Autogeek or anyone, consequences of not breaking down polish enough?
11-17-2009, 02:43 PM
#1
Safety Car
Thread Starter
Autogeek or anyone, consequences of not breaking down polish enough?
Lets take Menzerna Power Finish for example. If you're machine polishing and you don't break down the abrasives long enough, what happens? How can you tell when the polish is broken down to where it should be?
11-17-2009, 03:28 PM
#3
Former Vendor
If you're using a product that utilizes diminishing abrasives, and you don't work the product until the abrasives have completely broken down, then you risk leaving swirls by the yet not broken down abrasives.
That is if the abrasives still have a size to them and you're moving them over the surface with pressure either by hand or machine, then if they are doing their job, (abrading the surface), then they will likely be leaving swirls or scratches behind.
As to how to know when the diminishing abrasives have broken down?
Use the manufactures recommendations as your first point of reference and then after that experience and trial and error.
There are different types of diminishing abrasives as well as sizes and concentrations in a formula so there is no hard rule that applies to all products.
One mistake I've see people make over the years however is to skip reading the manufactures directions on the label and then using a product in a manner that's not in line with the directions.
For example, I've seen a lot of people try to use Meguiar's M01 Medium Cut Cleaner with a DA style polisher when right on the back label is says for use with a rotary buffer only and part of the reason for this is because it takes the power of a direct drive tool to effectively work the abrasives enough to break them down.
Lots of factors involved, playing with and testing a product on a black or dark colored finish and then inspecting with bright lights should help you see if you're getting good results or not.
In most cases you want to work a product long enough to break down the diminishing abrasives but not so long that you go to a complete dry buff. When you buff to a dry buff you have lost all lubricity and so the potential for friction increases.
That is if the abrasives still have a size to them and you're moving them over the surface with pressure either by hand or machine, then if they are doing their job, (abrading the surface), then they will likely be leaving swirls or scratches behind.
As to how to know when the diminishing abrasives have broken down?
Use the manufactures recommendations as your first point of reference and then after that experience and trial and error.
There are different types of diminishing abrasives as well as sizes and concentrations in a formula so there is no hard rule that applies to all products.
One mistake I've see people make over the years however is to skip reading the manufactures directions on the label and then using a product in a manner that's not in line with the directions.
For example, I've seen a lot of people try to use Meguiar's M01 Medium Cut Cleaner with a DA style polisher when right on the back label is says for use with a rotary buffer only and part of the reason for this is because it takes the power of a direct drive tool to effectively work the abrasives enough to break them down.
Lots of factors involved, playing with and testing a product on a black or dark colored finish and then inspecting with bright lights should help you see if you're getting good results or not.
In most cases you want to work a product long enough to break down the diminishing abrasives but not so long that you go to a complete dry buff. When you buff to a dry buff you have lost all lubricity and so the potential for friction increases.
11-17-2009, 03:33 PM
#4
Safety Car
Thread Starter
If you're using a product that utilizes diminishing abrasives, and you don't work the product until the abrasives have completely broken down, then you risk leaving swirls by the yet not broken down abrasives.
That is if the abrasives still have a size to them and you're moving them over the surface with pressure either by hand or machine, then if they are doing their job, (abrading the surface), then they will likely be leaving swirls or scratches behind.
As to how to know when the diminishing abrasives have broken down?
Use the manufactures recommendations as your first point of reference and then after that experience and trial and error.
There are different types of diminishing abrasives as well as sizes and concentrations in a formula so there is no hard rule that applies to all products.
One mistake I've see people make over the years however is to skip reading the manufactures directions on the label and then using a product in a manner that's not in line with the directions.
For example, I've seen a lot of people try to use Meguiar's M01 Medium Cut Cleaner with a DA style polisher when right on the back label is says for use with a rotary buffer only and part of the reason for this is because it takes the power of a direct drive tool to effectively work the abrasives enough to break them down.
Lots of factors involved, playing with and testing a product on a black or dark colored finish and then inspecting with bright lights should help you see if you're getting good results or not.
In most cases you want to work a product long enough to break down the diminishing abrasives but not so long that you go to a complete dry buff. When you buff to a dry buff you have lost all lubricity and so the potential for friction increases.
