Comparison Test, by Proxy: 2010 Chevrolet Camaro vs. 2009 Dodge Challenger SRT8
02-29-2008, 12:58 PM
#1
Comparison Test, by Proxy: 2010 Chevrolet Camaro vs. 2009 Dodge Challenger SRT8
lifted from Camaro5.com
original post: http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3010
______________________
Wherein We Call a Knockout Before the First Round
- Edmunds Inside Line
Platform sharing. Gotta love it. Car companies spread the cost of developing a crash structure or a suspension system or powertrain over a number of different models that theoretically will appeal to different paying customers. It's economies of scale, as the guys wearing the suits like to call it.
Yeah, cool. But the real benefit of platform sharing is that it allows Inside Line to conduct a comparison test of two vehicles that we have not yet actually tested. In fact, we have not even seen the production version of one of the two combatants, the 2010 Chevrolet Camaro. We have driven a 2009 Dodge Challenger SRT8, which you might think would give the reborn Mopar something of an advantage over the reborn bowtie. You, however, would be wrong.
Since we will be using data from the 2008 Pontiac G8 GT we just track-tested and the Dodge Charger SRT8 that we've tested on a couple of occasions to draw some conclusions about the Camaro and Challenger, you could call this a comparison test by proxy. Or you could call it silly. But you cannot call our conclusions invalid. And if you did, we probably wouldn't listen anyway.
So, let's get the make-believe motors running and head out onto the hypothetical highway.
Where the Rubber Meets the Road (or Soon Will)
First, let's take a moment to thank the folks at Chrysler, LLC and its SRT division for making this part of the comparison such a total gimme. So, thank you and good luck with that whole "future" thing.
For all the hoopla and the car's unique bitchin'-ness, the Challenger SRT8 that the company introduced at February's Chicago auto show is essentially a two-door version of the Charger SRT8. Both carry the identical 6.1-liter Hemi V8 — a bored-out version of the standard 5.7-liter motor. Both run the same 10.3:1 compression ratio. Both gulp 91-octane gasoline. Both make the same 425 horsepower at 6,200 rpm and 420 pound-feet of torque at 4,800 rpm. And the coolant capacity? The same 14 quarts. Possibly, you're getting our drift.
Both send all that power through the same five-speed shiftable automatic transmission that carries the same gear ratios and on to the rear axle, which carries the same ratio. Both cars are held off the ground by the same dual control-arm front and five-link independent rear suspensions. Both use Bilstein monotube dampers, front and rear. They carry identical Brembo-designed brakes and are fitted with Goodyear three-season tires of the same size, 245/45/20 front and 255/45/20 rear.
And although the Challenger's wheelbase is 4 inches shorter than the Charger's, Chrysler claims the Challenger is only 20 pounds lighter than the big-brother sedan. At 4,140 pounds and 4,160 pounds, both are heavyweights.
Dodge claims that the Charger SRT8 thunders to 60 mph in "the low-5-second range" and on to a "quarter-mile time under 14 seconds." When last we tested a Charger SRT8, we came away with a 60-mph sprint of 5.3 seconds and a quarter-mile run of 13.6 seconds at 105.8 mph.
Unless Dodge has something very tricky up its sleeve (unlikely), the Challenger isn't going to be much quicker. The company claimed at its Chicago auto show press conference that the Challenger SRT8 could get to 60 mph in 4.9 seconds. We're going to guess something more on the order of 5.1 seconds. This all depends on how strong the particular test engine is and on what surface the acceleration run is conducted.
No matter, for as impressive as its acceleration is, we can't help but think it could be faster if both cars weren't so heavy and didn't wear those big old 20-inchers.
Lies, and the Lying Liars Who Lie Them
The 2010 Camaro is a little harder to figure because Chevy won't release official specifications on the production car for some time. But it's not like the car is going to have a four-cylinder turbodiesel and a third row of seats. The Camaro shares its basic component set and family of engines with the Pontiac G8. It will, in fact, be built on the same production line in Australia as the Pontiac and its Holden-branded brethren.
Rated at 400 hp, a 6.0-liter LS2 engine was under the hood of the 2006 Camaro concept. That engine has been replaced in GM's lineup by the 6.2-liter LS3 engine, which makes 436 hp in the Corvette. We expect that this will be the main V8 option for the Camaro, which will carry a 3.6-liter V6 standard. We expect that it will be detuned to right around 400 hp to prevent it from challenging the Corvette. We also expect GM to cite plumbing restrictions for the car's intake and exhaust systems for the drop in power.
