robvuk

I speak from experience too. The facts and figures I gave are from searches and educated estimates. And I don't believe any Corvette or its engines have ever been in Nascar.

1stZ

I know that they're (Vettes) not in Nascar. I'm talking about race wins. I know that chevy has the winning most # out there. Although, a lot of those wins/#'s are Nascar. Now if you want to compare 911 & Vettes, then it will be a completely different result. Anyways, we could go on & on about this.... You have opinion & I have mine when it comes to this subject. We digress...

robvuk

I agreed that the Porsche is a fine car and has a rich history in European racing as does the Corvette in U.S. racing. It is only relatively recently that Chevy has pursued the European racing scenes. I just don't agree that you should be too exuberant about getting what you pay for or that the quality is that much better. Just as I would not claim that the Corvette is better in any of those terms. There is no doubt that you will pay a premium for an equivalent Porsche, so there should be a few items that are superior.

68sixspeed

not to be distracted by facts- but I found the GM durability test spec:

GM's standard durabilitytest consists of nearly 300 hours of operation at wide-open throttle,with the engine cycling back and forth between peak horsepower andtorque under maximum load. The LS7 also has to pass a thermal shock testthat flushes engine coolant ranging from about 250 degrees F to -40degrees F through the block while it's running. Even in the elite,low-volume Corvette Z06, the LS7 must be serviceable, warrantable, and tame enough to power your boss' secretary's daily driver.

Pretty impressive that they do that for every production motor design. At least something is done right there!

vetteship

Laboratory tests are not the same as real life testing.

mirage2991

^ I'll have to disagree
You can do some really harsh things in a controled environment that you would almost never encounter in real life...that 300h test is like running 98000 1/4 miles if my math is correct.

By the way, that video is showing the oiling system test, to see if there's any problems with it...maybe if GM did it they'd have found the oiling issue of our dry sumps...
I do agree that the onlything it may not simulate very well is the G-force that is present during turns which affect oil delivery. It seems to me that their rig is to test the oiling system/tank when oil is moving around alot in the pan/tank.

gonzalezfj

Actually, I was instructing with Bertil Roos on the South track. BUT... I sent my second in command, Steve Landstra, to their little showdown and NOBODY passed him in two days of running. Now, consider that there were two Porsche Cup cars there and neither of them quite had it to pass Steve in his stock Z06. Quite impressive for a cheap American sports car without the benefit of "German Engineering", don't you think?

Frank Gonzalez

C5 Frank

That video shows something that GM could learn.... rotate the engine around to simulate G forces and test the oiling system. With the known flaw in the '06-'08 LS7 oiling system.... that kinda test might have flagged that earlier.

gonzalezfj

No hate involved here, but I'm sick and tired of hearing the BS about "superior German engineering". American engineers don't have to take a back seat to anybody in the world today. If you gave the Corvette engineers the extra money Porsche gets for their cars, Vettes would be a lot more robust.

Face it, cars break. Cars driven hard on the track break more often. I don't care who the manufacturer is. People here seem to expect a Corvette that can be flogged on the track day and day out without the slightest hint of problems. Well, it's not going to happen. That's not the way things work in real life.

One other data point: a good friend has a 599 Ferrari. Beautiful beast, and arguably Italy's finest example of car building. He brought it to NJMP with 1,500 miles on the odometer and drove it on the track for 3 laps, after which the CEL came on and the car went into limp mode. Now, this is a $300,000 car that crapped out on its first outing. Is it hate to mention this or a simple statement of facts as they ocurred???

Frank Gonzalez

04_Z06_CE

One is High compression all motor design and the other one is better internals for more power(Rods,pistons) for the FI design..
Look at the 03/04 and 06+ GT500 , yes those cars might not be light but they can take a whipple with 21+ pounds of boost no problem on their stock block.. over 600 rwhp easy...

Jasil

^^^^^^^^^
I know that's my point!! I had a Cobra easy 150whp/L and a EVO easy 250whp/L all I want out of the LS7 is 100whp/L. We'll see how a extra 75whp feels and maybe that will be enough at 484whp now. I love the car and it's immensely better then the two mentioned why didn't ya throw in some forged pistons:>)

Bad Black Z

I purchased a 2007 turbo and when I arrived at home I noticed I had oil plastered all over the motor. Porsche claimed it was a faulty head gasket. It had less than 100 miles. I bet my motor was not the one tested in the video . I got rid of it and purchaed my Z. Best move I made in a while.

1stZ

You are absolutely right! Cars break! Even more so if you track them. As I mentioned before, I can't comment of F cars as I yet to owned one. In addition, I'm not a big fan of the F-cars unless I want to go & show them off on car gatherings. You can't argue the "looks & lines" of the F-cars. I could also state all of the vettes I see that go off on smokes on the track but it would just imply things & people would get upset about that here I'm sure which is I beleive what you did in your initial post on this subject. That said, if I was wrong about your first post about your implication, then I apologize and lets move on!


