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What if there were no student loans?

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Old 12-03-2011, 11:35 PM
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Answer to the OP:

We wouldn't have Latinos mowing our yards, doing our roofing, construction etc etc.
And our Country would be much more secure.
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Old 12-04-2011, 12:18 AM
  #162  
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Originally Posted by VITE1 View Post
No, I am not Naive.

The problem here is Easy Money. When you have GOVERNMENT backed loans you have a market that no longer measures risk against reward. The housing crash is a good example.

Higher education cost have gone up faster than inflation due to easy money. End the easy money situation and help end the out of control growth in Higher education costs.

Lastly Home equity loans are just part of a way to pay for higher education. What about apprenticeships? Military and business tuition reimbursements?

Do what you want with your money and your kids futre. Stop asking me and the rest of the taxpayers to subsidize it.

And lastly you are aware that the amount of Doctors entering the work force is controlled by the government? It's done by Medicare, yet another example of massive government failure, by limiting the number of Internships they pay for ( they pay for almost 80%).
You are right...you are not naive. Naive is too mild a word. You are totally uninformed with an unfounded bias about the loan process and docs in the marketplace.

Just in case you care, my kids have zero debt.
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Old 12-04-2011, 08:06 AM
  #163  
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Originally Posted by vette6799 View Post
You are right...you are not naive. Naive is too mild a word. You are totally uninformed with an unfounded bias about the loan process and docs in the marketplace.

Just in case you care, my kids have zero debt.
You obviously did not read my post above about Medicare financing Residency's. This directly controls the number of new Doctors entering the system. If the FACTS are wrong please correct me and show me where I was wrong.

As to my contention that Easy money is raise the costs of education.

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articl...-college-costs
Why the Government is to Blame for High College Costs

Federal student loans are driving up college costs and adding to the deficit


By Mary Kate Cary
November 23, 2011 RSS Feed Print

Last month President Obama, facing increasingly violent Occupy Wall Street protests nationwide, announced executive action to help alleviate the heavy burden of student debt faced by many of the young, unemployed protesters. Although many of the protesters are blaming private banks and corporate "fat cats" for the financial pickle they're in, the president thought he'd calm them down by easing the terms of repayment and forgiveness. What Obama didn't tell them is that it's really the federal government they should blame.

A year ago, the president signed legislation ending subsidies for private banks giving federally guaranteed student loans—making the federal government, not banks, the lender of choice for most students. You can still get private bank loans for your college education, but since they no longer are backed by the U.S. government, private loans aren't as good a deal anymore; most are variable rate loans that require a co-signer and are difficult to qualify for. So it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see why most kids take out federal student loans from the Department of Education now, and leave the bank loans as a last resort.

[U.S. News's Debate Club: Is a College Degree Still Worth It.]

Back in the mid-1980s when I went to college, there was a $2,500 limit on the amount of federal student loans you could take out in a year. I graduated with $10,000 of debt and worked three jobs to pay it off. That's all changed. The limit on federal loans for most students is now $31,000 for four years. These days, the average college senior who had loans graduates with $25,250 in student debt, a new record, with some high-tuition colleges averaging double that, at over $55,000 per student. Unemployment has hit a new high among young people, and their median incomes are falling. Many of them are having trouble finding a job and making their loan payments. A whole generation of middle-class students is being crushed by student debt.

It all goes back to two well-intentioned federal goals: first, that a college education should be within the reach of every American, and second, that if students borrow money from the federal government, they should repay it. Most of us would agree that both are noble goals. But the consequences of both have been stunning.

As a result of the first, the money began to flow; over the last 30 years, inflation-adjusted federal financial aid has quadrupled. Total student debt has now reached the $1 trillion mark, more than the credit card debt of every American combined. The federal deficit in the recently ended fiscal year totaled $1.3 trillion; the debt load carried by college grads now stands at more than two thirds of our nation's massive budget shortfall. According to the College Board, over half of all full-time undergrads at public colleges and universities are now full-time borrowers. At private nonprofit schools, a whopping two thirds have loans.

[See a collection of political cartoons on the budget and deficit.]

The more money the federal government pumps into financial aid, the more money the colleges charge for tuition. Inflation-adjusted tuition and fees have tripled over those same 30 years while aid quadrupled; the aid is going up faster than the tuition. Thanks to the federal government, massive sums of money are available to pay for massive tuitions.

This has nothing to do with costs. According to Neal McCluskey's research at the Cato Institute, it costs roughly $8,000 a year to educate an undergraduate at an average residential college. Yet the average college bill—including room and board—charged at a private four-year university is $37,000, and $16,000 at a public one. For a long time, college tuition has been rising faster than the inflation rate, which certainly has hurt middle-class families. Colleges can raise tuition with impunity because colleges know they'll get paid no matter what.

