OCD perfectionist when it comes to my car it might be better for me to whip out the PC and go to town on it and just do one panel a night or something.
I've found that demanding a service from a business rarely results in top notch work.
They re-did my entire car for about 1/2 of what they'd normally charge becuase he knew all the bull**** I'd allready been through and he knows my car will be a nice addition to his portfolio (they've painted most of the local Vipers, Ferraris, and do tons of Porsche work). He told me in the time my car was at the shop it helped him sell 4 overall paint jobs.
Being an OCD perfectionist when it comes to my car it might be better for me to whip out the PC and go to town on it and just do one panel a night or something.
I've found that demanding a service from a business rarely results in top notch work.
08-16-2008, 09:38 AM
#5
Safety Car
Brian, Can you take some direct sun shots of your paint?
Look at this post by Todd and see if yours has some of the same defects:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...544&highlight=
Just to clarify what you are seeing in the paint.
Pigtails-These are small sanding marks left when the shop used a orbital sander to do the wetsanding. They can be caused by different things.
1. The sanding disc is not 100% clean when they used it or became contaminated during use.
2. The airsander they used has too much movement or throw. The airvantage air sanders (3"/6") I used have a 3/32 throw. A PC for example has a 3/8" throw.
Two ways that pigtails can me removed:
1. The area is wetsanding again via machine or hand and then polished out with wool followed by foam.
2. Using a heavier cut compound and more aggressive wool the areas are compounded out.
Its very easy to take a wool pad to a car and make the paint shine, but doing at least 2 more steps is usually what is required to properly polish a car out.
The steps I would take with a rotary are:
1. Lake country purple foamed wool or edge yellow wool with 3m extra cut compound to remove the pigtails or wetsanding marks. This could take 2-4x to get the pigtails or wetsanding marks out.
2. Menzerna SIP with a green german lake country foam pad. When properly used this should remove any wool pad "effect" and only leave slight holograms. The key here is to finish out the clear as perfect as possible with this step.
3. Finish with 3m ultrafina or Menzerna 085rd using a 3M blue ultrafina foam pad or a lake country blue CSS foam pad.
Look at this post by Todd and see if yours has some of the same defects:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...544&highlight=
Just to clarify what you are seeing in the paint.
Pigtails-These are small sanding marks left when the shop used a orbital sander to do the wetsanding. They can be caused by different things.
1. The sanding disc is not 100% clean when they used it or became contaminated during use.
2. The airsander they used has too much movement or throw. The airvantage air sanders (3"/6") I used have a 3/32 throw. A PC for example has a 3/8" throw.
Two ways that pigtails can me removed:
1. The area is wetsanding again via machine or hand and then polished out with wool followed by foam.
2. Using a heavier cut compound and more aggressive wool the areas are compounded out.
Its very easy to take a wool pad to a car and make the paint shine, but doing at least 2 more steps is usually what is required to properly polish a car out.
The steps I would take with a rotary are:
1. Lake country purple foamed wool or edge yellow wool with 3m extra cut compound to remove the pigtails or wetsanding marks. This could take 2-4x to get the pigtails or wetsanding marks out.
2. Menzerna SIP with a green german lake country foam pad. When properly used this should remove any wool pad "effect" and only leave slight holograms. The key here is to finish out the clear as perfect as possible with this step.
3. Finish with 3m ultrafina or Menzerna 085rd using a 3M blue ultrafina foam pad or a lake country blue CSS foam pad.
08-16-2008, 09:41 AM
#6
Safety Car
^ There's no need for me to be an *******... they did an amazing job on the paint and were the first shop I've ever dealt with that wasn't full of excueses.
They re-did my entire car for about 1/2 of what they'd normally charge becuase he knew all the bull**** I'd allready been through and he knows my car will be a nice addition to his portfolio (they've painted most of the local Vipers, Ferraris, and do tons of Porsche work). He told me in the time my car was at the shop it helped him sell 4 overall paint jobs.
Being an OCD perfectionist when it comes to my car it might be better for me to whip out the PC and go to town on it and just do one panel a night or something.
I've found that demanding a service from a business rarely results in top notch work.
They re-did my entire car for about 1/2 of what they'd normally charge becuase he knew all the bull**** I'd allready been through and he knows my car will be a nice addition to his portfolio (they've painted most of the local Vipers, Ferraris, and do tons of Porsche work). He told me in the time my car was at the shop it helped him sell 4 overall paint jobs.
