vette6799

Since the coefficients of drag for the ZR1 and the 458 seem pretty close as do the published weights, do you think the advantages accruing from a seven speed gear box might be the difference maker. From the drag equations, it is apparent that you need a lot more horsepower to realize higher speeds as the velocity increase, but perhaps the difference in gearing can adequately make up for the difference in HP at 1/4 mile speeds.

The other question is how much down force do the respective cars bring to the table at the speeds involved. Down force is commonly discussed when talking about Ferraris, but not so much when you talk about vettes, yet it has to be present as part of a well designed car, which the ZR1 most certainly is. Down force can have a huge impact upon top speeds, but again, I don't profess to have a clue how much down force these cars would have at 134 MPH and its impact upon HP requirements.

All of these toys are certainly remarkable vehicles.

racerns

I will say that shifting can have an affect on trap speed. Take a look some of the best drag racers of stock cars on this board, Jamie, Ranger, Kyle (blownlt1&c6z). They have the ability to get some very high trap speeds out of stock cars and they do it with very percise quick shifts. When I co-drove a ZR1 with Ranger at a track rental he was able to trap 2-3mph higher than me even if I turned in a better ET. So I could see how the 458's transmission might help with higher trap speeds too.

Now with that said, I will reserve my judgement until a few more test have been done. There is a bit of a history of Ferraris not turning in the same acceleration numbers as when they are under Ferrari's strict control like this test.

DoctorV8

Yes, but even the published 128 mph trap speeds for the 997TT PDK are on the high side for 500 hp/3500 lbs/AWD. I think the issue is that, with a 7 speed PDK, these cars are spending much more time near their peak torque output than they ever would with 6 wider spaced ratios.

Agreed....134 is hard to believe, as was C&D's 128 trap for the Porsche. But....again, super short gearing and sub 100 millisecond shifts allow the car to basically always be near peak torque in the RPM band, so time will tell if others can duplicate this feat.

With the inevitable proliferation of these types of drivelines....the broad torque curve of the LS9 becomes a bit less of an advantage in the numbers game, though NOTHING will ever replace the feel of strong "in gear" acceleration of a large FI motor.

CrystalRedMetal ZR-1

Personally I like these new transmissions from a performance standpoint. I'll never lose the love of a classic stick-shift, but the F1 style setups are growing on me. The incoming 7 speeds definitely seem to be the hot item in the upcoming supercars.

I drove a PDK 911 turbo, and I have to say I really did like the way it felt when going through the gears. (fastest shifts I've felt before). I didn't go too wild with it, but from 20 mph, to 120, it was extra nice. I still love the ZR1 for the sound, and raw thickness of power in virtually any RPM. I didn't get that with the Porsche. What I gained in powerband, I gave up in interior quality. As you can see, the trade-off didn't bother me that much.. haha

So, with the 458 Italia, a 9,000 rpm redline and that small displacement v8, it seems like it would be necessary to have that aggressive 7 speed & gearing to have an edge over the supercar world. With a 6 speed, I'd think it would be too long for it to be in the "sweet-spot" for enough % of the gearing to be competitive. Aside from that, I like the sound of almost a 9,000 rpm anything...

- Bryan

FIRSTC6Z06

On your first issue of questioning Horsepower. I think your on the money! I believe these cars are under rated as far as HP goes.

Your comment about picking one up in a few years is a common comment that applies to Corvettes but definitely not Ferrari's. In a few years you may be able to get one for MSRP. I've been blackmailed too many times by Ferrari dealers who say that if you want a new car, you have to buy something you don't want from them. Then you can lose money selling it back to them. Then they will put you on a long waiting list for the car you wanted in the first place. Look at e-bay prices. They hold up quite well. I've been trying to buy a new Ferrari for years now. Of course this subject ties in to the manual trans (F1) issues. Many of these customers (not all) aren't really car enthusiasts. Many just have a bunch of money (or credit) and want the status symbol to take for a Sunday drive. In my area two people have killed themselves in Ferraris and one burned up in a new 458 in the past 18 months.

DoctorV8

"underrating" horsepower is unlikely in the modern era. Since automakers started using the SAE J1349 several years ago, HP numbers are much more reproducible and accurate.

http://www.sae.org/certifiedpower/

The more likely culprit here is either a "ringer" test car, and/or suspect timing equipment/conditions. Automobile's numbers are but one point on the upcoming data curve....time will tell if others reproduce the 134 trap.

The 458 fire issue has been well documented, and is apparently the subject of a new recall...not related to driver error...

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=296152

Guibo

What trap speed do you expect for the 997TT PDK? Are you comparing it to cars with similar outputs/wt and with similar transmissions? If not then, you can't say with any certainty that power output is the defining difference.
A Panamera Turbo traps 118-119 mph, which is close to what Gen 2 and early Gen 3 Vipers trapped at. And it weighs 1000 lbs more.
Being near peak torque is one issue, but so is the shift itself: full throttle, no lift, no loss of boost.

Check this acceleration chart of the GT-R, 997TT manual, and the ZR1:


The green lines indicate the increments where the manual-transmission cars must re-cover the speed they lost due to the shifts. During this period, they have gained zero net mph, but they are still rolling toward the 1/4 mile mark. The GT-R, on the other hand, loses no speed (though its acceleration decreases slightly in this test); it continues to accelerate toward the quarter mile even during the shifts.
Other tests have shown no dip in acceleration for the GT-R, as we see there. In some tests of DCT-equipped cars in their sportiest transmission settings, there can actually be a spike in acceleration as the car, on full throttle, is briefly jolted by the rotational inertia of the engine at peak power. You can see it in this chart of the newer PDK-equipped Boxster S (blue) vs Z4 (red), with the old Cayman S imposed (in yellow).


