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Well highly factual. The ZR1 will likely beat many hyper cars around most tracks. A million miles away from what any Mustang can muster. Sorry but true. Wait and watch.
The GT350R competed well at the Grand Sport level. Pulling the rear seats is one thing, but, yanking the radio and AC is too much.
More power and the Vette still was faster!
No ediff. or transaxle....Not too Probable!
Interesting though is the Mustangs wheelbase Not being much more than the Vette. The Camaro's a monster! Amazing it got through! Ford's trying more of the same, it seems!
Its handling limits are approachable and usable. Perhaps you’ve seen videos of Mustangs leaving car shows with disastrous results. Chalk it up to lack of skill. If you know what you’re doing, there’s simply no treachery to this chassis (or that of any new Mustang); it does what you expect of it safely, predictably, and obediently.
“There are arguments for both, but the GT350 is by far the most complete car. I drove the Grand Sport and the GT350 back to back twice to come to that conclusion. The Ford is more desirable, more practical, and cheaper.”
The GT350 is an awesome car! Ford knocked it out of the park with this. It'll be interesting to see what they do with the GT500. I was looking at the GS, GT350, M3, and Porsche Cayman S and ended up with the GT350.
Originally Posted by FAUEE
I'm going to disagree with the "exciting time" sentiment. It's a complete **** time to be into cars unless you'e well heeled. Want something fun? A decent Mustang GT is 35 grand. Camaro is expensive and you can' see out it. Used cars are at historically high prices, and all the exciting stuff comes at huge prices because they pack on crap that adds cost like apple and android crap, electronically adjustable everything, and electronically controls mechanical components. You can't' buy something cheap, fun, quick, and reliable, and that's part of why the car enthusiast is dying.
It's a great time to be an old man with a solid bank account that needs pills to make his junk work and needs a fast car to make his ego work. If you want to buy a car to appear like a car guy, now is a great time. If you are actually into cars and don't have a trust fund or money in the bank, it's a terrible time for cars.
It's a great time to be a car guy. I'm not a trust fund kid but I work for what I want and prioritize.
Originally Posted by FAUEE
They don't. It's even worse for you.ger guys, just starting out of school or something like that. I have been very fortunate in my life to get a good job out of school and graduated without much debt. I have a ton of friends that didn't and they're stunned that I can afford a used C6. They look at new cars and think 25 grand is a lot to spend. If you look at new cars, 25 grand doesn't buy much. These are degreed engineers working for a fortune 500 company that have been here for a few years too.
These guys would buy a Mustang or something like that, but they'v been priced out. Mustangs amd Camaro used to be great performance bargains. You got a big v8, rwd, a stick, amd could go rip burnouts without a ton of expense, but now they have all sorts of extra crap that has driven the price way up, chasing a consumer who won' switch from an m3 to a mustang anyways, because they need to appear rich.
Used cars that are good are going for nearly what they did new. Sure there' run into the ground beat to hell C5's and C6s for cheap, but that' not for everyone.
The auto industry is shooting itself in the foot trying to make cars too fancy and trying to move everything upmarket. Someone would make a killing by offering a basic sports car again. No eLSDs, a live rear axle, no fancy turbos or direct injection, a basic hard plastic interior, and undercut everyone else by 10 grand or more. There is no reason that a mustang gt or Camaro Ss should start at more than 23k.
The auto industry is doomed if they can't reduce costs of vehicles. Interest rates are going up, and they can only mask the issue for so long with fleet sales like they did in 2017.
I priced out a 2018 wrangler, a loaded up sahara, it worked out to well over 50 grand. That's' insane to me.
If your engineer friends can't afford a used C6, they picked the wrong field or are huge spenders on other things. I have engineer friends who are doing better than me.
The market does have a cheap sports car. There is the Toyota 86/Subaru BRZ, the Miata, Fiat 125, Civic Si/R. The Japanese market owns the cheap, fun to drive segment. I've heard the new Ecoboost Mustang's are pretty fun as well. They make 300hp.
Originally Posted by Wulverine
How dare we speak of a mustang and corvette in the same breath.
The lloyd mat "it's just a mustang" waxer corvette brand loyalist might never recover.
Guys buy them for the track, and I saw a beautiful custom painted 427 ZO6 at a Cars and Coffee last weekend.
I've read they are the best performance buy out there. There are mods galore for them too!
The C5Z is the best bang-for-buck performance car out there right now. Great track weapon and daily-drivable.
The GT350 is an awesome car! Ford knocked it out of the park with this. It'll be interesting to see what they do with the GT500. I was looking at the GS, GT350, M3, and Porsche Cayman S and ended up with the GT350.