Being an OCD perfectionist when it comes to my car it might be better for me to whip out the PC and go to town on it and just do one panel a night or something.
I've found that demanding a service from a business rarely results in top notch work.
I would not take it back to them either as from what you told us they do not know how to properly polish out paint.
08-16-2008, 09:48 AM
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St. Jude Donor '09
^ There's no need for me to be an *******... they did an amazing job on the paint and were the first shop I've ever dealt with that wasn't full of excueses.
They re-did my entire car for about 1/2 of what they'd normally charge becuase he knew all the bull**** I'd allready been through and he knows my car will be a nice addition to his portfolio (they've painted most of the local Vipers, Ferraris, and do tons of Porsche work). He told me in the time my car was at the shop it helped him sell 4 overall paint jobs.
Being an OCD perfectionist when it comes to my car it might be better for me to whip out the PC and go to town on it and just do one panel a night or something.
I've found that demanding a service from a business rarely results in top notch work.
They re-did my entire car for about 1/2 of what they'd normally charge becuase he knew all the bull**** I'd allready been through and he knows my car will be a nice addition to his portfolio (they've painted most of the local Vipers, Ferraris, and do tons of Porsche work). He told me in the time my car was at the shop it helped him sell 4 overall paint jobs.
Being an OCD perfectionist when it comes to my car it might be better for me to whip out the PC and go to town on it and just do one panel a night or something.
I've found that demanding a service from a business rarely results in top notch work.
Wow.......(I'm on your side here)
Having a car painted for Carlisle and getting it back with buffer trails in the paint is poor work, sorry but that's a common problem with some paint shops.
It's not bing an a$$h*le to expect a better job than that. Pointing out the paint issues to the owner and telling him to fix them is not something that he's new to dealing with IMO. If you want to keep paying though, be my guest......
If the owner the shop is a stand up guy he'll apologize for the job and get it done right.......Try that first. Asking in a nice way but firm is what I'm talking about here......
Good luck.....
Last edited by Dave1; 08-16-2008 at 09:51 AM.
08-16-2008, 10:05 AM
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I'll try to in a few days, but to priority is getting the car drivable again.
That's exactly what I need someone to do.
I'm not sure it's a case of them not knowing how to do it... I'm assuming it's that it was more of a rush job, but we'll see.
Thanks... I just feel a bit bad considering the piant job would normally have been in the $6000 range to demand him spend 15-20 hours on the car going over it again. I discussed it with him yesterday evening about the remaining subtle orange peel etc. and he said he was just wnating to get it looking adequate for Carlisle and that he has fully done a few cars. One local Viper that I've seen a bunch... said it took about 4 hours per panel on the car to do it all.
I'm going to enjoy Carlisle and let them (the shop) have some time away from my car and then take it back.
Look at this post by Todd and see if yours has some of the same defects:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...544&highlight=
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...544&highlight=
Wow.......(I'm on your side here)
Having a car painted for Carlisle and getting it back with buffer trails in the paint is poor work, sorry but that's a common problem with some paint shops.
It's not bing an a$$h*le to expect a better job than that. Pointing out the paint issues to the owner and telling him to fix them is not something that he's new to dealing with IMO. If you want to keep paying though, be my guest......
If the owner the shop is a stand up guy he'll apologize for the job and get it done right.......Try that first. Asking in a nice way but firm is what I'm talking about here......
Good luck.....
Having a car painted for Carlisle and getting it back with buffer trails in the paint is poor work, sorry but that's a common problem with some paint shops.
It's not bing an a$$h*le to expect a better job than that. Pointing out the paint issues to the owner and telling him to fix them is not something that he's new to dealing with IMO. If you want to keep paying though, be my guest......
If the owner the shop is a stand up guy he'll apologize for the job and get it done right.......Try that first. Asking in a nice way but firm is what I'm talking about here......
Good luck.....
I'm going to enjoy Carlisle and let them (the shop) have some time away from my car and then take it back.
08-16-2008, 10:15 AM
#9
Former Vendor
since the shop used a different clear than the OEM covering, you might wanna ask them what they suggest. Typically the Menzerna SIP / 106FF works well at removing these marks especially with a rotary and bringing on a show winning finish. That said, they might be able to help you now while paint is still in its curing stages.
Fuzion would be delicious on such a nice ride, but please remember it offers no cleaners or polishes. Its the perfect showing wax and Souveran would be another nice offering that should exceed your expectations.