The G8 GT carries the so-called L76 6.0-liter rated at 361 hp. The benefit of that particular small-block is that it allows the car to squeak into the market without carrying a gas-guzzler tax — at least while bolted to the mandatory automatic transmission. Should Chevy decide to use this motor for the same reason, it still won't be at as much of a disadvantage to the 425-hp Challenger SRT8 as you might think.
Drag Queen
Consider that the Pontiac G8 we just tested ran to 60 mph in 5.4 seconds and made it through the quarter in 13.7 seconds at 104.1 mph. And, yes, that was accomplished with the 6L80 six-speed automatic, which will likely be the Camaro's optional transmission. Those figures are essentially identical to the Charger SRT8's numbers.
And the G8 GT does that with ridiculously tall 2.92:1 rear axle gears. Chevy will probably shorten those up a bit in the Camaro, which would make the car even quicker.
Either way, the Camaro's available six-speed manual transmission should nudge it ahead of the more powerful Dodge. This assumes that the General doesn't do anything silly like mount 21-inch iron rims and fill the backseat with lead. Of course, the crystal ball says there will be a Challenger SRT8 with a six-speed manual in 2009 and that might even things up.
Or will it? Rumor is Pontiac will get a version of the Corvette's LS3 making about 400 hp for a GXP model. If that's the motor the V8 version of the Camaro carries, it should be able to pull a 0-60-mph run in the high 4-second range. And we expect the Camaro will be somewhat lighter than the G8 sedan's 4,100 pounds. Figure Chevy will claim a curb weight somewhere around 3,800 pounds. God help Dodge should Chevy decide to do a limited higher-performance SS model with the 505-hp LS7 from the Corvette Z06 or the 620-hp supercharged LS9 from the Corvette ZR1.
A 0-60-mph run in the high 4s and a quarter-mile in the low 13s would put the Camaro LS3 way ahead of the Mopars, but still behind the Shelby GT500 Mustang, which our radar gun clocked at 12.8 seconds in the quarter-mile. A Z06-powered Camaro, however, could take the crown.
That Other Stuff
Handling is a stickier issue to figure. It's worth noting that the G8 GT and Charger SRT8 are remarkably close in terms of lateral grip (0.85g G8 and 0.84g Charger) and slalom speeds (65.7 mph G8 and 66 mph Charger). We therefore expect that the Camaro SS and Challenger SRT8, which share the same basic suspensions with their sedan brethren, will be a near dead heat in terms of quantifiable handling traits.
And if the performance of the sedans is as predictive as we expect it to be, the Camaro will trounce the Challenger under braking. Despite big Brembo brakes, the Charger SRT8s we tested stopped from 60 mph in 120 feet and 135 feet. The Pontiac G8 halted from the same speed in a world-class 109 feet. For perspective, a Shelby GT500 does it in 120 feet and a Porsche 911 Carrera S stops in just 103 feet.
If you're having trouble accepting our conclusion that the 2010 Chevy Camaro wins a comparison test simply because we haven't "tested" them, then perhaps it would help if you imagine, as we are right now, that we're hammering the two cars at our double-top-secret location where all the roads are twisty, all the cops have wooden legs and a man and his muscle cars may lay rubber with total impunity. This would be right next to the beer springs.
Now, if you'll excuse us, we must be off to a victory party for the next U.S. president.
original post: http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3010
______________________
Wherein We Call a Knockout Before the First Round
- Edmunds Inside Line
Platform sharing. Gotta love it. Car companies spread the cost of developing a crash structure or a suspension system or powertrain over a number of different models that theoretically will appeal to different paying customers. It's economies of scale, as the guys wearing the suits like to call it.
Yeah, cool. But the real benefit of platform sharing is that it allows Inside Line to conduct a comparison test of two vehicles that we have not yet actually tested. In fact, we have not even seen the production version of one of the two combatants, the 2010 Chevrolet Camaro. We have driven a 2009 Dodge Challenger SRT8, which you might think would give the reborn Mopar something of an advantage over the reborn bowtie. You, however, would be wrong.
Since we will be using data from the 2008 Pontiac G8 GT we just track-tested and the Dodge Charger SRT8 that we've tested on a couple of occasions to draw some conclusions about the Camaro and Challenger, you could call this a comparison test by proxy. Or you could call it silly. But you cannot call our conclusions invalid. And if you did, we probably wouldn't listen anyway.
So, let's get the make-believe motors running and head out onto the hypothetical highway.
Where the Rubber Meets the Road (or Soon Will)
First, let's take a moment to thank the folks at Chrysler, LLC and its SRT division for making this part of the comparison such a total gimme. So, thank you and good luck with that whole "future" thing.