The Cayman has stronger in-gear acceleration, but it's clearly losing time and speed on each shift to the PDK Boxster.

See also this test of manual vs DCT-equipped Mitsubishi Evos:
"It takes an average of about 0.37 seconds to make an upshift happen [in the manual car], and you'll lose about 0.9 mph in the process. Meanwhile, the paddle-shift MR is pulling away..."

As for downforce, here are the downforce figures obtained by German mag Sport Auto in the same windtunnel, along with in-gear performance data:

Guibo

Italian Magazine Quattroruote was pretty close. 132.2 mph in 0-400m. I do think Automobile's result will be at the high end though, and cool testing conditions can easily account for that.

DoctorV8

When you consider that the average stock 6 speed 997TT would trap in the 118-120 mph range with marginally less power than the 997.2, an 8-10 mph trap speed bump is indicative of far more than just a small power increase. It's all in the transmission. Launch control, more gears, and faster shifts. R&T even tested a 2010 997TT with the new DI motor, but a 6 speed, and only trapped 121, which is about what I was expecting.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/var/ezfl...37f15cd095.pdf

Guibo

Agreed. Yep, that's the test I used for my first chart. Factor in ~1 mph lost for each shift to the 1/4 mile for the manual Turbo and you're looking at 3 seconds for a PDK-equipped car. 124 mph is close enough to what this customer got with his own private car (125.9):
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...tt-vboxed.html

The Italian magazine Auto recorded 127.4 in 0-400m with their PDK equipped Turbo. Another Italian mag, Automobilismo, recorded 126.6. Evo, from Britain, recorded 125.5 on a wet surface. These minor differences are likely due more to variables in conditions rather than "ringer" engines.

Gering

Those are nice cars. I would like to ride in one to see first hand! Congrats on your collection!

FIRSTC6Z06

I'm aware of the recall.


I wish someone would "Well Document" how Ferrari dealers are blackmailing customers by making them buy what they don't want to get something they do want. It's pathetic.

My point was that many Ferraris are purchased by people for status only with no idea how to handle the car at speed. Of the two that died in my area recently in Ferrari's, one was an 18 yr. old kid who's parents gave him the car. He had absolutely no experience driving high performance cars of any type.

Two weeks ago I was at the local post office and parked next to a new black F599. It didn't have license plates yet. The pretty blonde who was driving the car put her baby in a front car seat before pulling away like she was driving a caddy. Not a bad car for hauling the kid around to run errands.

FIRSTC6Z06

Another factor here for the magazine tests is the fact that the PDK has been even further improved recently in the newest cars and for the record, there are 3 modes for the transmission. In the "Sport Plus"(racing) mode, the trans mapping is altered for max use of HP. and TQ when shifting. Magazines I have seen do not specify which mode the car has been in, so we could see very different results from different tests. In standard drive mode the car gets better mileage and doesn't hold shifts. In the middle "sport" mode the mapping changes for the enthusiast driver and it is a noticeable difference. Revs immediately jump but the car still has reserves untapped until you get to "Sport PLUS".

Porsche has now come out with the Turbo"S" that is all the time 530HP, however, if the test (whether a Turbo or Turbo "S") is in California where it is difficult to find 93 octane fuel, the car may be producing less than max power (on 91 that is available) which becomes another variable aside from conditions like air temp.

I would like to see a test that confirms all conditions, fuel, air temp and trans. settings for the PDK in a Turbo "S" with 530 HP all the time. It could be even quicker at full max. octane and sport plus PDK mode than prev. tests.....or not?

vette6799

My attempt at buying an F430 was not a lot of fun. I plunked 10K down at Ferrari of Washington (DC) as a deposit for an F430 in December of '04 and was number 28 on the waiting list to buy a car at MSRP. I was told the wait was 3-4 years at most. At the time, the salesmen told me that there were ways to get the list to move faster. When I asked specifically what he meant, he told me that should I buy a used F car from their dealership, they considered "loyalty" as a means to get things to happen sooner. Indeed, I received a substantial number of calls, always for a used Ferrari at ridiculous prices.

Four years into the program, I had gone from 28 to 3 on the list. Then I was told that the 430 Stradales didn't count against my number and that I would have at least another year to wait. At this time, the 458's were starting to reach fruition as was the collapse of the financial world as we knew it. I started having concerns at that time about the dealer being financially secure, so I called and asked if my deposit of 10K was in an escrow account. I was told that it was not, indeed, it was in their operating account. I became concerned and asked that my deposit be returned, and the dealer did so promptly.

In hindsight, I probably should have stayed on the list and would have been eligible for a 458 at MSRP, although at this point, I don't care enough to plunk down the coin to make the purchase. Moreover, who knows how many more years it would have taken to finally get the car.

Mr turbo rotary

I agree, it doesn't add up.

02HREBlue

I have a GTR and have to admit the PDK is a monster and extremely efficient. Too bad it is just so damn expensive. Like the 911 but still an overrefined ill designed car. Thats why they don't make the cayman more powerful or they would not sell an overpriced 911. With the F1 boxes these cars just use the powerbands so efficiently and they will never miss a shift. Very repeatable performance.

PeterK

Engine over the rear tires + better transmission + better engine management.

tomsws6

So what your saying is if the Z had this type trans and GM did it right then A Z could possible be trapping 137ish?

Guibo

Yes, it's possible.

Mr turbo rotary

I opened up that link to 6 speed and now have a nasty redirect virus...