Fuzion would be delicious on such a nice ride, but please remember it offers no cleaners or polishes. Its the perfect showing wax and Souveran would be another nice offering that should exceed your expectations.
08-16-2008, 12:39 PM
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Ok... doing some research on AutoGeek... looking at the Flex Buffer kit. Would the Flex w/ the purple wool pad and some 3M extra cut do the job? Followed by SIP and then some fine polish and then sealed then waxed?
Or... should I try SIP with something like the harder orange pad first? Will the DA do the job?
I have no experience with a rotary and don't care to screw up my car perfecting my techniques.
Or... should I try SIP with something like the harder orange pad first? Will the DA do the job?
I have no experience with a rotary and don't care to screw up my car perfecting my techniques.
08-16-2008, 02:24 PM
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Ok... doing some research on AutoGeek... looking at the Flex Buffer kit. Would the Flex w/ the purple wool pad and some 3M extra cut do the job? Followed by SIP and then some fine polish and then sealed then waxed?
Or... should I try SIP with something like the harder orange pad first? Will the DA do the job?
I have no experience with a rotary and don't care to screw up my car perfecting my techniques.
Or... should I try SIP with something like the harder orange pad first? Will the DA do the job?
I have no experience with a rotary and don't care to screw up my car perfecting my techniques.
See you at Carlisle we will talk!
Andy Wheeler
08-16-2008, 02:26 PM
#13
Safety Car
Ok... doing some research on AutoGeek... looking at the Flex Buffer kit. Would the Flex w/ the purple wool pad and some 3M extra cut do the job? Followed by SIP and then some fine polish and then sealed then waxed?
Or... should I try SIP with something like the harder orange pad first? Will the DA do the job?
I have no experience with a rotary and don't care to screw up my car perfecting my techniques.
Or... should I try SIP with something like the harder orange pad first? Will the DA do the job?
I have no experience with a rotary and don't care to screw up my car perfecting my techniques.
08-16-2008, 02:49 PM
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^ I don't know if I have a digital camera good enough, but I'll try. Does it have to be in the sun? It's in my garage now and we're putting my new head unit in tonight.
08-16-2008, 02:55 PM
#15
Safety Car
Can't help with the post but cool Targa conversion !! custom done or did you have someone do it? ALso wanted to comment on the Sound deader kit. Looks like you did a very clean job of it! what type and how was the difference in noise ??
good luck with the paint !
good luck with the paint !
08-16-2008, 03:11 PM
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^ Click my link in the first post where it says "here". That will show you all of it... I did everything to the car with the help of a few friends other than actually spraying the paint. It's not a Caravaggio kit, we custom built the roof.
As for the sound deadening... thread covers that too, but it's a layer of eDead which is a mass damper covered by Ensolite Foam which is a closed cell foam that acts as a noise barrier.
It's worked well in my buddies' cars and makes the stock Blowse stereo sound 100x better. But... my car insn't 100% done yet so I don't now how it has worked... I'll know in the next few days
As for the sound deadening... thread covers that too, but it's a layer of eDead which is a mass damper covered by Ensolite Foam which is a closed cell foam that acts as a noise barrier.
It's worked well in my buddies' cars and makes the stock Blowse stereo sound 100x better. But... my car insn't 100% done yet so I don't now how it has worked... I'll know in the next few days
08-17-2008, 05:12 PM
#17
Drifting
sweet ride hope all works out with the paint
08-17-2008, 05:16 PM
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^ Thanks... I think it just needs a top notch professional detail. That or I need to learn how to wetsand and buff, juts not sure I want to learn on my freshly painted car. I know how to buff a little, and wet sanding doesn't seem to terribly hard, but I'm sure I'd screw up a few areas.
08-17-2008, 08:39 PM
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St. Jude Donor '09
^ Thanks... I think it just needs a top notch professional detail. That or I need to learn how to wetsand and buff, juts not sure I want to learn on my freshly painted car. I know how to buff a little, and wet sanding doesn't seem to terribly hard, but I'm sure I'd screw up a few areas.
Your car has been my screen saver at work for a couple of years......
Fresh paint needs to cure. Get a pro and pay him to get it right when the time comes....There are many capable guys, you just have to find one. I've followed some of your threads on this car and your friend network is rather large. You shouldn't have any trouble finding a well qualified candidate for your C5. Your corvette club should know the right people, put the word out and sit back and wait for the bites....
Good luck.......
