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Cadillac to become GM's EV brand, here comes the Electric "C8"...

 
Old 01-14-2019, 12:53 AM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by JerriVette View Post
Itll be interesting if dieselgate riden vw can compete with gm in ev’ s

should make for an interesting battlefield especially with fords massive vw announcement next week
If GM can't do any better than they are currently doing with the Bolt, it will be a walk in the park for VW.
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Old 01-14-2019, 06:24 AM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by JoesC5 View Post
If GM can't do any better than they are currently doing with the Bolt, it will be a walk in the park for VW.
having driven a bolt and then a tesla the bolt is a very impressive product.

having to look at the bolt and you are correct GM will be left in the dust.

Gm must create an electric vehicle lineup that creates the desire for ownership when looking at it and driving it.

tesla nailed that formula ...




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Old 01-14-2019, 03:49 PM
  #63  
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@Michael A once again, taking corner cases as reasons why EVs won't work while ignoring the practicality for the other 99.5% of cases is lazy. I'm sitting in a location right now where the temp reached -13F on Saturday, and yet somehow we've got people commuting in full EVs. Haven't heard them complain too much about heat. As far as track use, that's the realm of what, 10000 cars a year worldwide?

The average person is not driving 200 miles a day with any regularity, and battery tech is already past that. Yes, extreme range and charging is still an issue, but by the time I've driven four hours I'm guessing most folks are ready to stretch the legs a bit. As far as infrastructure, theres plenty of EV charging points near me. As adaptation increases, so will they increase. At one point, we had water stations for steam engines and feed areas for horses. Those have disappeared and given way to gas station, which will give way to charging/battery swap stations.

And I dont hold up Tesla as representative of a true OEM, just like I don't hold up Uber as representative of autonomous tech. Both are tech companies trying to make cars, not established car companies who do things according to a vetted process. That article doesn't talk about EV issues as an industry, rather issues specific to Tesla.
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Old 01-14-2019, 10:20 PM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by jefnvk View Post
@Michael A once again, taking corner cases as reasons why EVs won't work while ignoring the practicality for the other 99.5% of cases is lazy. I'm sitting in a location right now where the temp reached -13F on Saturday, and yet somehow we've got people commuting in full EVs. Haven't heard them complain too much about heat. As far as track use, that's the realm of what, 10000 cars a year worldwide?

The average person is not driving 200 miles a day with any regularity, and battery tech is already past that. Yes, extreme range and charging is still an issue, but by the time I've driven four hours I'm guessing most folks are ready to stretch the legs a bit. As far as infrastructure, theres plenty of EV charging points near me. As adaptation increases, so will they increase. At one point, we had water stations for steam engines and feed areas for horses. Those have disappeared and given way to gas station, which will give way to charging/battery swap stations.

And I dont hold up Tesla as representative of a true OEM, just like I don't hold up Uber as representative of autonomous tech. Both are tech companies trying to make cars, not established car companies who do things according to a vetted process. That article doesn't talk about EV issues as an industry, rather issues specific to Tesla.
Not addressing the talking points I created is being lazy. People can talk all day long about how great an electric car is, and, how people don't need the range. Yes, for commuting, and an around town vehicle, they can do the job. However, when it comes to a well rounded vehicle that you can take on trips, go camping in, go to the mountains for the day, etc., it is another matter. Only EV nuts will put up with sitting at a charging station. They are only practical as short range cars, and that's it. The vast majority of people do not want to pay tens of thousands of dollars for a short range car. Even with huge subsidies, they are not selling. People can talk up EVs until they are blue in the face, but they are still not selling.

Last edited by Michael A; 01-14-2019 at 10:24 PM.
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Old 01-15-2019, 02:52 PM
  #65  
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So are you going to cite sources for your fears? It is kind of hard to refute your general fears without the data you should have to show they are an issue to begin with.

