Safety and Isocyanates
03-03-2007, 10:09 AM
#1
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Safety and Isocyanates
I thought I would start a thread on this important issue and snip from a couple of posts from the POR-15 thread that were a little off-topic in that thread.
I am definitely not an expert on this issue but have done a little research and I have previously posted the following:
>>>
"OV (carbon) cartridge respirators do filter isocyanates. Also, POR-15 does not contain isocyanates. Hardeners in 2K paint systems are what contain isocyanates.
The 3 most common isocyanates found in 2K hardeners are:
HEXAMETHYLENE DIISOCYANATE
ISOPHRONE DIISOCYANATE
DIPHENYLMETHANE DIISOCYANATE
Here is a link to the 2007 3M Respirator Selection Guide that I have downloaded:
http://pages.suddenlink.net/lt1/3mRespGuide.pdf
As you can see, 3M's recommended cartridge for these isocyanates is OV/N95. (Organic Vapor with particulate pre-filter)
However it states either "Warning Unknown" or "Poor Warning". What they are saying here is, when the cartridge is saturated you can't tell by smell because isocyanates have no odor.
Due to the danger of the isocyanates and the poor warning combination, supplied air respirators are the only recommended way to go.
If you are going to use the OV cartridge while shooting 2K paints, I would use new cartridges everyday and make sure your mask fits tightly. Also make sure you get the best ventilation possible in your garage or spraybooth to keep the concentrations as low as possible.
The fact is that it can be done and it is done all the time. I have done it before but intend to get a supplied air system before my next paint job with 2K paints."
<<<
Michel B then posted the following:
>>>
Roger; I see you did your homework lol,,, I'm by far a professional painter but part of my work is painting aircraft parts and we only use polyurethane paints which contain isocyanates. Our work installations are governed by federal rules and you would be surprised at what you must have to use these paints. shops are divided in three parts, a contaminated area, a transition area with showers and a clean area. This stuff will migrate through unprotected skin. The ONLY time it is acceptable to use a cartridge versus positive air is when applying paint with brush or roller. Spraying atomizes the paint into the ambient air and multiplies the toxicity. All these nice things said,,,lol I do realise that most people do not come in contact with this paint more than once or twice in there lifetime and most likely will not be affected. Its like smoking one pack of cigs once in your life, (figure of speech). We do have a rule of thumb when using cartridge filters with this paint; because there is no way to know when the charcoal is gummed up, we limit our exposure and replace the cartridges every ten minutes. I'm not trying to scare anybody, but its a good idea to use common sense in personal safety,, gloves, nylon coveralls, hood and full face mask and of course a shower afterwards and your in business.
>>>
I am definitely not an expert on this issue but have done a little research and I have previously posted the following:
>>>
"OV (carbon) cartridge respirators do filter isocyanates. Also, POR-15 does not contain isocyanates. Hardeners in 2K paint systems are what contain isocyanates.
The 3 most common isocyanates found in 2K hardeners are:
HEXAMETHYLENE DIISOCYANATE
ISOPHRONE DIISOCYANATE
DIPHENYLMETHANE DIISOCYANATE
Here is a link to the 2007 3M Respirator Selection Guide that I have downloaded:
http://pages.suddenlink.net/lt1/3mRespGuide.pdf
As you can see, 3M's recommended cartridge for these isocyanates is OV/N95. (Organic Vapor with particulate pre-filter)
However it states either "Warning Unknown" or "Poor Warning". What they are saying here is, when the cartridge is saturated you can't tell by smell because isocyanates have no odor.
Due to the danger of the isocyanates and the poor warning combination, supplied air respirators are the only recommended way to go.
If you are going to use the OV cartridge while shooting 2K paints, I would use new cartridges everyday and make sure your mask fits tightly. Also make sure you get the best ventilation possible in your garage or spraybooth to keep the concentrations as low as possible.
The fact is that it can be done and it is done all the time. I have done it before but intend to get a supplied air system before my next paint job with 2K paints."
<<<
Michel B then posted the following:
>>>
Roger; I see you did your homework lol,,, I'm by far a professional painter but part of my work is painting aircraft parts and we only use polyurethane paints which contain isocyanates. Our work installations are governed by federal rules and you would be surprised at what you must have to use these paints. shops are divided in three parts, a contaminated area, a transition area with showers and a clean area. This stuff will migrate through unprotected skin. The ONLY time it is acceptable to use a cartridge versus positive air is when applying paint with brush or roller. Spraying atomizes the paint into the ambient air and multiplies the toxicity. All these nice things said,,,lol I do realise that most people do not come in contact with this paint more than once or twice in there lifetime and most likely will not be affected. Its like smoking one pack of cigs once in your life, (figure of speech). We do have a rule of thumb when using cartridge filters with this paint; because there is no way to know when the charcoal is gummed up, we limit our exposure and replace the cartridges every ten minutes. I'm not trying to scare anybody, but its a good idea to use common sense in personal safety,, gloves, nylon coveralls, hood and full face mask and of course a shower afterwards and your in business.