For all the hoopla and the car's unique bitchin'-ness, the Challenger SRT8 that the company introduced at February's Chicago auto show is essentially a two-door version of the Charger SRT8. Both carry the identical 6.1-liter Hemi V8 — a bored-out version of the standard 5.7-liter motor. Both run the same 10.3:1 compression ratio. Both gulp 91-octane gasoline. Both make the same 425 horsepower at 6,200 rpm and 420 pound-feet of torque at 4,800 rpm. And the coolant capacity? The same 14 quarts. Possibly, you're getting our drift.
Both send all that power through the same five-speed shiftable automatic transmission that carries the same gear ratios and on to the rear axle, which carries the same ratio. Both cars are held off the ground by the same dual control-arm front and five-link independent rear suspensions. Both use Bilstein monotube dampers, front and rear. They carry identical Brembo-designed brakes and are fitted with Goodyear three-season tires of the same size, 245/45/20 front and 255/45/20 rear.
And although the Challenger's wheelbase is 4 inches shorter than the Charger's, Chrysler claims the Challenger is only 20 pounds lighter than the big-brother sedan. At 4,140 pounds and 4,160 pounds, both are heavyweights.
Dodge claims that the Charger SRT8 thunders to 60 mph in "the low-5-second range" and on to a "quarter-mile time under 14 seconds." When last we tested a Charger SRT8, we came away with a 60-mph sprint of 5.3 seconds and a quarter-mile run of 13.6 seconds at 105.8 mph.
Unless Dodge has something very tricky up its sleeve (unlikely), the Challenger isn't going to be much quicker. The company claimed at its Chicago auto show press conference that the Challenger SRT8 could get to 60 mph in 4.9 seconds. We're going to guess something more on the order of 5.1 seconds. This all depends on how strong the particular test engine is and on what surface the acceleration run is conducted.
No matter, for as impressive as its acceleration is, we can't help but think it could be faster if both cars weren't so heavy and didn't wear those big old 20-inchers.
Lies, and the Lying Liars Who Lie Them
The 2010 Camaro is a little harder to figure because Chevy won't release official specifications on the production car for some time. But it's not like the car is going to have a four-cylinder turbodiesel and a third row of seats. The Camaro shares its basic component set and family of engines with the Pontiac G8. It will, in fact, be built on the same production line in Australia as the Pontiac and its Holden-branded brethren.
Rated at 400 hp, a 6.0-liter LS2 engine was under the hood of the 2006 Camaro concept. That engine has been replaced in GM's lineup by the 6.2-liter LS3 engine, which makes 436 hp in the Corvette. We expect that this will be the main V8 option for the Camaro, which will carry a 3.6-liter V6 standard. We expect that it will be detuned to right around 400 hp to prevent it from challenging the Corvette. We also expect GM to cite plumbing restrictions for the car's intake and exhaust systems for the drop in power.
The G8 GT carries the so-called L76 6.0-liter rated at 361 hp. The benefit of that particular small-block is that it allows the car to squeak into the market without carrying a gas-guzzler tax — at least while bolted to the mandatory automatic transmission. Should Chevy decide to use this motor for the same reason, it still won't be at as much of a disadvantage to the 425-hp Challenger SRT8 as you might think.
Drag Queen
Consider that the Pontiac G8 we just tested ran to 60 mph in 5.4 seconds and made it through the quarter in 13.7 seconds at 104.1 mph. And, yes, that was accomplished with the 6L80 six-speed automatic, which will likely be the Camaro's optional transmission. Those figures are essentially identical to the Charger SRT8's numbers.
And the G8 GT does that with ridiculously tall 2.92:1 rear axle gears. Chevy will probably shorten those up a bit in the Camaro, which would make the car even quicker.
Either way, the Camaro's available six-speed manual transmission should nudge it ahead of the more powerful Dodge. This assumes that the General doesn't do anything silly like mount 21-inch iron rims and fill the backseat with lead. Of course, the crystal ball says there will be a Challenger SRT8 with a six-speed manual in 2009 and that might even things up.
Or will it? Rumor is Pontiac will get a version of the Corvette's LS3 making about 400 hp for a GXP model. If that's the motor the V8 version of the Camaro carries, it should be able to pull a 0-60-mph run in the high 4-second range. And we expect the Camaro will be somewhat lighter than the G8 sedan's 4,100 pounds. Figure Chevy will claim a curb weight somewhere around 3,800 pounds. God help Dodge should Chevy decide to do a limited higher-performance SS model with the 505-hp LS7 from the Corvette Z06 or the 620-hp supercharged LS9 from the Corvette ZR1.