It's a great time to be a car guy. I'm not a trust fund kid but I work for what I want and prioritize.
If your engineer friends can't afford a used C6, they picked the wrong field or are huge spenders on other things. I have engineer friends who are doing better than me.
The market does have a cheap sports car. There is the Toyota 86/Subaru BRZ, the Miata, Fiat 125, Civic Si/R. The Japanese market owns the cheap, fun to drive segment. I've heard the new Ecoboost Mustang's are pretty fun as well. They make 300hp.
You just hit the problem right on the head. The manufacturers have the same attitude as you. "The V8 is too expensove? Well then they can buy the 4 banger, it has decent hp". People don't work like that. They buy used if you do that. They don' say "well the v6 model has as much hp as the old v8 so that' fine I will settle". They just don' buy your car.
FCA is the only company that has a hope to survive the next few years. They didn' bet the farm on expensive technology and market disruptions
GM amd Ford, along with many import brands are screwed in the next few years as credit gets more expensive and fleet sales can't mask their issues.
Speaking of the new zr1, the Ford GT just smashed the record for VIR. Billy Johnson drove an easy lap of 2.38.62. Nearly 3 second faster than gm’s best lap in the z06.
Speaking of the new zr1, the Ford GT just smashed the record for VIR. Billy Johnson drove an easy lap of 2.38.62. Nearly 3 second faster than gm’s best lap in the z06.
Not sure what that has to do with anything in the OP, but...
You just hit the problem right on the head. The manufacturers have the same attitude as you. "The V8 is too expensove? Well then they can buy the 4 banger, it has decent hp". People don't work like that. They buy used if you do that. They don' say "well the v6 model has as much hp as the old v8 so that' fine I will settle". They just don' buy your car.
FCA is the only company that has a hope to survive the next few years. They didn' bet the farm on expensive technology and market disruptions
GM amd Ford, along with many import brands are screwed in the next few years as credit gets more expensive and fleet sales can't mask their issues.
I'm sorry but you're dead wrong........ I see 2-3 (4/6 cylinder model) Mustang and Camaro's for every single 8 cylinder model I see. Another point you fail to see is that if there is a demand in the used market keeping trade values good enough, the people who can afford it will buy a new/later high end model. Cars have been getting more expensive for years, people keep buying them. Just because the economics don't work or make sense to you doesn't mean that it's not happening. Hell..... there are more new/super late model cars on the road now than I can ever remember seeing.
I'm sorry but you're dead wrong........ I see 2-3 (4/6 cylinder model) Mustang and Camaro's for every single 8 cylinder model I see. Another point you fail to see is that if there is a demand in the used market keeping trade values good enough, the people who can afford it will buy a new/later high end model. Cars have been getting more expensive for years, people keep buying them. Just because the economics don't work or make sense to you doesn't mean that it's not happening. Hell..... there are more new/super late model cars on the road now than I can ever remember seeing.
The data doesn't support your experience. The average car on the road is at a historically old age. And while they may sell more base spec pony cars than v8 ones, that doesn't imply that people wanted them over a v8. They have always sold more base engine pony cars, and probably always will. Cars like the Firebird and Mustang have always had the vibe of being for a teenage girl, spec'd with a base engine and a convertible top.
Sales numbers don't lie when fleet sales are removed. Despite a growing population, new car sales are in trouble. Rising prices amd lowered fun are two main reasons. You look at something like a C7, they've taken all the analog feel out of the cars. It now has a limited slip that is computer contoured because people can't drive. There are now several levels of computer assistance to make you feel like you're actually drivong the car, but you're just playing in its digital sandbox. New cars are becoming expensive versions of Forza, and don't deliver the engagement that many buyers want. Meanwhile, prices for 90s and early 00s sports cars that do deliver this engagement are skyrocketing.
The seas ahead for the auto industry are very stormy indeed, amd everyone is too busy with their own agenda to realize it.
Speaking of the new zr1, the Ford GT just smashed the record for VIR. Billy Johnson drove an easy lap of 2.38.62. Nearly 3 second faster than gm’s best lap in the z06.
The data doesn't support your experience. The average car on the road is at a historically old age. And while they may sell more base spec pony cars than v8 ones, that doesn't imply that people wanted them over a v8. They have always sold more base engine pony cars, and probably always will. Cars like the Firebird and Mustang have always had the vibe of being for a teenage girl, spec'd with a base engine and a convertible top.