Originally Posted by Michael A View Post
1) Starting the battery electric car when it is -20F out.
Weve got people commuting in that right now. They seem to get to work. How much of the US regularly sees -20F again? In any case, frosty Norway is seeing a boom in EVs, if they work there I'm not convinced they can't work in New York: https://electrek.co/2018/10/01/elect...-norway-tesla/

2) Staying warm without the battery going dead.
See #1

3) Charging in five minutes or less.
An issue that still needs addressed, but is relatively offset by the fact that few people are actually driving over the current range of batteries on a daily basis to begin with

4) How to recycle batteries.
https://medium.com/tradr/teslas-appr...n-5af99b62aa0e

5) How to charge battery electric cars at night without fossil fuels.
Nuclear, solar, wind, although this is not an EV issue, rather a whole way of needing to relook at clean energy

6) How to upgrade the electric grid.
Again, something that needs looked at far outside of just EVs, but somethign the folks in charge are already looking at: https://www.wired.com/story/electric...electric-grid/

7) How to keep range from excessively dropping when driving at 75 mph.
Already happens with ICE engines.

8) How to keep range from excessively dropping when using the air conditioning.
I can't find any source telling me how much the ragne actualyl drops when using AC, so I'm going to assume it isn't a huge issue.

9) Charging a battery at -20 F.
Plug it in?

10) How to explain to your family that you have to stop at the charging station for an hour on the way to grandma's house. And then do it again on the way home.
How far away does grandma live? Considering that battery ranges are now in excess of 200 miles, and in some cases much more,I'm still not seeing this to be a huge issue to most folks.

11) How to explain to your family that they have to bundle up, because you can 't use the cabin heater, and make it to your destination without stopping to charge.
I don't blast the heat in my ICE engine anyhow, so it doesn't really affect me, but glad to see were getting into the hyperbole.

12) How to build an electric C8 that doesn't weigh 5000 pounds.
13) How to build an electric C8 where the battery isn't dead in 15 minutes of track use.
14) How to build an electric C8 where the battery doesn't overheat in 15 minutes of track use.
15) How to build an electric C8 where the battery isn't dead before you get to the top of a mountain road while driving in a spirited manner.
Not a significant concern to any manufacturer or most car buyers. Chevy could kill the Corvette outright tomorrow and it wouldn't affect them in any way. Considering we already have Formula E though, and many of the supercars are already to the hybrid level, I have little doubt that electric performance vehicles will still exist.

I should probably point out that Pikes Peak is already being dominated by EVs, WRT point #15.

16) How to build an electric car that isn't ready for the junkyard after eight to ten years or 100,000 miles, because the cost to replace the failed battery is more than the value of the car after the battery is replaced.
See #4, where after 160k Tesla batteries are seeing about a 9% reduction in range and one went 324k before the battery went.

17) How to tow trailers when there is so little energy in the battery.
Electric semis and trucks are already in development.

It's really easy to say "Ban internal combustion engines. Make all cars electric.", but it much harder to make that a practical reality and build cars people actually want to buy in other than specialty car volumes. There is a lot of work to do. If the government forces these cars on the public before the are fully developed, it's going to look like Cuba around here.
I never said ban ICE engines, and I have never disputed there are corner cases that will still take some time to sort out. That said, for the overwhelming majority of people in the overwhelming majority of use cases, the tech is already where it needs to be. It is only going to get better from here.
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Old 01-17-2019, 03:57 PM
  #66  
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As far as the trucks/towing, upcoming F150 EV: https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/17/busin...150/index.html
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Old 01-21-2019, 05:01 PM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by jefnvk View Post
So are you going to cite sources for your fears? It is kind of hard to refute your general fears without the data you should have to show they are an issue to begin with.


