NMCA C4/C5/C6 Shootout May 1-3 - Bowling Green, KY

how many 10.0 guys will be totally legal for next year??

 
Old 09-02-2008, 10:34 AM
  #21  
dennis50nj
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Originally Posted by DOUG @ ECS View Post
Being that I'm probably the one who started using the throttle limiter the most, all I can say is we are utilizing the factory PCM to it's limits, if others didn't think of it or have that capability then oh well. That would be the same if I whined over having to race you with a trans brake, would I complain? No, I would get a trans brake installed if I felt the difference was too much.

This is why I actually told my guys to not say anything because there will always be someone whining about something, but what you are not taking into account is that it allows guys to run more classes with the same car, either way you have to cut a light and run your race.
and some luck helps too
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Old 09-02-2008, 04:02 PM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by DOUG @ ECS View Post
Being that I'm probably the one who started using the throttle limiter the most, all I can say is we are utilizing the factory PCM to it's limits, if others didn't think of it or have that capability then oh well. That would be the same if I whined over having to race you with a trans brake, would I complain? No, I would get a trans brake installed if I felt the difference was too much.

This is why I actually told my guys to not say anything because there will always be someone whining about something, but what you are not taking into account is that it allows guys to run more classes with the same car, either way you have to cut a light and run your race.
whining - complain nothing , tell it how it is more like it.

trans brakes are okay in this class , throttle stops of any kind are a no-no in the 10.oohh or 11.50. read the rules for the 10.ohh Doug , just like it says your corvette MUST meet nhra tech , it says no to throttle stops. You guys were the 1st to use the pcm as a throttle stop .
You guys are doing a great job at ECS helping your customers win, congrats . but dont try to change the subject of trans brake & throttle stop.
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Old 09-02-2008, 06:22 PM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by REDGAR View Post
I think if we had to go that route Mike I would be more likely to propose two bracket classes.

A fast one and a regular one.

PS it is Monday
Edgar, more classes
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Old 09-02-2008, 06:36 PM
  #24  
DOUG @ ECS
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Originally Posted by tensecvet View Post
whining - complain nothing , tell it how it is more like it.

trans brakes are okay in this class , throttle stops of any kind are a no-no in the 10.oohh or 11.50. read the rules for the 10.ohh Doug , just like it says your corvette MUST meet nhra tech , it says no to throttle stops. You guys were the 1st to use the pcm as a throttle stop .
You guys are doing a great job at ECS helping your customers win, congrats . but dont try to change the subject of trans brake & throttle stop.

Mike, I know you know enough about race cars to know that there is a huge difference between a throttle stop that NHRA is referring too, and limiting the throttle. Any carburated guy can limit throttle with simple linkage adjustments and be legit within any NHRA class. We happen to do it electronically, but there is no difference.
There are no timers or adjusting throttles mid track etc, nor can we if we wanted to via the factory PCM, nothing about it is against NHRA rules, so lets not try and take away from some of the guys having a good season utilising these things. If you or others feel it is B.S. well I'm sorry, but we are within rules, and frankly there is no way it could be regulated.
I guess like PaulZ has said, as soon as someone does well, others try to pick em apart. Either way I respect you as a fellow racer, and can only suggest that you utilize options that are available to you.
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Old 09-02-2008, 07:11 PM
  #25  
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Doug, when the nhra implemented the throttle stop rule there was no drive by wire throttles used in competition. It might get interesting to see if the new drag pack mopar has success in a class that they are not allowed to use t/s's how it gets ruled upon.

I dont have a problem with the way you guys limit the throttle, however I feel the rule limits everyone else but the d-b-w cars. This has nothing to do with your success and your guys. Lift the rule and no issue.

Thats my opinion, not for debate
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Old 09-02-2008, 07:30 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by DOUG @ ECS View Post
Mike, I know you know enough about race cars to know that there is a huge difference between a throttle stop that NHRA is referring too, and limiting the throttle. Any carburated guy can limit throttle with simple linkage adjustments and be legit within any NHRA class. We happen to do it electronically, but there is no difference.
There are no timers or adjusting throttles mid track etc, nor can we if we wanted to via the factory PCM, nothing about it is against NHRA rules, so lets not try and take away from some of the guys having a good season utilising these things. If you or others feel it is B.S. well I'm sorry, but we are within rules, and frankly there is no way it could be regulated.
I guess like PaulZ has said, as soon as someone does well, others try to pick em apart. Either way I respect you as a fellow racer, and can only suggest that you utilize options that are available to you.
Doug i wish all the racers the best, especially Jay or any ECS driver. but to hear the racers say "they set thier throttles at 85 percent to run a certain number or mph ", it sounds like a throttle stop... Ireally dont know about "this or that"throttle stop Doug , but it sounds like you found a loophole , best of luck.
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Old 09-02-2008, 07:44 PM
  #27  
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I dont get why you guys feel it is for DBW cars only? any carb or cable car can limit throttle? I could understand if we were able to do the things that a throttle stop can do, but we cant, simple as that?

I am not into all out race cars so maybe Leo could explain better, but it is my understanding (which can be incorrect) that a throttle stop makes it harder to judge that car at the line since it is going faster then it's respected ET would normally be, we cant do that so there is no advantage to the racer other than being able to run more classes with the same car.

either way it is going to be hard to say you cant use the factory pcm so the whole argument is somewhat pointless and I do not want this to become a debate, so I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I wish you guys all the best and good luck.
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Old 09-02-2008, 08:59 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by mackeyred96 View Post
Edgar, more classes
Nope, this would be less and it was was a joke..
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Old 09-02-2008, 09:03 PM
  #29  
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Stop with the throttle stop.

a car tuned to 85% is no different than a driver put his foot down 85% of the way, a nitrous driver changing a jet or a driver putting 100 lbs in the car to slow a tenth

Now if you are saying a drive has the ability to factor in wheel speed and change the fuel and timing during the run then we have a problem.

