seventysixvette

Man, what a great forum!!!

My '76 had 7 (yes,seven) coats of paint/primer on it. It had cracks and paint splinters clear down to the 'glass. I've had no choice but to sand down to bare 'glass and go from there.

Do I need to use jellcoat, or can I start with a good primer filler? (or primer/sealer) What I do have sanded so far is really slick with no glass 'hairs' showing at all.

Georgia1974

I am in the same situation as you. I am planning to use DP Epoxy primer first then filler and Primer surfacer over that to block. But I will be interested to see the other suggestions you get.

roger55

Epoxy primer is the way to go. Spray gelcoat is a royal PIA. And, yes epoxy makes a great base for filler
However, PPG doesn't make the DP primer anymore. It's DPLF now and although I've never used it, I've heard many say they don't like it near as well as the old DP.

The epoxy I've used and is raved about by the pros on the the Hotrodders.com forum is made by Southern Polyurethanes.
http://www.southernpolyurethanes.com

Their clear is supposed to be superb also and they have great prices.

And, SPI is based in Georgia. If you can, see if you can meet Barry Kines who owns the company. I hear he loves to give advice to his customers.

Roger

seventysixvette

Thanks guys, I appreciate the replies! I've done all the other work on the car myself, I've decided I'm a gonna paint it my self too. I might regret it later, but I'm not very experienced with body work and painting.....I figure there's only one way to learn.
Thanks again!
John

Jim Dillon

John, I have been painting since 1964 and am an advocate for guys that want to do it yourself. Painting is not mystical, it is more like a discipline where you have to follow procedures without taking shortcuts. A good paint job requires a great deal of attention to detail. I have been using PPG products mainly since the 1960s although paint projects often specified that I use all of the other brands so I am somewhat familiar with other brands as well. PPG for a number of reasons has been the brand that I like so I may be able to at least give my two cents in regards to their products more than the others. That is not to say the others are not as good, believe me everyone has their favorites.

DP epoxy primer is great stuff. The newer version is DPLF (as in lead free) and it is still great stuff in my opinion. In the eighties the only hardener available was DP 401 which required and still requires a 30 minute induction period (mix and stir and let it sit 30 minutes before application). They came out with DP 402 which you can mix and paint mostly for body shop applications (time is money). I do not use DP 402, I just don't feel I am that big of a rush and I just have not used it enough to endorse it.

Some guys really like gelcoat when you strip to the glass. I believe there are instances when it is necessary such as when you get down to fibers in the glass being exposed. Your body sounds pretty good and I would go with DPLF 90 (black) and DP 401. I would wait for the next day and then use a high build primer and here you will get a number of opinions. Slicksand is pretty good stuff but if you want more of a primer surfacer and want to stick with PPG you can use K-36 or K-38 or K-200 although I have been using the Omni line of high build primer surfacers and have had good success at a lot less money. You will get a bunch of opinions as to the degree of shrinkage with each. Find a good supplier and ask to talk to the rep-they can be quite helpful. Ask for all of the product literature you can get. They will print it off their computers or tell you how to get it online. It can be quite informative. By the way, the reason I like black (DPLF90) is that it gives you a guide so that when you sand thru your surfacer and break to the black you know it is time to stop sanding in that area and hit it again.

Last thing to keep in mind is that many of these products today contain isocyanides and other things that are not good to breathe. I would never paint these materials without a fresh-air system. A bit pricey but so is another set of lungs.

With good paint, decent equipment and some knowledge you can put out a great paint job. There are a bunch of knowlegeable and helpful guys on this forum. Good luck-Jim

blue6t7

Jim gave some great advice. The only thing I would add is that when you put your epoxy on, allow about 4 hours between your first and second coats. I like to let this set a couple of days before putting the 2K on. Oh, and with epoxy, make sure to maintain a surface temp of at least 65* for the first 8-12 hours or be prepared to restrip and redo.

Hope this helps

Dan

murvette

Epoxy primer as a base coat on smc is one very popular and sucessful start to your paint system. The big problem is that a lot of primer products of all types say you can use them on fiberglass,smc,etc. so it gets very hard to choose a system. The best advise I can give you is that you follow the product data sheet to the letter and you should have good results. Things like dry times ,temps, sand grit,cure,reducers,mixing etc. are listed on the data sheets. This helps alot there is no guess work and will reduce your stress. Also listen to the old timers on the products and brands they use and you cant go to wrong .. have fun on your project , murray

crazywelder

I've been painting since 1969 (old timer as murray put it) and todays products blow away yesterdays technology, it's the best time ever for the hobby. I really like DPLF and use it on every project as a base over glass and steel bodies after the major bodywork but prior to filler and sanding primer. There are less expensive epoxies on the market, such as Transtar at half the price, but the other products I've tried are thinner and seem to have a softer finish making them less durable in my eyes. Epoxies will bury loose strands of glass and have very good corrosion resistance on steel. I've had top coats chip from road debris and parking lot door dings, but the DPLF has always stayed intact. Just make sure you follow the recoat time limits. I also use DPLF as a sealer an hour prior to the top coats.

roger55

Not to start any kind of disagreement with you here as I never used DPLF.
But, from the Hotrodders.com forum, several have had concerns about it when they saw that lacquer thinner on a rag would wipe it off even after a lengthy cure time.

crazywelder

I'm not sure why that would be a concern? Lacquer thinner will disolve many types of dried/cured paint. Lacquer paints bond partially by disolving the paint they are being applied over, as opposed to enamel based paints that sit on top of the surface and rely on sand scratches for bite and chemical adhesion.

roger55

I don't know either but here is some interesting reading on the subject:

http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/epox...highlight=dplf

Btw, BarryK on that forum is the owner of Southern Polyurethanes Inc.