Weve got people commuting in that right now. They seem to get to work. How much of the US regularly sees -20F again? In any case, frosty Norway is seeing a boom in EVs, if they work there I'm not convinced they can't work in New York: https://electrek.co/2018/10/01/elect...-norway-tesla/


See #1


An issue that still needs addressed, but is relatively offset by the fact that few people are actually driving over the current range of batteries on a daily basis to begin with


https://medium.com/tradr/teslas-appr...n-5af99b62aa0e


Nuclear, solar, wind, although this is not an EV issue, rather a whole way of needing to relook at clean energy


Again, something that needs looked at far outside of just EVs, but somethign the folks in charge are already looking at: https://www.wired.com/story/electric...electric-grid/


Already happens with ICE engines.


I can't find any source telling me how much the ragne actualyl drops when using AC, so I'm going to assume it isn't a huge issue.


Plug it in?


How far away does grandma live? Considering that battery ranges are now in excess of 200 miles, and in some cases much more,I'm still not seeing this to be a huge issue to most folks.


I don't blast the heat in my ICE engine anyhow, so it doesn't really affect me, but glad to see were getting into the hyperbole.


Not a significant concern to any manufacturer or most car buyers. Chevy could kill the Corvette outright tomorrow and it wouldn't affect them in any way. Considering we already have Formula E though, and many of the supercars are already to the hybrid level, I have little doubt that electric performance vehicles will still exist.

I should probably point out that Pikes Peak is already being dominated by EVs, WRT point #15.


See #4, where after 160k Tesla batteries are seeing about a 9% reduction in range and one went 324k before the battery went.


Electric semis and trucks are already in development.


I never said ban ICE engines, and I have never disputed there are corner cases that will still take some time to sort out. That said, for the overwhelming majority of people in the overwhelming majority of use cases, the tech is already where it needs to be. It is only going to get better from here.
Fact is that the overwhelming number of people (99%) purchased a ICE powered vehicle and not a battery powered vehicle last year in the USA. I wonder why? Maybe because an EV isn't what the overwhelming majority of people see in a car that meets the overwhelming majority of their needs, and not just as an expensive commuter car to put-put around in the city.

Even those that just put-put around town decided that they would rather spend their hard earned money on a much cheaper ICE powered vehicle that could do more than just put-put around town.


Last edited by JoesC5; 01-21-2019 at 05:03 PM.
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Old 01-24-2019, 05:54 PM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by jefnvk View Post
So are you going to cite sources for your fears? It is kind of hard to refute your general fears without the data you should have to show they are an issue to begin with.


Weve got people commuting in that right now. They seem to get to work. How much of the US regularly sees -20F again? In any case, frosty Norway is seeing a boom in EVs, if they work there I'm not convinced they can't work in New York: https://electrek.co/2018/10/01/elect...-norway-tesla/

Commuting = short distance travel.

See #1


An issue that still needs addressed, but is relatively offset by the fact that few people are actually driving over the current range of batteries on a daily basis to begin with

Fast charging can only go so fast. 100 kWH battery charging at 800 volts (Porsche) in 5 minutes > 750 amps because it slows during the last 20%. Probably more like 1000 amps. What size cable is that going to require?

https://medium.com/tradr/teslas-appr...n-5af99b62aa0e

Money loser. There is no current way to recycle batteries at anything less than a huge sunk cost.

Nuclear, solar, wind, although this is not an EV issue, rather a whole way of needing to relook at clean energy

Nuclear = dead in the U.S., Solar - how does that work when charging at night? Wind - dies down at night.
Again, something that needs looked at far outside of just EVs, but somethign the folks in charge are already looking at: https://www.wired.com/story/electric...electric-grid/

Grid will need an overhaul.

Already happens with ICE engines.

ICE cars have twice the range of electrics, so any speed increase is minor to the total range. If you run low, you can fill up in five minutes.

I can't find any source telling me how much the ragne actualyl drops when using AC, so I'm going to assume it isn't a huge issue.

"The AAA Automotive Research Center in Southern California found that the average range of an electric car dropped 57% in very cold weather – at 20 degrees Fahrenheit – and by 33% in extreme heat, a temperature of 95 degrees."