A 0-60-mph run in the high 4s and a quarter-mile in the low 13s would put the Camaro LS3 way ahead of the Mopars, but still behind the Shelby GT500 Mustang, which our radar gun clocked at 12.8 seconds in the quarter-mile. A Z06-powered Camaro, however, could take the crown.
That Other Stuff
Handling is a stickier issue to figure. It's worth noting that the G8 GT and Charger SRT8 are remarkably close in terms of lateral grip (0.85g G8 and 0.84g Charger) and slalom speeds (65.7 mph G8 and 66 mph Charger). We therefore expect that the Camaro SS and Challenger SRT8, which share the same basic suspensions with their sedan brethren, will be a near dead heat in terms of quantifiable handling traits.
And if the performance of the sedans is as predictive as we expect it to be, the Camaro will trounce the Challenger under braking. Despite big Brembo brakes, the Charger SRT8s we tested stopped from 60 mph in 120 feet and 135 feet. The Pontiac G8 halted from the same speed in a world-class 109 feet. For perspective, a Shelby GT500 does it in 120 feet and a Porsche 911 Carrera S stops in just 103 feet.
If you're having trouble accepting our conclusion that the 2010 Chevy Camaro wins a comparison test simply because we haven't "tested" them, then perhaps it would help if you imagine, as we are right now, that we're hammering the two cars at our double-top-secret location where all the roads are twisty, all the cops have wooden legs and a man and his muscle cars may lay rubber with total impunity. This would be right next to the beer springs.
Now, if you'll excuse us, we must be off to a victory party for the next U.S. president.
12-30-2008, 08:08 PM
#2
Race Director
I agree that the Camaro should be a hair faster, but lets be honest. I think it's pretty sad that a 2010 model is barely competing with a car Mopar will have had on the street for 5 years. 
Way to step up Chevy, by 2010 the Challenger will have over 500HP.
Way to step up Chevy, by 2010 the Challenger will have over 500HP.
12-30-2008, 08:37 PM
#3
Race Director
Camaros' cool ...I bet the car kicks @ss. Priced well too.
12-31-2008, 01:44 PM
#4
Le Mans Master
As much as I like the Challenger, if I had a choice I would go with the camaro. There is no doubt that it will outperform the charger, looks are close, but I tend to lean toward the Camaro. Problem is, the Camaro should already be on the road, the hype is over, and if the Challenger has over 500hp in 2010, its not even going to perform better, chevy really dropped the ball with this car, its been done, and in limbo forever now. The only way they can restore the camaro hype, is by putting the LS7 in it. I actually am one of the Z06 owners that is for this move, even if it did get an LS7 the 1000lb difference isnt going to pose much of a threat to the Z in any performance category, while it will put it on top as far a muscle cars.
12-31-2008, 02:45 PM
#5
Race Director
01-03-2009, 02:25 PM
#6
Le Mans Master
This comparo is beyond silly, they are magazine racing. If the people that wrote this really believe a G8 GT will run with an SRT-8 then they are clueless.
01-03-2009, 02:53 PM
#7
Race Director
Personal experience with 2 on the highway is that they lose. Even if they get the jump my SRT8 reels and walks away from them pretty easily.
The GXP will be hard to beat though.
01-03-2009, 09:14 PM
#8
Race Director
...from John Phillips of Car & Driver:
At VIR, even the Cobalt SS whipped the Challenger's butt. Nuff said.
I expected to love the Challenger but didn't. It's so wide, tall, and ponderous. Its door handles resist your fingers. Entering the back seat was a struggle. Its tape stripes might be from Pep Boys. Its windshield and backlight are gun slits, and its rear-three-quarter views nonexistent. The cockpit is tight and dark, lending the driver a sense of nursing something that is always threatening to get away.
Sports coupes should be nimble, light, and muscular, but this Dodge hits only one of those notes. With retro cars, be careful what you ask for.
Sports coupes should be nimble, light, and muscular, but this Dodge hits only one of those notes. With retro cars, be careful what you ask for.
Last edited by Dave68; 01-04-2009 at 03:10 AM.
01-04-2009, 01:24 PM
#10
Race Director
01-04-2009, 06:17 PM
#11
Race Director
The $22,000 Cobalt wups a $40,000 muscle car on the track and you say "So what?" If a stock Neon SRT-4 wupped a stock Ford GT on any road course, heads would roll at Ford. As Phillips said, "With retro cars, be careful what you ask for."
01-04-2009, 09:16 PM
#12
Race Director
That was my point.