Jim Dillon

Don't be too surprised if no matter what is written on this forum there will be some disagreement in the paint "community". It is as common as the air we breathe. I would tend to agree with ahoover as I am not sure as to why there is so much concern as to whether thinner can react with paint. I worked on a project with an anti-graffiti coating for the New York City Transit Authority back in the eighties and the paint we used was impervious to a thinner soaked rag but there was a good reason. If graffiti was resistant to the known graffit removers (strong detergents) then at least thinner could be used as a last resort to remove the sprayed on graffiti. There were a number of manufacturers that told me their paint met our spec and would be resistant to thinner but I found that to not be the truth. Probably 99.9% of all paints throughout history would not meet the test of a thinner soaked rag left on overnight and that does not make the paints inferior. I have run hundreds of adhesion tests in industry on DP40/401 without even one failure. I have run zero tests on DPLF but I have used the LF formula successfully both as an adhesive base and as a sealer and have found it to be very satisfactory. I have done numerous two tone paint schemes requiring tape over fresh paint (which was directly over DPLF as a sealer) and I have never pulled any paint.

Not all paints have equal adhesion qualities and it is difficult in my opinion to come up with a really good adhesive primer. I have used and tested DP on steel, fiberglass, stainless and aluminum and it has never given me any reason to question it as an adhesive primer. Of course if your criteria is that your paint must be impervious to thinner for whatever reason then you may have to either question your use of DPLF or contact PPG's laboratory with your concerns. DPLF can be recoated anytime within 7 days without scuffing so I am asssuming there is not full cure within 7 days and I would doubt there is full cure before 30 days without force drying. I could be wrong as it would not be the first time but many paints do not cure as quickly as some of the literature claim they do. If you are hesitant about using it then trust your instincts as painting is difficult and expensive one time let alone twice-Jim

draakarmaul

DP epoxy- there is no reason to use gelcoat on a press molded piece of fiberglass.........(except in RARE cases)

roger55

Jim,

You have a good way of putting things and seem to certainly have the background to back up what you are saying.

I won't speak negatively on the DPLF anymore.
However, I am sold on the epoxy that SPI produces. I have used it and liked it (but it's the only epoxy I have ever used so I can't be objective in any comparisons.) It's pretty unanimous on the Hotrodders.com forum that the SPI epoxy is great stuff and reasonably priced.
That's the forum where I have been hanging out for quite a while and it is hard for me not to bring info from over there here.

Roger

Jim Dillon

Roger, there are many good paints out there and I am sure the SPI is great product. People speak highly of it and the most important test it passed is yours. There is room on the paint shelves for more than one good product. Sometime I will give it a try. The more knowledge that is brought to this forum (from whatever source) the fewer mistakes we will encounter-Hopefully-Jim

crazywelder

Not beat a dead horse here, but I contacted PPG yesterday regarding the lacquer thinner issue and they responded with the following:

Thank you for your interest in PPG products. DPLF Epoxy Primer has a 7 day window. If properly mixed, and the product is within it's shelf life it should not wipe off with lacquer thinner. You might want to check the manufactured date (bottom of can}. The DPLF Epoxy primer has a shelf life of 7 years unopened and 1 year opened. The catalyst DP401/402LF has a shelf life of 2 years unopened and 14 days opened. If these product are past their shelf life they will not cure and can be wiped off with lacquer thinner. For your convenience we have attached a Product Bulletin on DPLF Epoxy Primer.

So, apparently everyone that responed on the Hot Rod forum was using expired product, based on the above response. That's highly possible, since some restorations (as a hobby) can exceed 1 year and how many people are going to throw away expensive paint within a year? Especially if the catalyst is shot 14 days after being opened (it would be very easy to use expired catalyst). Being aware of the 7 year shelf life is also important, but I would think a high volume store probably has good inventory turn around so it's probably not as big of an issue. I think the use of expired catalyst is the main issue here since it has such a short window time and I'm probably guilty on this one.

I do have some fully cured DPLF on the inside of my bumpers, so when I get a chance I'll go out and try to wipe it off and see what happens. If anything, we now know the importance of following the shelf life of these products the next time we purchase it and to throw the unused amount upon expiration. It's too bad they don't publish the shelf life in the data sheets.

seventysixvette

The response to this thread is overwhelming! I've learned more here listening to the voices of experience than anywhere else!

I'm a pretty good mechanic, I've got a real knack for electrical systems. But I'll happily admit right up front I'm truly ignorant when it comes to paint and prep. Mechanical and electrical work follows simple, logical paths and isn't real hard to do. Paint has a certain amount of artistry and talent I honestly don't think everyone can learn. I just hope I can it together enough to shoot a passable enough paint job.

Fellers, thanks again...I'll be bookmarking this for future reference.
John

roger55

Al,

Great Info!

Do you mind if I quote your last post to that thread on Hotrodders.com? It seems to me that thread was kind of left with no conclusions and I think your info would be helpful to their members.
Or, would you rather sign up there and post it yourself?

Roger

crazywelder

Go ahead Roger, I don't mind at all. That thread was pretty old and I noticed that BarryK (not Corvette Forum BarryK) never followed up. I find the 14 day catalyst rule as being very easy to break and I'm glad I asked the question.

Jim Dillon

Kudos to you Al on following up on DPLF with PPG. It is a good product that should be at least one of the substances in our arsenal on repainting Corvettes. Years ago I found PPG to be extremely helpful by phone although today with computers I find it more difficult, go figure. Good effort,thanks-Jim