Plug it in?


How far away does grandma live? Considering that battery ranges are now in excess of 200 miles, and in some cases much more,I'm still not seeing this to be a huge issue to most folks.

People don't want a commuter car to travel.

I don't blast the heat in my ICE engine anyhow, so it doesn't really affect me, but glad to see were getting into the hyperbole.

Not everyone wants to freeze in their electric car just so they can say they drive an electric car. If the car is not comfortable, it's DOA.

Not a significant concern to any manufacturer or most car buyers. Chevy could kill the Corvette outright tomorrow and it wouldn't affect them in any way. Considering we already have Formula E though, and many of the supercars are already to the hybrid level, I have little doubt that electric performance vehicles will still exist.

A Formula E car can't even finish a race.

I should probably point out that Pikes Peak is already being dominated by EVs, WRT point #15.

Good to know for anyone who wants to trailer their car to the base of Pikes Peak.

See #4, where after 160k Tesla batteries are seeing about a 9% reduction in range and one went 324k before the battery went.

Lithium ion batteries degrade not only with charging cycles but also with time.

Electric semis and trucks are already in development.

Only good for short haul if that. The batteries are dead within hours.

I never said ban ICE engines, and I have never disputed there are corner cases that will still take some time to sort out. That said, for the overwhelming majority of people in the overwhelming majority of use cases, the tech is already where it needs to be. It is only going to get better from here.
Electrics can replace some ICE cars for wealthy people who have extra cars laying around for trips.

Fuel cell electric vehicles could replace ICE cars for commuting and trips.
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Old 01-24-2019, 07:03 PM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by Michael A View Post
Pushing EVs on the Cadillac division should finish it off. After 20 years, EVs are still only 1% of the market. People don't like EVs. Governments do.
Yup

No one wants an electric sportscar.
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Old 01-30-2019, 12:18 AM
  #70  
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talking about Norway and EV's...

Population about the same as South Carolina or Colorado and size about the same as New Mexico.

Norway registered 12,303 new Leaf's in 2018 and 8,614 new Tesla's in 2018.. BEV's are 31.2% of the overall market share.

I wonder how many new ICE vehicles in South Carolina, or Colorado or New Mexico were registered in 2018? I bet it was a hell of a lot more than 20,917(combined Leaf and Tesla sales).

The percentage of new BEV registrations in Norway are quite high(31.2%) but then Norway doesn't see many new car sales each year, so their numbers don't mean much when comparing against sales in the USA.

But then you also have to consider that Norway sells most of it's dirty crude oil to other countries, so the government can use the money from those sales transactions to heavily subsidize the costs of their imported EV's.

Unlike the US, Norway gets 95% of it's electricity from hydro, so it's plentiful and dirt cheap and it only has to be distributed over 125,021 square miles, not 3,794,083 square miles like in the USA. You can't say that about the US's electrical generation.

Last edited by JoesC5; 01-30-2019 at 07:02 AM.
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Old 02-12-2019, 11:37 AM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by JoesC5 View Post
Fact is that the overwhelming number of people (99%) purchased a ICE powered vehicle and not a battery powered vehicle last year in the USA. I wonder why? Maybe because an EV isn't what the overwhelming majority of people see in a car that meets the overwhelming majority of their needs, and not just as an expensive commuter car to put-put around in the city.

Even those that just put-put around town decided that they would rather spend their hard earned money on a much cheaper ICE powered vehicle that could do more than just put-put around town.
Most of us fortunately are not living in the past. Change will occur whether some of us like it or not. You can deny the obvious transitions that are underway currently or cross your arms against your chest and remain solidly in the past. Electric cars are here to stay. There are more of them on the road with each passing day and this undeniable trend will not reverse. Many of us here are at a point where an ICE vehicle will suffice for the driving years we have left. I do find it comical that the EV bashers are the very same posters who can't accept the fact that the FE Corvette will soon be out of production as the ME C8 takes center stage.
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