Sales numbers don't lie when fleet sales are removed. Despite a growing population, new car sales are in trouble. Rising prices amd lowered fun are two main reasons. You look at something like a C7, they've taken all the analog feel out of the cars. It now has a limited slip that is computer contoured because people can't drive. There are now several levels of computer assistance to make you feel like you're actually drivong the car, but you're just playing in its digital sandbox. New cars are becoming expensive versions of Forza, and don't deliver the engagement that many buyers want. Meanwhile, prices for 90s and early 00s sports cars that do deliver this engagement are skyrocketing.
The seas ahead for the auto industry are very stormy indeed, amd everyone is too busy with their own agenda to realize it.
This is one of the most idiotic posts I've ever seen. Sports cars make up a small percentage of the market and are not impacting overall sales like you think in your BS statements. The plain fact is that millennials are not buying cars and outright not driving as much as prior generations. Look at some actual studies that point to the actual root causes. You may be an "engineer" and should focus on that instead of the auto industry trends.
The plain fact is that millennials are not buying cars and outright not driving as much as prior generations.
There are multiple studies on this phenomenon and it is staggering to see young people who have no desire to drive.
32 years ago, I couldn't wait to get my license so that I could start driving. Now, kids are simply not interested and no one can point to exactly why. Each study comes up with different conclusions.
As to arguing over ZR1 and GT500, why? Both make their owners happy.
There are multiple studies on this phenomenon and it is staggering to see young people who have no desire to drive.
32 years ago, I couldn't wait to get my license so that I could start driving. Now, kids are simply not interested and no one can point to exactly why. Each study comes up with different conclusions.
As to arguing over ZR1 and GT500, why? Both make their owners happy.
Millenials aren't driving as much largely due to economic reasons. While it' true that some millenials are just lazy piles of crap that want to sit on the couch and have the world delivered to them, that' how lots of baby boomers and gen x and all the others are too.
There' more data out there than you can hope to look at that shows that millenials are financially underperforming, and likely will never recover from the "great recession". A news story today said that millenials are earning 34% less than expected. With jobs being outsourced or given to h1b visa employees for pennies on the dollar it' s not surprising.
The auto industry needs to focus more on accessible cars. If they don' it' going to be their undoing.
I'm sorry but you're dead wrong........ I see 2-3 (4/6 cylinder model) Mustang and Camaro's for every single 8 cylinder model I see. Another point you fail to see is that if there is a demand in the used market keeping trade values good enough, the people who can afford it will buy a new/later high end model. Cars have been getting more expensive for years, people keep buying them. Just because the economics don't work or make sense to you doesn't mean that it's not happening. Hell..... there are more new/super late model cars on the road now than I can ever remember seeing.
That's because people can't afford the one with the V8, or are just after the look,of a car and don't care about performance.
Another point is that discussing peak HP (like the V6 producing the HP of the older V8) completely discounts that this isn't representative of how driving the car feels. The V6 and V4 will lack in torque, only producing a decent amount at their peak, while the V8 will take less abuse to have fun with.
There are multiple studies on this phenomenon and it is staggering to see young people who have no desire to drive.
32 years ago, I couldn't wait to get my license so that I could start driving. Now, kids are simply not interested and no one can point to exactly why. Each study comes up with different conclusions.
I think the answer is two-fold. Cars are expensive and they know it, and they're broke from coming of age after the 2008 debacle.
Secondly their social interactions have shifted to weight of online/cell presence/interactions so being somewhere in person has become less of a need. Lots of them also favor living and working in dense urban areas where owning a car is largely optional.
I think the answer is two-fold. Cars are expensive and they know it, and they're broke from coming of age after the 2008 debacle.
Secondly their social interactions have shifted to weight of online/cell presence/interactions so being somewhere in person has become less of a need. Lots of them also favor living and working in dense urban areas where owning a car is largely optional.
Young people always crowd into the cities when young, then move out to the suburbs or smaller town to raise families. The difference is now, less of them are doing that because of how they've been reamed out financially. So they stay in the city with rents going crazy to keep their jobs and MAYBE meet someone, but they never make that next step because economically they can't. Between not being able to afford to, they also tend to not have the same sort of job security previous generations had, and relocation may be needed at any point.
I have said it many times, what the auto industry doesn' get is they sell a "want", not a "need". People want cars, they need to pay rent and student loans. The auto industry can't just say "our prices are in line with inflation" because they don't operate in the same way. Consumers buy cars from discretionary income, which is dwindling. You can't charge more, or even the same, prices when there's less discretionary money out there.
01-21-2018, 04:54 AM
Right!
Ford's trying more of the same, it seems!
