Modified GTR vs. Modified ZR1 who would win?
10-09-2010, 04:57 PM
#21
Burning Brakes
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Who said I'm focused on # of cylinders? The Number of pistons mean nothing. It's the stroke volume and bore dimension that is key.Should I continue?
10-09-2010, 05:01 PM
#22
Burning Brakes
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Are you really comparing an engine (LS1) that was designed in the early 1990's to one 15-20yrs later (370Z)??
All that has zero to do with the the number of cams and more with the heads. You do realize they make 4v per cylinder OHC engines that make as much power. Key to power is head air flow, It doesn't matter how it's done, but the engine that can achieve the largest volume of air the fastest (as well as utilize this air) will make the most power.
OHC have direct advantages to DOHC, weight and size, and packaging are among the most important. I love how many think OHC engines are "new technology" and OHV are "dinosaurs" when SOHC/DOHC engine have been around since the late teen's/early 1920's.
Each has its place, to think other wise shows ignorance.
All that has zero to do with the the number of cams and more with the heads. You do realize they make 4v per cylinder OHC engines that make as much power. Key to power is head air flow, It doesn't matter how it's done, but the engine that can achieve the largest volume of air the fastest (as well as utilize this air) will make the most power.
OHC have direct advantages to DOHC, weight and size, and packaging are among the most important. I love how many think OHC engines are "new technology" and OHV are "dinosaurs" when SOHC/DOHC engine have been around since the late teen's/early 1920's.
Each has its place, to think other wise shows ignorance.
Mopar V8:
http://www.mulsannescorner.com/moparv8.html
Honda V8
http://www.mulsannescorner.com/mugenv8.html
10-11-2010, 01:01 AM
#24
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That wouldn't be even either way, because the ZR1 is still $20k more than the GT-R. A $110k car with 10 grand in it vs an $85K car with $10k in it.
10-11-2010, 03:50 PM
#25
Race Director
This.
Both cars are exceptional in performance. There's no denying that. However I would make the debate as realistic by comparing the cars, mod for mod. Both cars have forced induction, so it is pretty comparable that they will both respond well to a simple intake and exhaust. Couple that, with suspension mods and see which one comes out better in a battery of tests like slalom, 1/4 mile, 0-60 etc. I think that's as fair as that gets.
-Alex
Both cars are exceptional in performance. There's no denying that. However I would make the debate as realistic by comparing the cars, mod for mod. Both cars have forced induction, so it is pretty comparable that they will both respond well to a simple intake and exhaust. Couple that, with suspension mods and see which one comes out better in a battery of tests like slalom, 1/4 mile, 0-60 etc. I think that's as fair as that gets.
-Alex
no contest when modds com in to play
10-11-2010, 07:06 PM
#27
Le Mans Master
10-11-2010, 07:24 PM
#28
Le Mans Master
I like all fast cars and am not brand loyal, and think running small engines and getting big power is a great feat, but fact is fact.
The smaller engines also have to work much harder, to make big power, stressing all the internals of the motor.
10-11-2010, 08:56 PM
#30
Burning Brakes
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Actually it does, I have to run 16lbs of boost on my 306 fox to make 620 rwhp, and that is with a D1SC procharger(which is much more effeciant the the P1SC so its actually like running 20+)a boosted V-10 would need about 6lbs to make that power, at 16ps1 a V-10 Viper would be over 1000hp.
I like all fast cars and am not brand loyal, and think running small engines and getting big power is a great feat, but fact is fact.
The smaller engines also have to work much harder, to make big power, stressing all the internals of the motor.
I like all fast cars and am not brand loyal, and think running small engines and getting big power is a great feat, but fact is fact.
The smaller engines also have to work much harder, to make big power, stressing all the internals of the motor.
10-11-2010, 08:59 PM
#31
Burning Brakes
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This.
Both cars are exceptional in performance. There's no denying that. However I would make the debate as realistic by comparing the cars, mod for mod. Both cars have forced induction, so it is pretty comparable that they will both respond well to a simple intake and exhaust. Couple that, with suspension mods and see which one comes out better in a battery of tests like slalom, 1/4 mile, 0-60 etc. I think that's as fair as that gets.