First of all, I am very impress with the Z. That's why I own one. That said, RR is mostly a driver's race. Unless we have exactly the same variable and the only thing different is the car, you can't really compare their specific performance on a specific day. My example is as follows:

I've been running a lot at the Spring Mtn. track here in Nevada. I've been consistently running 2 min & 31 on the 3.1 mile config. That is not fast but it is not slow either. A new member recently join (about a year ago) & he runs the new Viber STR. In the beginning, he had a hard time keeping up with me. But since I lost my motor (back in Nov. '08), I've not had a lot of track time as of late. In the meantime, this new member has been coming to the track a bunch. So much so that his last run he posted a 2 min & 27 on the same config. But a week later he & a friend of mine with a cup car (996) run against each other. Guess what? The viper got spank pretty good. The cup car did a 2 min & 23 & after a few laps, the cup car had about half of the track lead. My point is, you can't use examples of thing you see in the track and make assumption that a particular car is faster that the other. There are too many unknown variable in play. On my parituclar example, the cup car was only running 415hp rated vs. a "non-stock" viper str (BTW, FYI a stock v STR run 600hp). I know it's not stock cuz I talk to the Viper owner & he's told me all of the mods he put in his car. This example clearly shows that RR is a driver's race first and then the type of a car you run.

You made my point here for me when I mentioned earlier that "you get what you pay for"!

Finally, don't be so sure that the Vette has no influence from the German guys. If you look underneath your Z & compare them to the 928 P-car (which has been in production back in the mid 70's), it looks almost 100% identical. The basic fundamental of the front engine, torque tube & rear tranny is exactly the same as the 928. Im sure you're also familiar with the name "Zora Arkus-Duntov". Belgian descent who grew up & went to school in Germany whom then later became famous cuz of his involvement with the corvette. I'm with you with regards to the American not taking a back seat! I want them to continue in making the Vettes better.

FYI, I'm not German. I'm an american with asian descent. As already mentioned before, I'm a "car performance" fan. Not a brand fan!

stainless40cal

It can handle that with a decent tune easily

longdaddy

those of you claiming that corvettes are as track ready/reliable as p-cars out of the factory are deluding yourselves.

I have never seen a stock 15 year old corvette on the track. plenty of older porsches running around and doing fine with minimal maintainance.

I have never seen an owner of an unmodified 911 complain about brakes, oil or transmission overheating on the track. Every corvette owner tracking his car will experience all of those.

I have never heard of a porsche cracking the brake rotors after 4 track days.

The oiling issue with LS7 is an embarassment that will haunt GM and Corvette brand for years. While I am sure that all automakers will have some percentage of improperly assembled engines out of the factory and low mileage failures, I know of no other case where the owner looking to take his brand new, modern "performance" vehicle onto the roadcourse will be recommended to make oiling system upgrades to prevent damage with otherwise stock system.

Yeah, we have one of those "old" 911s in the garage that drips oil. Guess what - it has over 100k miles on the clock, many many track outings, all original parts except for shocks/springs/wheel bearings and runs like new.

How many of you have or had 15 year old corvette that you tracked for 3+ years and did not have to make a single reliability upgrade?

I have a corvette (C5) and it's a great car, but it is not a reliable track/race car out of the factory. 911 is and that's why it's in a different price league.

you can cite anecdotal evidence of porsches blowing up on a drive to the grocery store all day long, but it does not change the reality.

robvuk

I did a google search on Porsche blown engines and I stopped counting after 50 intermediate shaft failures.

CaramelNougat

... except that the LS7 oil failures seem to be the result of sustained lateral acceleration greater than 1G, which an articulated test rig such as portrayed in the video would not be able to simulate.

Laterals > 1G are pretty common with downforce aids and track tires, as many forum members can bear testimony to.

In the OP's video, I never saw the test rig rotate to full vertical on either axis during the part of the testing depicted in the video so it didn't even come close to subjecting the engine to 1G in any dimension. I've never driven on nurburgring myself but I am given to understand that it's a twisty course without any banks which means it probably won't invoke sustained lateral forces -- so this particular test could very well have not revealed the weakness in the LS7 dry sump.

I'm just sayin

805Z06

The Z06 is a better buy if your key goal is an affordable torque monster that is a ton of fun on the track.

BUT, the build quality on the Porsche is AMAZING and solid. Ya, they charge you for it. But at least it gives the competition some goals to reach.

mirage2991

welp, I'll put my 0.02$ in here: we have an 06 911 none turbo, 38k miles on it, and I just got my 08 Z. Since I've obviously driven both I can tell you a couple things first hand:
the 911, with 38k, drive like it is new (as good as the Z). No rattles, creaks or what not. Suspension is stiffer feeling than the Z but that could be due to the much lower profile of the 911's tires
325hp for the 911, 505 for the Z...same curb weight...obviously the Z is quite a bit faster.
911 vs 3LZ interior, both are great, and as refined, hard to pick a winner.
911 with the optional "race oriented buckets" is not comfy for me as I have wide shoulders. Since it's "her car" and she's 5'1, no problem for her.
Both cars are awesome to drive, although the 911 with the factory aero kit, bucket seats and optional rims/tires feel alot more like a race car than the Z.
The sales person, when we bought the 911 (bought it used) asked my honest opinion ( the guy was from Ireland, and loves corvettes) after driving the 911. My response: if it had another 150hp we'd be in business!. Thats when he showed me an 08 911 turbo for the small fee of 104k (used with 1200 miles) -we're still no in business I said lol-.
Best bang for the buck is the Z, hands down. I do find the 911 a little bit more refined, and it fits the lil' women just fine...I'm all about hp and the Z is "the" ride for me!

C5 Frank

IMO if one was going to test on a maching like that, why wouldnt you run the motor at a full sideways and up and down to check the drysump out.....