That brings us to that second well-intentioned federal goal, that all student loans must be repaid. In 1976 federal law was changed to state that student loans would no longer be "dischargeable," or covered by bankruptcy. Along the way, the federal government also removed the requirement that college students have parents or grandparents co-sign for federal loans, making young students solely responsible for payment in full.

This means that if you owe the government money for college and don't pay it back, filing bankruptcy isn't going to help you. You will still owe the government. All you can do is default on the loan or seek early forgiveness. And that's exactly what's happening. According to the Department of Education, the national default rate has increased every year for the last four years, and has nearly doubled since 2005. As the administration forgives more loans and defaults keep climbing, the cost to taxpayers keeps going up.

[Read how today's young adults are suffering more financially than older generations.]

It's not crazy to talk about making student loans dischargeable again, or even capping the number of federally guaranteed loans so that private banks can compete for more borrowers. But the bigger challenge is reducing the cost of tuition in the first place. Tuitions are artificially high directly because of federal financial aid. "It's a vicious cycle," McCluskey recently explained in a speech. "Students tell the politicians, 'We don't want to pay this much for college,' and politicians respond by throwing more money at them, and colleges respond by increasing costs."

While critics charge that gradually cutting back on federal financial aid is "heartless," doing so would actually be one of the most compassionate things we can do in the long run for middle-class families. Going to college is a big part of the American Dream for many young people, but well-meaning "help" from the federal government is driving up costs, creating massive debt, and, in some cases, ruining lives.
Government backed student loan debt is nearly one Trillion UDS
http://www.finaid.org/loans/studentloandebtclock.phtml

Congratulations on your kids being debt free. Mine are as well. SO why is it OUR responsibility to provide financing for those parents that have failing in their responsibility?

Why is it OUR responsibility to underwrite peoples education when Million of others have found that they can do it on their own?

Last edited by VITE1; 12-04-2011 at 08:12 AM.
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Old 12-04-2011, 09:01 AM
  #164  
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Originally Posted by VITE1 View Post
You obviously did not read my post above about Medicare financing Residency's. This directly controls the number of new Doctors entering the system. If the FACTS are wrong please correct me and show me where I was wrong.

As to my contention that Easy money is raise the costs of education.

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articl...-college-costs

Government backed student loan debt is nearly one Trillion UDS
http://www.finaid.org/loans/studentloandebtclock.phtml

Congratulations on your kids being debt free. Mine are as well. SO why is it OUR responsibility to provide financing for those parents that have failing in their responsibility?

Why is it OUR responsibility to underwrite peoples education when Million of others have found that they can do it on their own?
Government funding is not for medical schools (although vast amounts of federally funded research occur in med schools), where after four expensive years doctors are "created", but for residency training. If the training weren't paid for by the government, no one would do it - it is just too expensive. The only way we are even coming close to having enough doctors to handle patients in the US is for foreign-trained docs to come to the US and do their residencies here. Because residency training is incredibly expensive, it made sense, 15 years ago, to reduce funding in an attempt to have a balance. Market manipulation has nothing to do with it. If you want to get rich, medicine is not the way to do it, at least not the MD part of the equation.

If you wanted to have more docs enter the system by increasing the number of med schools, you are looking at about eight years minimum to see your first doctor, assuming that your facilities are in place. The number that is thrown about routinely from the time you want to open a new med school to having your first doctor complete training is a minimum of 12 years, when you include building a school and setting up a program which must be heavily subsidized.

As far as the loans and costs of college go, I read the articles you noted. Loan forgiveness should not occur except in cases of extreme hardship, such as a permanent debilitating illness. I don't disagree with the costs of college being out of control. I have been the victim of that also. My kids went to public out of state universities because of the excellent engineering programs in certain schools (Michigan). Out of state students get hammered and subsidize in-state tuition. Tuition alone these days is over 40K, and that doesn't include the cost of living. Throw books, travel home, and the remaining items into the bucket, and the cost of education was between 50 and 60K per year. Throw in a couple of years for a graduate engineering degree and four years of med school, and the numbers are staggering, and this is after tax dollars.