>>>
Last edited by roger55; 08-13-2007 at 08:12 AM.
03-03-2007, 04:49 PM
#3
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Acrylic urethane, and polyurethane hardeners contain isocyanates.
Not sure if epoxys have isocyanates or not, I think some of them may. Maybe someone else can shed light on that. Polyester fillers
(like Bondo), primers and fiberglass resin use MEKP hardeners and they don't have isocyanates.
Last edited by roger55; 03-03-2007 at 05:11 PM.
03-04-2007, 10:35 PM
#4
Roger I see you have done your homework on isocyanates. There are other toxic chemicals in these paint systems that for lack of a better term can be called nasty stuff. The more you research the scarier it can seem. I stubbornly refused to step up and buy a fresh air system for quite awhile. I had my explosion proof fan in my home booth go spit one time in the middle of a long paint job and had to rely on box fans which didn't move the air too well. The explosion proof fan had served me well by moving alot of air so it kept up with the fog pretty well and I was not breathing too much thru the mask (at least I was telling myself that). I was painting urethane with a mask with particulate filters. I had an incident following where my nose ran like a faucet, without warning and was sick for days. I had used fresh air systems before that on a few occasions but right after that bought my first SAS Survivair system. I am now on my second Survivair system which I feel works really well.
After running into a number of other instances of people being "sensitized" with various projects with urethane and polyurethane enamel systems over the years I became an advocate for fresh air systems. My system ran me $650 twenty some years ago and I see they are still in that range.
I see some references to guys on this forum that want to paint their cars themselves but they cannot afford the big money air removal systems and more than likely will have some heavy vapors floating around their paint spaces. Although using the 3M masks, or similar such as SAS, you can argue that they can do the job (and they very well might if the painters are as disciplined as you suggest in changing filters regularly), I feel that fresh air systems should be strongly considered if you are going to paint with these hardened paints in an enclosed spaces.
I know firsthand how expensive all this stuff can run but a nice paintjob is right up there these days so do it yourselfers have to spend some of that saved money on equipping their own shop. Easy to say but owning and refurbishing these cars we all know is not a cheap proposition.
I am not familiar with the other systems and would be interested to hear what others use. I see Devilbiss has a system but know nothing about it. The downside to my system is that I have to drag around two hoses, standard air line and breathing airline taped together. They may or should make one airline with two separate inner liners so it makes it easy to walk the car without fighting your airline.
Not trying to start anything more than a dialog where we can try to figure out the best ways to get the best job in the safest manner.-Jim
After running into a number of other instances of people being "sensitized" with various projects with urethane and polyurethane enamel systems over the years I became an advocate for fresh air systems. My system ran me $650 twenty some years ago and I see they are still in that range.
I see some references to guys on this forum that want to paint their cars themselves but they cannot afford the big money air removal systems and more than likely will have some heavy vapors floating around their paint spaces. Although using the 3M masks, or similar such as SAS, you can argue that they can do the job (and they very well might if the painters are as disciplined as you suggest in changing filters regularly), I feel that fresh air systems should be strongly considered if you are going to paint with these hardened paints in an enclosed spaces.
I know firsthand how expensive all this stuff can run but a nice paintjob is right up there these days so do it yourselfers have to spend some of that saved money on equipping their own shop. Easy to say but owning and refurbishing these cars we all know is not a cheap proposition.
I am not familiar with the other systems and would be interested to hear what others use. I see Devilbiss has a system but know nothing about it. The downside to my system is that I have to drag around two hoses, standard air line and breathing airline taped together. They may or should make one airline with two separate inner liners so it makes it easy to walk the car without fighting your airline.
Not trying to start anything more than a dialog where we can try to figure out the best ways to get the best job in the safest manner.-Jim
03-05-2007, 03:34 AM
#5
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Once the air has cleared in your garage or shop or booth, you are no longer at risk with Iso's.. yes they are dangerous, but they are not as some gather.. It is the long term epxosure that gets you.. Once Iso's get in your lungs they never leave.. they "stick" inside your lungs where they will be till death.. If you keep building these up over years and years, you will have problems as you begin to age.. Just like smoking, does not bother you when you are young, but as you get older what you have done starts to pay you back... Proper care should be taken when working with any chemical, be it 2k or 1k.. When the air has cleared you will still be breathing all the solvents as they are escaping if you remove your mask.. and of course thats not something you want to inhale all the time either..