That is if the abrasives still have a size to them and you're moving them over the surface with pressure either by hand or machine, then if they are doing their job, (abrading the surface), then they will likely be leaving swirls or scratches behind.
As to how to know when the diminishing abrasives have broken down?
Use the manufactures recommendations as your first point of reference and then after that experience and trial and error.
There are different types of diminishing abrasives as well as sizes and concentrations in a formula so there is no hard rule that applies to all products.
One mistake I've see people make over the years however is to skip reading the manufactures directions on the label and then using a product in a manner that's not in line with the directions.
For example, I've seen a lot of people try to use Meguiar's M01 Medium Cut Cleaner with a DA style polisher when right on the back label is says for use with a rotary buffer only and part of the reason for this is because it takes the power of a direct drive tool to effectively work the abrasives enough to break them down.
Lots of factors involved, playing with and testing a product on a black or dark colored finish and then inspecting with bright lights should help you see if you're getting good results or not.
In most cases you want to work a product long enough to break down the diminishing abrasives but not so long that you go to a complete dry buff. When you buff to a dry buff you have lost all lubricity and so the potential for friction increases.
How about 105 and 205? Are those easier to work with as a result of non diminishing abrasives?
11-18-2009, 11:51 AM
#5
Drifting
meg's 105/205 not so much easier but FASTER your not spending as much time waiting for the polish to break down, the abrasives don't diminish in-turn your polishing passes are cutting at your selected concentration of cut. less time wasted waiting for the polish to break down and do it's job
With Menzerna polishes the break down point is when the polish starts to change to a hazy clear color at this point it's broken down.
A trick you can use to extend your polishing time is to spritz with some distilled water to add some lubricity back into the polish
You don't want to dry buff (induces swirls)and saves on using more polish then is needed.
I hope this helps
John Stig
With Menzerna polishes the break down point is when the polish starts to change to a hazy clear color at this point it's broken down.
A trick you can use to extend your polishing time is to spritz with some distilled water to add some lubricity back into the polish
You don't want to dry buff (induces swirls)and saves on using more polish then is needed.
I hope this helps
John Stig
11-18-2009, 12:21 PM
#6
Safety Car
Thread Starter
meg's 105/205 not so much easier but FASTER your not spending as much time waiting for the polish to break down, the abrasives don't diminish in-turn your polishing passes are cutting at your selected concentration of cut. less time wasted waiting for the polish to break down and do it's job
With Menzerna polishes the break down point is when the polish starts to change to a hazy clear color at this point it's broken down.
A trick you can use to extend your polishing time is to spritz with some distilled water to add some lubricity back into the polish
You don't want to dry buff (induces swirls)and saves on using more polish then is needed.
I hope this helps
John Stig
With Menzerna polishes the break down point is when the polish starts to change to a hazy clear color at this point it's broken down.
A trick you can use to extend your polishing time is to spritz with some distilled water to add some lubricity back into the polish
You don't want to dry buff (induces swirls)and saves on using more polish then is needed.
I hope this helps
John Stig
11-18-2009, 12:24 PM
#7
Safety Car
Thread Starter
11-18-2009, 01:30 PM
#8
Drifting
just DON'T DRY BUFFIf you are on your final polishing steps i would highly recommend the spritz with distilled water the polish is at its finest and with the added lube from the h2o you will increase the life of the polish at its finest state. it's called burnishing the paint for that little extra bling
John Stig
11-18-2009, 03:15 PM
#9
Melting Slicks
Member Since: Jan 2004
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Difference between Diminishing and Standard Abrasive Polishes
Diminishing Abrasives Technology
A non-linear abrasive requires kinetic (or dynamic) friction - the majority of polishes on the market use a form of diminishing (non- linear) abrasive, which you polish to a ‘haze’ (i.e. when a polish "flashes" from a liquid paste to a light semi-dry haze, much like a coating of Vaseline®) the diminishing polish has then broken down and is ready for removal.
Diminishing abrasives, as the name suggests; reduces t he size of the abrasives randomly due to surface friction, and therefore go from removing paint defects to polishing, and then burnishing the paint, which produces a shine.