-Alex
Both cars are exceptional in performance. There's no denying that. However I would make the debate as realistic by comparing the cars, mod for mod. Both cars have forced induction, so it is pretty comparable that they will both respond well to a simple intake and exhaust. Couple that, with suspension mods and see which one comes out better in a battery of tests like slalom, 1/4 mile, 0-60 etc. I think that's as fair as that gets.
-Alex
10-11-2010, 09:19 PM
#32
Melting Slicks
You guys are kidding right?
Uhm.. there are quite a few supercharged STOCK C5's in the low 10's, even high 9's, a BONE STOCK C5 Z06 in the high 9's with a TTI X kit and an auto conversion.
I would hope with all of the technology the GTR has that it can go low 9's.. besides thats on RACE gas.
Limit the cars to PUMP gas and the advantage of the extra cubes is obvious.
This will be even more interesting when the C7 DPI engine comes out
Uhm.. there are quite a few supercharged STOCK C5's in the low 10's, even high 9's, a BONE STOCK C5 Z06 in the high 9's with a TTI X kit and an auto conversion.
I would hope with all of the technology the GTR has that it can go low 9's.. besides thats on RACE gas.
Limit the cars to PUMP gas and the advantage of the extra cubes is obvious.
This will be even more interesting when the C7 DPI engine comes out
10-11-2010, 09:32 PM
#33
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You mean direct injection? Its not DPI. Its just DI. We already have port injection. Also, if you haven't noticed, no DI engine as of late has been able to more than double its horsepower from aftermarket stuff. Hopefully the magnitude of the corvette aftermarket can change that, though.
10-11-2010, 09:40 PM
#34
Melting Slicks
This statement is self-contradictory. Any if you mean his engine wasn't forged the I bet he was using race gas, or he is crazy.
You mean direct injection? Its not DPI. Its just DI. We already have port injection. Also, if you haven't noticed, no DI engine as of late has been able to more than double its horsepower from aftermarket stuff. Hopefully the magnitude of the corvette aftermarket can change that, though.
You mean direct injection? Its not DPI. Its just DI. We already have port injection. Also, if you haven't noticed, no DI engine as of late has been able to more than double its horsepower from aftermarket stuff. Hopefully the magnitude of the corvette aftermarket can change that, though.
Dr. Phil achieved a 9 second 1/4 YEARS ago with a forged 346 and an auto on 94 Sunoco (thats how long ago it was) with stock Ti exhaust.
DI/DPI... I will be the first person to say I am not an expert. However, I have been racing for perhaps a decade or two and know what I have seen. I have "heard" that some very interesting things are in the works
If you're going to argue hp/liter, you should really join a Honda website, they'd love you there!
10-11-2010, 10:01 PM
#35
Le Mans Master
No it doesn't! The number on cylinders will not determine the amount of power you make! So you're telling me that a 5.0 liter 4cyl will make less power than a 3.0 V8? Secondly, head design plays an important role in determining the efficiency a motor. Take for instance an M3 motor(2002-08). They make over 500rwhp with 8psi of boost. The head design of an M3 flows more cfm than an ls1 or C6 vette stock(I've tested). Third as I expressed earlier, DOHC motors have a significant advantage of pushrod setups, because you are able to control intake and exhaust timing! This is why I expressed earlier that you can not find a motor with equal displacement making the same or more power than a DOHC setup.
You are also being very optimistic of M3's running 500 rwhp on 8lbs of boost. Regardless if you are buying a bmw to go fast, you bought the wrong car.
Do you think anybody in a stock LS7 is going to be scared to line up with a 500rwhp bmw
There is a shop near my house that strickly does, bmw, and other imports,from what I have personally seen it takes more than that.
They wanted to give me free dyno pulls with my Viper
no thanks.You are forgetting the loss of torque, which plays a huge role in racing, that small cubes are lacking.