Which brings me to my next point. There is simply no way MOST kids can afford the cost of education, particularly if it includes professional schools. Even the cheapest in-state U's cost 20K or more these days, tuition and room and board, and the number is going up quickly as states budgets remain stressed. Your guy from the Cato institution forgot the cost of living. A PhD in the sciences/engineering, normally doesn't require assistance as tuition and a stipend are normally part of the deal. They get cheap research, you get an education, but that isn't the case with professional schools. If you go to med school, it is a full time job...you are busy from the time you wake up until the time you go to sleep with school. Many med schools are charging in the 40-50K range for tuition alone, and they are losing their shirts. The programs have to be subsidized. Most kids going to med schools finish with huge amounts of debt - often 150 K or more, and the interest rates are in the 6-7 percent range, with interest accrual taking place with much of the loan amount. Law school and business schools are also very expensive, although I am not sure why someone would go to law school these days.

Bottom line, education is a killer.

Last edited by vette6799; 12-04-2011 at 09:11 AM.
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Old 12-04-2011, 12:02 PM
  #165  
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I am the average middle class white male who graduated from high school number 628 out of 1255 students. I had to pay for college out of pocket. I was able to pay for one year at Baylor university with loans but I didn't qualify for any scholarships a Pell grant for $500.

As for the original question, what if there were no scholarships and people had to pay for college out of pocket, College would be cheaper and your degree would actually mean something. A college degree use to mean you had something that set you apart from the rest of the applicant pool for any particular job. Now a degree means you sat in class for x number of hours while not paying attention and the proposed place of employment can teach you to do your job their way once they hire you. I know some absolute idiots with college degrees and I know some freaking geniuses without them...
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Old 12-04-2011, 12:27 PM
  #166  
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Originally Posted by VITE1 View Post
Wow, Like Wow



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicar...ical_Education

I know facts may not feel right but this is what happens when you let Government manipulate the market.


http://www.policymed.com/2010/01/bus...-shortage.html
I don't disagree with that. But you do realize that residency training is an optional, post-graduate specialty training. Graduates of medical schools can start practicing family and many other specialties w/o any additional training.
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Old 12-04-2011, 07:04 PM
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Read thru all these posts and here is my 2 cents. I agree with many that the cost would be less if the government would get out of the lending biz. Schools just keep charging more since they know the funding will keep on coming from Uncle Sam. Hmm... Looks familiar as we all saw this with the housing crisis. Uncle Sam backed mortgages that people couldnt afford. So here we go again loading up kids with debt, no collateral behind it so this will be the next shoe to drop to help spiral our economy downward. The spigot has to be turned off to allow some sense of balance. Many of these schools have their own mini governments with huge layers of administrators. Add to the fact that their are so many useless degrees that do nothing to help a child progress in society. I went to college and graduated in 85. I went to engineering school for two years and then realized It wasn't cut out for me. Finally finished my degree at local school part of CUNY (City University of New York). I have worked with Ivy Leaguers over the past 20+yrs. in financial services and in many cases out earning many of them. Yes, many of you say it's not about the $$$ but it certainly helps when you support a wife and three kids. My oldest is 14 and we are speaking to him about college costs etc. I have been saving for all three every month but know we can't pay for everything. I'm hoping for scholarship, grants or loans to help them out. The costs today are insane and makes you wonder is it really worth it? If these costs are not contained I may just put my 9 yr old daughter into her own business. Sometimes you question if it really is worth the return. The Govt has to stop the lending and costs will have to drop. These kids have no idea how they are burying themselves financially.
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Old 12-04-2011, 10:28 PM
  #168  
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Originally Posted by PeterK View Post
I don't disagree with that. But you do realize that residency training is an optional, post-graduate specialty training. Graduates of medical schools can start practicing family and many other specialties w/o any additional training.
You are wrong. You can't be licensed without at least one year of training after med school. An MD degree is not a license. You need to take your boards, which have three parts, and the third part is at the end of a year of residency/internship.
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Old 12-05-2011, 09:55 AM
  #169  
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Originally Posted by 65 Hardnoks View Post
Answer to the OP:

We wouldn't have Latinos mowing our yards, doing our roofing, construction etc etc.
And our Country would be much more secure.
Nothing says secure like a well manicured lawn.

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Old 12-07-2011, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Entropy View Post
Your disdain for higher education is pretty well documented here in OT. I don't know where that comes from, but I can see where for some it would have been a poor choice, while for others it was really the only choice.

Is est quis is est.
Has it really come to the point in America where we're calling high school physics "higher education" in day to day conversation?
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Old 12-07-2011, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by smearig View Post
Nothing says secure like a well manicured lawn.

I packed WAY to much insight into those sentences for your mind to handle. I apologize.
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Old 12-07-2011, 04:24 PM
  #172  
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First half, out of my pocket, second half, out of Uncle Sam's pocket(GI bill that I worked 4 years at sub standard pay to get)
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