The charcol filters that most hobbist use are fine for what they are.. however if you are doing this everyday, you need a booth or a fresh air system.. For a one time home job, or a car or two a year, the charcol filters are fine..
Epoxy does not use Iso's to kick it ( cure it).. 2K means 2 componets, and epoxy is a 2k product, but in the body/paint industry when someone is speaking of 2k, they are 9 times out of 10 going to be referring to "Urethane Primer".. epoxy is called epoxy even though it is 2k, base coat ( 1k) and clear coat (2k)..
The charcol filters that most hobbist use are fine for what they are.. however if you are doing this everyday, you need a booth or a fresh air system.. For a one time home job, or a car or two a year, the charcol filters are fine..
Epoxy does not use Iso's to kick it ( cure it).. 2K means 2 componets, and epoxy is a 2k product, but in the body/paint industry when someone is speaking of 2k, they are 9 times out of 10 going to be referring to "Urethane Primer".. epoxy is called epoxy even though it is 2k, base coat ( 1k) and clear coat (2k)..
03-05-2007, 02:03 PM
#6
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
I see some references to guys on this forum that want to paint their cars themselves but they cannot afford the big money air removal systems and more than likely will have some heavy vapors floating around their paint spaces. Although using the 3M masks, or similar such as SAS, you can argue that they can do the job (and they very well might if the painters are as disciplined as you suggest in changing filters regularly), I feel that fresh air systems should be strongly considered if you are going to paint with these hardened paints in an enclosed spaces.
I know firsthand how expensive all this stuff can run but a nice paintjob is right up there these days so do it yourselfers have to spend some of that saved money on equipping their own shop. Easy to say but owning and refurbishing these cars we all know is not a cheap proposition.
Jim
When it concerns your health, it's better to err on the side of being too safe than the other way around. And, I didn't intend to make it sound like isocyanates are the only dangerous thing in paints. It's just that it's what receives the most attention and warnings from the paint manufactures.
Also, I had heard that when Dupont Imron first was introduced that it's high concentrations of isocyanates actually killed some people.
Restoring cars is an expensive hobby. (However, it is a hobby where you can recoup your money from unlike some others.) When you consider that a top-notch paint job can cost $7500 these days. A do-it-yourselfer shouldn't balk at the price of safety equipment. This is exactly why I said that I intend to get a supplied air system before my next paint job even though you can "get away with" a carbon cartridge mask.
Another thing is, we really don't know the EXACTLY when it is time to change the cartridges as there are so many factors that could determine the time it takes for the cartridge to get saturated. We won't get any professional guidance on that question either because of liability.
I think what BondoKing said is true, but I just don't want to take any chances anymore even though I'm in that range of painting a car only every year or two.
Roger
03-05-2007, 02:55 PM
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Roger the filters have an 8 hour life once you have opened them from the package.. As soon as you are done using the mask it needs to be taken apart and each filter put in a zip lock bag and the mask and filters put into a gallon zip lock bag.. This keeps the charcol from continuing to be used, since you have sealed it up.. Otherwise in 8 hours they are no longer safe to use to keep Iso's out..
Most people never seal their mask and use them forever, just one more reason they are not trusted.. If you want to get a supplied air mask, I am all for it, I just want people to understand that it is NOT the only safe way to paint
Most people never seal their mask and use them forever, just one more reason they are not trusted.. If you want to get a supplied air mask, I am all for it, I just want people to understand that it is NOT the only safe way to paint
03-08-2007, 08:06 AM
#8
Melting Slicks
A huge insight into the filter and how it works. I painted last night with old filters in a well ventilated area, outside, but am still freaked out! I will buy new filters as soon as the paint store opens in the morning! This should be a temp sticky on every forum!
03-08-2007, 08:55 AM
#9
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
HobbyAir SAS Systems
I've heard some good things about the HobbyAir system.
Looks like they are pretty reasonably priced too.
Here's some links to suppliers:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalo...s/hobbyair.php
http://clmcenterprises.srv08.yourhost.com/hobbyair.htm
Roger
Looks like they are pretty reasonably priced too.
Here's some links to suppliers:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalo...s/hobbyair.php
http://clmcenterprises.srv08.yourhost.com/hobbyair.htm
Roger
Last edited by roger55; 03-08-2007 at 09:32 PM.
