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Everyone is speculating on a mid engine. Will it be a Corvette, will it be a Cadillac? GM has already built a mid engine Cadillac. Everyone is forgetting this....GM has already dabbled in this area with a concept build. So take from that what you may. A blast from the past for those who don't remember.
The Cadillac Cien is a 2-door rear mid-engined, rear-wheel-drive high performance concept car created by Cadillac, designed by Simon ***,[1] and unveiled at the 2002 Detroit Auto Show to celebrate Cadillac's 100th anniversary ("cien" is Spanish for one hundred, which compares the Buick Centieme). It was featured in the 2005 film The Island and the 2014 film Transformers: Age Of Extinction. It was also a car in Midnight Club 3 (a 2005 game for Xbox and PS2), and the game Gran Turismo 4 (a PS2 game released in 2004), Gran Turismo (PSP).
The Cadillac Cien had a longitudinally mounted 60-degree, 7.5-liter V12 which produced 750 hp (559 kW) and 650 lbft (881 Nm) of torque. This experimental engine featured direct injection and displacement on demand, which allowed the engine to run on only eight or fewer cylinders under light load. The Cien was designed at General Motors' Advanced Design Studio in England and built as a fully working road-going vehicle with the help of the UK-based engineering and motorsport company Prodrive. The Cien's monocoque chassis and body are made of aerogel composite[2] and its design was inspired by the F-22 Raptor.[3]
Last edited by Movie Muscle; 01-07-2017 at 02:09 PM.
The Cadillac brand is not even near the "prestige" level of the German cars(Mercedes/BMW/Audi, etc.) and the Japanese cars(Lexus and Acura).
That's why Cadillac sells half the number of cars that Mercedes sells I believe that Cadillac is in fifth place in sales of Luxury cars. You have to have a certain level of 'prestige' in order to command the higher prices people are willing to pay.
Cadillac tried to increase their "prestige" level when they offered the XLR at a price double the C6. Problem was that everyone knew the XLR was based on a Chevrolet and there is no "prestige" in owning a Chevrolet.
If GM were to release a Cadillac mid engine sports car that was based on a Corvette mid engine sports car, at the same time, then Cadillac would not see that boost in "prestige" that they desperately are looking for. There is no prestige in owning a Chevrolet that has different fenders/fascia's and a Cadillac emblem stuck on the car. Look at the non success of the Cadillac Cimarron that was a rebadged Chevrolet with a much higher MSRP. People were not fooled by Cadillac into believing that a rebadged Chevrolet magically had more "prestige" and could compete with the German cars in the market place.
I'm sure in the future GM will have a mid engine vette in as well.
For a debut model, if we are talking a big ticket halo car to run with the Ford GT, NSX, R8 and above, this might be the smart move to start. Learn off this platform and then build another mid engine variation for the vette. One that will allow a price point mid engine that is around the Stingray territory....Then have the higher end model debut a few years from there. Just as GM did with the z06 and ZR1's. This concept car would have been hurt by the crunch as far as making it to production at that time. It does however show that GM was thinking about going that direction with the Cadillac previously.
Last edited by Movie Muscle; 01-07-2017 at 12:45 PM.
I believe the Cien was the prototype for what ultimately became the XLR and XLR-V. Both of which were built at BG using very similar body design to the Cien but powered by outdated GM front-end, RWD engines.
I have to think GM will take their mid-engine hybrid to market first as a Caddy.
IF there is a market, if there is crossover from the Vette Faithfull, THEN bring over the tech and stick a Corvette badge on it.
The last thing they want to do is pi$$-off their Sportscar customers.
The Cadillac brand is not even near the "prestige" level of the German cars(Mercedes/BMW/Audi, etc.) and the Japanese cars(Lexus and Acura).
That's why Cadillac sells half the number of cars that Mercedes sells I believe that Cadillac is in fifth place in sales of Luxury cars. You have to have a certain level of 'prestige' in order to command the higher prices people are willing to pay.