If you don't break them down sufficiently, you are just grinding those abrasive particles into your paint, without polishing it, which can leave behind marring and other paint surface imperfections. Therefore it is important to know when a polish has broken down because if you take it too far you will re-introduce surface marring by dry-buffing.
During the polishing process, trace amounts of paint and / or oxidation is removed; this can cause the debris and the polish to “load-up the pad. This can cause a haze to the paint surface, a wipe-down or a paint cleaning product will eliminate this.
Pros - Menzerna diminishing abrasive polishes are formulated with a long lasting lubricant. The abrasives break down before the lubricating oils dry out, thereby giving polish a longer working time and producing less abrasive dust and avoiding dry buffing.
Cons - Menzerna lubrication oils can be really resistant to removal; it may take 2-3 IPA wipe-downs.
Non- Diminishing Abrasives Technology
A linear abrasive that require time and pressure - unlike diminishing abrasives, which require kinetic (or dynamic) friction to enable the abrasives to 'break-down to obtain the best possible finish (and avoid holograms) non-diminishing abrasives react very differently. It will be as abrasive as you want it to be, time and pressure applied (linear abrasive) being its working criteria. Block wet sanding (finishing paper and a sanding block) is the most effective tool for paint defect removal because of its linear process you abrade the paint surface flat until the defects are removed. Non- diminishing abrasives, a flat foam pad and a rigid backing plate are very similar in application.
The other similarity between using a non-diminishing abrasive polish and block wet-sanding with finishing paper; the cleaner the media, the more consistent the polishing will be. It the polishing media becomes ‘loaded-up, they lose their abrasive abilities. A linear abrasive eliminates the ‘abrasive cycle’ as you have a constant and consistent abrasive medium, the longer you work the abrasive the more surface defects are removed.
Linear abrasive polishes / compounds provides a constant cutting abrasive, as the abrasives remains uniform in size throughout the polishing process, so you need to check the surface often. They should be used with a semi-rigid backing plate and a cutting foam or wool pad until the defects are removed (1200 – 1500 RPM).
Do not allow the polish lubrication too completely dry (as this will also produce holograms) and ensure that pad surface is cleaned by removing paint / polish debris regularly This type of compound / polish process usually requires subsequent polishing step(s) to further refine the finish and to produce a shine
Pros - because of its linear process you abrade the paint surface flat until the defects are removed.
Cons - the lubricating oils dry out, thereby providing a shorter working time, producing more abrasive dust and the possibility of dry buffing, hazing and holograms
Diminishing Abrasives Technology
A non-linear abrasive requires kinetic (or dynamic) friction - the majority of polishes on the market use a form of diminishing (non- linear) abrasive, which you polish to a ‘haze’ (i.e. when a polish "flashes" from a liquid paste to a light semi-dry haze, much like a coating of Vaseline®) the diminishing polish has then broken down and is ready for removal.
Diminishing abrasives, as the name suggests; reduces t he size of the abrasives randomly due to surface friction, and therefore go from removing paint defects to polishing, and then burnishing the paint, which produces a shine.
If you don't break them down sufficiently, you are just grinding those abrasive particles into your paint, without polishing it, which can leave behind marring and other paint surface imperfections. Therefore it is important to know when a polish has broken down because if you take it too far you will re-introduce surface marring by dry-buffing.
During the polishing process, trace amounts of paint and / or oxidation is removed; this can cause the debris and the polish to “load-up the pad. This can cause a haze to the paint surface, a wipe-down or a paint cleaning product will eliminate this.
Pros - Menzerna diminishing abrasive polishes are formulated with a long lasting lubricant. The abrasives break down before the lubricating oils dry out, thereby giving polish a longer working time and producing less abrasive dust and avoiding dry buffing.
Cons - Menzerna lubrication oils can be really resistant to removal; it may take 2-3 IPA wipe-downs.