Now, I won't argue that you haven't made a good point too. If I was in the market for a car in the ~$25k range that could hold it's own against a $40k car on the track, I guess I'd be all creamin' in my ricer lovin' pants for the Cobalt SS.
01-04-2009, 11:08 PM
#13
Le Mans Master
I love the Challenger but then again, I'm partial. I will say though that their target market...was right on target. They are looking for 40ish guys that grew up loving muscle cars. They got at least one of them. Just an awesome car.
Sadly, the Camaro lost its hype before it ever hit the streets. I don't think I'll be trading the challenger for it. I've had mine for nearly 4 months and I still haven't found anything I don't like about it other than the price tag.
Sadly, the Camaro lost its hype before it ever hit the streets. I don't think I'll be trading the challenger for it. I've had mine for nearly 4 months and I still haven't found anything I don't like about it other than the price tag.
01-04-2009, 11:12 PM
#14
Race Director
The basis of what the original poster stated was a comparison of the Challenger with the Camaro. I brought up one of Car & Driver's editors opinions that the Challenger is not a good track car. I then reminded everyone that the Cobalt is, according to the track drivers at C&D, a better track car. The inference here is that if Chevy can make the Cobalt wup the Challenger, they can surely make the Camaro do the same. Telling us that a guy you know can wup Vipers and Porsches only infers that either the 300 is highly modified or if not, the Viper and Porsche drivers are novices. I can guarantee you that if your buddy's 300 is stock and he tries to go up against John Heinricy of GM and a C4, C5, or C6, that 300 will lose big-time!
By the way, the other sleeper in the <$25,000 range is the Mazdaspeed 3. It's not quite as fast around the track as the Cobalt, but the Mazda can haul a lot more stuff in it.
By the way, the other sleeper in the <$25,000 range is the Mazdaspeed 3. It's not quite as fast around the track as the Cobalt, but the Mazda can haul a lot more stuff in it.
01-05-2009, 10:44 AM
#15
Race Director
01-05-2009, 12:03 PM
#16
Le Mans Master
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I love the Challenger but then again, I'm partial. I will say though that their target market...was right on target. They are looking for 40ish guys that grew up loving muscle cars. They got at least one of them. Just an awesome car.
Sadly, the Camaro lost its hype before it ever hit the streets. I don't think I'll be trading the challenger for it. I've had mine for nearly 4 months and I still haven't found anything I don't like about it other than the price tag.
Sadly, the Camaro lost its hype before it ever hit the streets. I don't think I'll be trading the challenger for it. I've had mine for nearly 4 months and I still haven't found anything I don't like about it other than the price tag.
01-05-2009, 01:47 PM
#17
Le Mans Master
The auto-equipped Challenger was only 3.3 second behind the Cobalt on the 4.2 mile course. It beat the Lotus Elise, the G37 sport coupe, the Subi WRX STi, and others. The now available 6-speed car would lap VIR quicker than the auto car.
01-05-2009, 03:33 PM
#18
Race Director
No no no, your point was seemingly that an expert driver in a 300 can beat novice drivers in Vipers and Porsches. My point is that if you take an expert Corvette driver and pit him against an expert 300 driver on a track, the Corvette guy will win EVERY time. The same is true with the Cobalt and Challenger. Take two equal drivers and have them race those two cars. The Cobalt will win every time.
01-05-2009, 03:36 PM
#19
Race Director
I love the Challenger but then again, I'm partial. I will say though that their target market...was right on target. They are looking for 40ish guys that grew up loving muscle cars. They got at least one of them. Just an awesome car.
Sadly, the Camaro lost its hype before it ever hit the streets. I don't think I'll be trading the challenger for it. I've had mine for nearly 4 months and I still haven't found anything I don't like about it other than the price tag.
Sadly, the Camaro lost its hype before it ever hit the streets. I don't think I'll be trading the challenger for it. I've had mine for nearly 4 months and I still haven't found anything I don't like about it other than the price tag.
What's amazing is that the new Challenger weighs more than a 1975 Monte Carlo. I had one and dang, that car was HUGE! Trim about 800 lbs from the Challenger and now you're talkin!
01-05-2009, 05:06 PM
#20
Race Director
No no no, your point was seemingly that an expert driver in a 300 can beat novice drivers in Vipers and Porsches. My point is that if you take an expert Corvette driver and pit him against an expert 300 driver on a track, the Corvette guy will win EVERY time. The same is true with the Cobalt and Challenger. Take two equal drivers and have them race those two cars. The Cobalt will win every time.
You argue like a woman.