Cadillac tried to increase their "prestige" level when they offered the XLR at a price double the C6. Problem was that everyone knew the XLR was based on a Chevrolet and there is no "prestige" in owning a Chevrolet.
Joe I agree with what you are saying. I can tell you this about the XLR I bought a 2004 XLR one owner with 15,000 miles on it. I had it two years and put 15,000 on it. I loved the look of the car and how it drove, and also all of the questions I would get from people about it. Now comes the bad. The car never went more than 2,000 miles from new without being back to the dealer. Electrical problems, 5 body control modules, power top problems. I had enough and traded it on a 2007 Corvette convertible. I also owned a 1987 Allante back in 1989 and it was just as bad. I ended up trading it in on a new 1991 Corvette.
Cadillac has a bad track record when it comes to sports cars. Two times they tried it and failed both times with over priced and bad quality!!!
The Cadillac brand is not even near the "prestige" level of the German cars(Mercedes/BMW/Audi, etc.) and the Japanese cars(Lexus and Acura).
That's why Cadillac sells half the number of cars that Mercedes sells I believe that Cadillac is in fifth place in sales of Luxury cars. You have to have a certain level of 'prestige' in order to command the higher prices people are willing to pay.
Cadillac tried to increase their "prestige" level when they offered the XLR at a price double the C6. Problem was that everyone knew the XLR was based on a Chevrolet and there is no "prestige" in owning a Chevrolet.
If GM were to release a Cadillac mid engine sports car that was based on a Corvette mid engine sports car, at the same time, then Cadillac would not see that boost in "prestige" that they desperately are looking for. There is no prestige in owning a Chevrolet that has different fenders/fascia's and a Cadillac emblem stuck on the car. Look at the non success of the Cadillac Cimarron that was a rebadged Chevrolet with a much higher MSRP. People were not fooled by Cadillac into believing that a rebadged Chevrolet magically had more "prestige" and could compete with the German cars in the market place.
Prestige is all relative! While some might call Cadillac prestigious, some might call it ghetto! You might say that for some other brands as well. In Germany they use Mercedes E Class as Taxi's so not much prestige in that as well. Acura and specially Ford have no "prestige" but they are producing high-end semi-full on exotics respectively.
The Corvette has much more "prestige" than a Cadillac. Many don't even know it is a Chevrolet and GM is aware of that. You don't see a Chevrolet badge on it, you rarely see it advertised alongside other Chevrolet's. It is GM's Flagship car and its most expensive vehicle. If GM makes it a Cadillac it will be DOA. Cadillac has nothing on a Corvette with the exception of some superior dealerships and better warranty. It is an established World Class car with a rich heritage, certain cachet and more affluent buyers than the average Cadillac buyer with many having multi vehicles. Cadillac will struggle to sell 500 units of a ultra high-end exotic while the Corvette will sellout 500 units at time of its announcement.
And that XLR failed to sell because it came out at a time that Cadillac hadn't found its stride yet at that time and it had a weird looking design that doesn't stand the test of time. Cadillac is up and coming and making great strides now but they are still not there. They should concentrate on their SUV lineup and building a Flagship sedan that can compete with the S Class for now.
If they build it and do it right, looks, handling, power, and quality no matter how they badge it they will sell.
Exactly. Look what Ford managed with their GT. The new model GT will be a huge success as well. If they can do it, so can GM. Ford brought the GT to market, and now bring an even pricier version to the block. Buyers are lined up to boot.
^^^ Yep. 250 annually for four years with a base price tag of $450,000. very restricted pool of buyers for the Ford GT thus those that managed to get on the list are paying $450,000+ as they know that there will be very few pimps on Commercial street driving them.
That's not what Chevrolet is trying to accomplish with the Corvette.
GM has stated that they are only interested is selling the Corvette in high volume as that's where the money is.
Last edited by Steve Garrett; 01-07-2017 at 03:34 PM.
Prestige is all relative! While some might call Cadillac prestigious, some might call it ghetto! You might say that for some other brands as well. In Germany they use Mercedes E Class as Taxi's so not much prestige in that as well. Acura and specially Ford have no "prestige" but they are producing high-end semi-full on exotics respectively.