Non- Diminishing Abrasives Technology
A linear abrasive that require time and pressure - unlike diminishing abrasives, which require kinetic (or dynamic) friction to enable the abrasives to 'break-down to obtain the best possible finish (and avoid holograms) non-diminishing abrasives react very differently. It will be as abrasive as you want it to be, time and pressure applied (linear abrasive) being its working criteria. Block wet sanding (finishing paper and a sanding block) is the most effective tool for paint defect removal because of its linear process you abrade the paint surface flat until the defects are removed. Non- diminishing abrasives, a flat foam pad and a rigid backing plate are very similar in application.
The other similarity between using a non-diminishing abrasive polish and block wet-sanding with finishing paper; the cleaner the media, the more consistent the polishing will be. It the polishing media becomes ‘loaded-up, they lose their abrasive abilities. A linear abrasive eliminates the ‘abrasive cycle’ as you have a constant and consistent abrasive medium, the longer you work the abrasive the more surface defects are removed.
Linear abrasive polishes / compounds provides a constant cutting abrasive, as the abrasives remains uniform in size throughout the polishing process, so you need to check the surface often. They should be used with a semi-rigid backing plate and a cutting foam or wool pad until the defects are removed (1200 – 1500 RPM).
Do not allow the polish lubrication too completely dry (as this will also produce holograms) and ensure that pad surface is cleaned by removing paint / polish debris regularly This type of compound / polish process usually requires subsequent polishing step(s) to further refine the finish and to produce a shine
Pros - because of its linear process you abrade the paint surface flat until the defects are removed.
Cons - the lubricating oils dry out, thereby providing a shorter working time, producing more abrasive dust and the possibility of dry buffing, hazing and holograms
An extract from one of a series of 110 in-depth, unbiased “Detailing Technical Papers” © TOGWT ™ Ltd Copyright 2002-2009, all rights reserved.
Last edited by TOGWT; 11-18-2009 at 03:22 PM.
11-20-2009, 11:16 AM
#11
Drifting
Yes and no
I find with meg's 105/205 priming the pad works very well because its a non-diminishing polish and dry's out fairly quickly.You get the same cut from start to finish and has plenty of product in the pad from loading up the pad(priming)
With Menzerna diminishing polishes not so much because you are trying to get the product to break down,if you keep infusing new product from(priming the pad)your polishing process never allows it to break down,so you never are polishing at it's finest cut .
Different products =different processes
I hope this helps good luck
John Stig
I find with meg's 105/205 priming the pad works very well because its a non-diminishing polish and dry's out fairly quickly.You get the same cut from start to finish and has plenty of product in the pad from loading up the pad(priming)
With Menzerna diminishing polishes not so much because you are trying to get the product to break down,if you keep infusing new product from(priming the pad)your polishing process never allows it to break down,so you never are polishing at it's finest cut .
Different products =different processes
I hope this helps good luck
John Stig
Last edited by stig-zzz; 11-20-2009 at 11:18 AM.
11-20-2009, 11:40 AM
#12
Melting Slicks
Member Since: Jan 2004
Location: Ponte Vedra Beach / London State: Dazed and confused
Posts: 2,909
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Yes and no
I find with meg's 105/205 priming the pad works very well because its a non-diminishing polish and dry's out fairly quickly.You get the same cut from start to finish and has plenty of product in the pad from loading up the pad(priming)
With Menzerna diminishing polishes not so much because you are trying to get the product to break down,if you keep infusing new product from(priming the pad)your polishing process never allows it to break down,so you never are polishing at it's finest cut .
Different products =different processes
I hope this helps good luck
John Stig
I find with meg's 105/205 priming the pad works very well because its a non-diminishing polish and dry's out fairly quickly.You get the same cut from start to finish and has plenty of product in the pad from loading up the pad(priming)
With Menzerna diminishing polishes not so much because you are trying to get the product to break down,if you keep infusing new product from(priming the pad)your polishing process never allows it to break down,so you never are polishing at it's finest cut .
Different products =different processes
I hope this helps good luck
John Stig
11-20-2009, 11:48 AM
#13
Safety Car
Thread Starter
Excellent info!
IMO, it seems Megs products would be easier to work with for a beginner considering you don't have to "know" when the polish has broken down. I like the idea of getting the same cut from start to finish.
IMO, it seems Megs products would be easier to work with for a beginner considering you don't have to "know" when the polish has broken down. I like the idea of getting the same cut from start to finish.