Just for example, a friend a me just built our foxes, at the same time, he went with the 408, I went with the 306, our cars have identical setups, the only thing different are the cam's and the size of the AFR heads, on the same PSI he makes well over 100lbs of torque and Hp than I do, and that is all over the torque band.
A dohc motor can compensate for that but only so much.
There is no replacement for displacement, isnt just a saying, its the truth.
The only people who argue are the guys who a strictly into imports.
If you are talking heads and flow, I have AFR on my fox, which are the best in the bussiness, the LS series head are very simular.
If you say you have "tested" at what lift did the M3 heads flow more? that plays a major role.
Last edited by NytmereZ; 10-11-2010 at 10:21 PM.
10-11-2010, 10:20 PM
#36
Burning Brakes
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You have your points w dohc motors, yes they are more efficiant, regardless you arent going to convince me nor anybody else smaller cubes are better in any application for racing.
You are also being very optimistic of M3's running 500 rwhp on 8lbs of boost. Regardless if you are buying a bmw to go fast, you bought the wrong car.
There is a shop near my house that strickly does, bmw, and other imports, it take more than that.
They wanted to give me free dyno pulls with my Viper no thanks.
If you are talking heads and flow, I have AFR on my fox, which are the best in the bussiness, the LS series head are very simular.
You are also being very optimistic of M3's running 500 rwhp on 8lbs of boost. Regardless if you are buying a bmw to go fast, you bought the wrong car.
There is a shop near my house that strickly does, bmw, and other imports, it take more than that.
They wanted to give me free dyno pulls with my Viper
no thanks.If you are talking heads and flow, I have AFR on my fox, which are the best in the bussiness, the LS series head are very simular.
Lets take an:
LT5
LS1
LT1
LT4
for an example. All have 5.7 liters. All based on the similar platform except LT5(DOHC) and all weigh nearly the same. First of all, the 1993 lt1 produced 300hp@5000rpm and 340lb-ft@3600rpm. It wasn't until 96 that the lt4 produced 330hp. The lt5 in the 93 zr1 produced 405hp@5900rpm and 400lb-ft@4000rpm. Now that we're comparing apples to apples, there is a 105hp and 60lb-ft difference in output, let alone a narrower powerband, all from the same displacement.
As a matter of fact, now the difference in output is a staggering 35% and in torque 17.6%. If that is not a significant figure, I don't know what is. Ironically, these two engines were put in the same chassis side by side and both corvettes, so i don't see how any vette fan could be biased towards one or the other either.
Fact of matter is, it wasn't until 10 years after the first ZR1 that chevrolet matched the output of the powerplant with the ls6.
10-11-2010, 10:23 PM
#37
Burning Brakes
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Torque does not play a role in roll racing. That is what a standard is used for so you can manipulate your torque curve. Furthermore, torque does not accelerate you car.
10-11-2010, 11:02 PM
#38
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Actually it does, I have to run 16lbs of boost on my 306 fox to make 620 rwhp, and that is with a D1SC procharger(which is much more effeciant the the P1SC so its actually like running 20+)a boosted V-10 would need about 6lbs to make that power, at 16ps1 a V-10 Viper would be over 1000hp.
I like all fast cars and am not brand loyal, and think running small engines and getting big power is a great feat, but fact is fact.
The smaller engines also have to work much harder, to make big power, stressing all the internals of the motor.
I like all fast cars and am not brand loyal, and think running small engines and getting big power is a great feat, but fact is fact.
The smaller engines also have to work much harder, to make big power, stressing all the internals of the motor.
10-11-2010, 11:33 PM
#39
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How do you know? An 800whp GT-R with aggressive gearing a good powerband (obviously) and more power and torque can't take a Viper with less power? The P800 packages on the GT-R are doing low 10s on pump gas and much easier to drive than a Viper. Its a street race as well and we all know anything can happen on the street.
10-12-2010, 01:32 AM
#40
Team Owner
There are a lot of smaller motors that are stronger than bigger motors as far as boost is concerned. Look at the 2JZ-GTE, The Porche motors and the Terminator Cobra motors. Smaller displacement than the LS-series motors but can make more power on the stock internals safely.