The Corvette has much more "prestige" than a Cadillac. Many don't even know it is a Chevrolet and GM is aware of that. You don't see a Chevrolet badge on it, you rarely see it advertised alongside other Chevrolet's. It is GM's Flagship car and its most expensive vehicle. If GM makes it a Cadillac it will be DOA. Cadillac has nothing on a Corvette with the exception of some superior dealerships and better warranty. It is an established World Class car with a rich heritage, certain cachet and more affluent buyers than the average Cadillac buyer with many having multi vehicles. Cadillac will struggle to sell 500 units of a ultra high-end exotic while the Corvette will sellout 500 units at time of its announcement.
And that XLR failed to sell because it came out at a time that Cadillac hadn't found its stride yet at that time and it had a weird looking design that doesn't stand the test of time. Cadillac is up and coming and making great strides now but they are still not there. They should concentrate on their SUV lineup and building a Flagship sedan that can compete with the S Class for now.
I suggest that you visit your local CHEVROLET dealer and see all the Corvettes siting next to their sedans/SUVs/trucks.
Why do you think that Cadillac is back in racing in a car that isn't even a production model, in street trim? They are trying to get "prestige" that the other "luxury" brands have with their racing programs.
Cadillac tried the same stunt back around 2000 and got their *** handed to them, and without a word dropped out of their racing program in the middle of the night. Why do you think Cadillac tried to go racing back in 2000? Could it be because they were looking for "prestige" to help sell their crappy everyday production cars?
Yep. 250 annually for four years with a base price tag of $450,000. very restricted pool of buyers for the Ford GT thus those that managed to get on the list are paying $450,000+ as they know that there will be very few pimps on Commercial street driving them.
That's not what Chevrolet is trying to accomplish with the Corvette.
GM has stated that they are only interested is selling the Corvette in high volume as that's where the money is.
Originally Posted by Movie Muscle
I'm sure in the future GM will have a mid engine vette in as well.
For a debut model, if we are talking a big ticket halo car to run with the Ford GT, NSX, R8 and above, this might be the smart move to start. Learn off this platform and then build another mid engine variation for the vette. One that will allow a price point mid engine that is around the Stingray territory....Then have the higher end model debut a few years from there. Just as GM did with the z06 and ZR1's. This concept car would have been hurt by the crunch as far as making it to production at that time. It does however show that GM was thinking about going that direction with the Cadillac previously.
I was talking debut of a mid engine platform. Not exclusivity of the mid engine platform exclusively to Cadillac.
I was talking debut of a mid engine platform. Not exclusivity of the mid engine platform exclusively to Cadillac.
So was I. But, I also was taking about GM not sharing the mid engine Cadillac platform with the Corvette as that will kill the "prestige" factor for the Cadillac. GM isn't going to introduce a mid engine Cadillac sports car that will sell in very low volumes expecting that they will be making billions of dollars off those few Cadillac sports cars they expect to sell. They are hoping the mid engine sports car will raise the "prestige" factor of the Cadillac brand(all models) and they they will make billions of dollars because people decided to not buy a German luxury car and instead buy a Cadillac, raising sales to a point equal to Mercedes, while not having to heavily discount their Cadillac's in order to sell them.
Now down the road, when the Cadillac sports car is old news, then they will probably share the platform with the Corvette as a separate model but keep the Corvette bread and butter high volume front engine platform that will maintain their required high volumes to keep to Corvette profitable.
Didn't the same people at the same plant build the XLR on the same assembly line as the Corvette?
Same plant, but different people and a whole different assembly line. The XLR/XLR-Vs were actually largely assembled by hand with the chassis moving on hand-propelled "carts" on rollers rather than the mechanized line used for Corvettes.
I think the midengine car will be a Caddy too. It makes more sense to sell it as a halo Caddy than Chevy. Chevy has the Vette as the halo, Caddy would have this. Plus it avoids the talk of "That's too much money for a Chevy!" stuff.
01-07-2017, 11:59 AM
Why the mid-engine will likely be a Cadillac....