I don't think any of our drivers are doing that and if they are, take the laptops out and we are done.
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Old 09-02-2008, 09:10 PM
  #30  
2003VETT
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It cant be done on the fly with EFI Live, to my knowledge. At least I cant, and wont. PCM has to be flashed and that takes about 2 minutes!
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Old 09-02-2008, 10:09 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by REDGAR View Post
Stop with the throttle stop.

a car tuned to 85% is no different than a driver put his foot down 85% of the way, a nitrous driver changing a jet or a driver putting 100 lbs in the car to slow a tenth

Now if you are saying a drive has the ability to factor in wheel speed and change the fuel and timing during the run then we have a problem.
Think about it E, if it worked that way - $1.00 worth of washers is all that is needed and not $900 program - I am not saying make it illegal, I am saying remove the rule! Corvette Power
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Old 09-02-2008, 10:28 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by REDGAR View Post
Stop with the throttle stop.

a car tuned to 85% is no different than a driver put his foot down 85% of the way, a nitrous driver changing a jet or a driver putting 100 lbs in the car to slow a tenth
i would say there is a more human factor putting your foot down 85% , same spot ,round after round, then having a computer do it for you.
nitrous motor is much harder to tune (timers-jets), then using a computer to 85% throttle you down the track....
the weight put in properly is legal, ithink
i'm done E just had to speak what some have said


let us all us throttle stops is a good idea twisted

get your cars legal if you go 9's , or dont race at etown.simple ........
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Old 09-02-2008, 10:39 PM
  #33  
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Not for nothing, but Like it or not... Tuning is tuning..... You cant tell someone you cant tune your car to run a number..... Like Edgar said If Doug or anyone else sets a tune and thats the tune the cars going to run without changes during the run its legit.....
A car that pulls timing and fuel during a run to run a set index is illegal...
I change my throttle position using a manual device since my throttle aint electronic...... Same concept just old school..... There way is alot easier... But I can see in the future there being problems with that system,,,,... PEACE.
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Old 09-02-2008, 10:49 PM
  #34  
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So to try and get us back on topic....
I only see 9 cars.
it could be 8. Mike are you saying both your cars are running 10.0 next year?

I am not really seeing all 9 on the list jumping up and saying they will run 10.0.

I am also not seeing enough cars to sustain a 16 car field all season.

So with that said, I would like to see all agree or disagree to the 10/10.5 proposal
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Old 09-02-2008, 11:32 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by tensecvet View Post
i would say there is a more human factor putting your foot down 85% , same spot ,round after round, then having a computer do it for you.
nitrous motor is much harder to tune (timers-jets), then using a computer to 85% throttle you down the track....
the weight put in properly is legal, ithink
i'm done E just had to speak what some have said


let us all us throttle stops is a good idea twisted

get your cars legal if you go 9's , or dont race at etown.simple ........
are elevator timers legal??mike
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Old 09-02-2008, 11:34 PM
  #36  
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Dude you might be in the wrong class if you are asking that.

What are elevator timers? Do we need to outlaw them?
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Old 09-02-2008, 11:39 PM
  #37  
MPRTKLR
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I will be fully legal for next season Just let me know what class I need to sign up for so I can start planning my ROTY campaign
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Old 09-03-2008, 12:07 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by MPRTKLR View Post
I will be fully legal for next season Just let me know what class I need to sign up for so I can start planning my ROTY campaign
Full legal would be registering in the 10.0 class
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Old 09-03-2008, 12:11 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by INSANITY View Post
Not for nothing, but Like it or not... Tuning is tuning..... You cant tell someone you cant tune your car to run a number..... Like Edgar said If Doug or anyone else sets a tune and thats the tune the cars going to run without changes during the run its legit.....
A car that pulls timing and fuel during a run to run a set index is illegal...
I change my throttle position using a manual device since my throttle aint electronic...... Same concept just old school..... There way is alot easier... But I can see in the future there being problems with that system,,,,... PEACE.
I use just the wastegates at 7lbs of boost and lower timing to run in the 11.5 index and my regular timing and boost controller to up boost to 10lbs and run the 10.0

I can adjust boost pressure .1 psi up down whatever to get me closer to 10.0 or next year 10.5

Same thing as using throttle position. I can do throttle position also, but i've dialed in this way which was pretty easy so I continue to go that route. Either way its the same result, I run faster or slower.

We can all pull timing, add fuel, whatever to slow our cars down. I'm not opposed to anyone doing the same IMO
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Old 09-03-2008, 12:16 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by MPRTKLR View Post
I will be fully legal for next season Just let me know what class I need to sign up for so I can start planning my ROTY campaign
Yeah I would expect a fully legal car would want to run in 10.0 (and keep in mind there is no change at the moment...I am just gathering input)

I would think a fully caged car is going to be all over 10.0 and would want to play in 10.5. Mark is in the middle of rebuilding and he has stated he would go to 10.5 on his build. I would imagine a conservative non power adder motor that happens to sit in a car that ran 8.8s at one point with a totally different combination.
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