03-08-2007, 10:16 AM
#10
Drifting
Good info Roger. I hope a lot of people read this thread and understand the potential dangers of using these products even at a hobby level. When I started painting at the Ford dealer in the late 60's, very few body men wore a respirator or dust mask, even though they were available, because just as with smoking, the dangers were not identified yet. Although I got out of painting full time after 3 years, I painted and breathed the prep dust for 20 more years as a hobby before I started using respirators. It wasn't until the urethane products were introduced that most painters woke up and started following safety precautions.
A respirator really isn't enough anymore to take advantage of todays high tech products. Spending $500 on the air system you showed is nothing, compared to what health effects a young painter today could have in another 20 or 30 years. Just include it as part of the project budget!
A respirator really isn't enough anymore to take advantage of todays high tech products. Spending $500 on the air system you showed is nothing, compared to what health effects a young painter today could have in another 20 or 30 years. Just include it as part of the project budget!
03-09-2007, 09:44 AM
#11
Instructor
Member Since: Jan 2006
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A couple of other thoughts here people...
I bought a supplied air system off of ebay for sand blasting and it works well. Silica dust is not too good for your health either. I need to buy a paint hood for it when I get ready to paint though.
The up side to buying a supplied air system, paint gun etc. is that you can sell them when you are done and recoup most of your money. You can also find them for sale used and save some $$$. If you are are doing one car this would make since to me. If you are doing more than one car or painting for a hobby then I would really consider the supplied air as manditory. Like someone else posted above...what price do you put on your health? For me, $500-$1000 for safety equipment is cheep!
I bought a supplied air system off of ebay for sand blasting and it works well. Silica dust is not too good for your health either. I need to buy a paint hood for it when I get ready to paint though.
The up side to buying a supplied air system, paint gun etc. is that you can sell them when you are done and recoup most of your money. You can also find them for sale used and save some $$$. If you are are doing one car this would make since to me. If you are doing more than one car or painting for a hobby then I would really consider the supplied air as manditory. Like someone else posted above...what price do you put on your health? For me, $500-$1000 for safety equipment is cheep!
03-10-2007, 05:59 PM
#12
Race Director
If you follow the instructions and use the organic filter like you should youll be fine, You do not need a forced air system.
When using anything with isocyanates regularly you should have yourself checked out by your doctor, blood test lung anything that could be affected in the marine corps we are tested every 5 years for this and we fit test our resperators and keep them sealed when not in use and I throw away the canisters why chance it? Any painting you should have a resporator a pre filter is nice but its the organic filter that is saving your life.
8 hours max on those filters so id round down about a hour
When using anything with isocyanates regularly you should have yourself checked out by your doctor, blood test lung anything that could be affected in the marine corps we are tested every 5 years for this and we fit test our resperators and keep them sealed when not in use and I throw away the canisters why chance it? Any painting you should have a resporator a pre filter is nice but its the organic filter that is saving your life.
8 hours max on those filters so id round down about a hour
03-23-2007, 11:50 PM
#13
Melting Slicks
back to the top, with more people coming into this forum and painting, this thing is one issue we need to keep addressing. Safety is the most important thing in painting!
JOE
And stripping, sanding ect...
JOE
And stripping, sanding ect...
03-24-2007, 12:16 AM
#14
Melting Slicks
To add to the excellent info in this thread don't forget about safety while sanding. Sanding dust is very dangerous to the respiratory system. It never ceases to amaze me how you never see anyone spraying in a body shop these days without a respirator but I rarely see anyone wearing a respirator while sanding! 3M makes some very nice, light weight respirators part numbers 6191 small, 6291 medium, and 6391 large. Available at any quality paint store.
Please don't use a common white "dust mask" as they don't fit flush to the face and the fine dust produced when sanding will pass through between the side of the mask and the face. The 3M mask shown above uses a rubber gasket that sits tight agents the face just like a paint respirator.
Please don't use a common white "dust mask" as they don't fit flush to the face and the fine dust produced when sanding will pass through between the side of the mask and the face. The 3M mask shown above uses a rubber gasket that sits tight agents the face just like a paint respirator.
05-28-2007, 08:01 AM
#15
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
To add to the excellent info in this thread don't forget about safety while sanding. Sanding dust is very dangerous to the respiratory system. It never ceases to amaze me how you never see anyone spraying in a body shop these days without a respirator but I rarely see anyone wearing a respirator while sanding! 3M makes some very nice, light weight respirators part numbers 6191 small, 6291 medium, and 6391 large. Available at any quality paint store.
Please don't use a common white "dust mask" as they don't fit flush to the face and the fine dust produced when sanding will pass through between the side of the mask and the face. The 3M mask shown above uses a rubber gasket that sits tight agents the face just like a paint respirator.
Please don't use a common white "dust mask" as they don't fit flush to the face and the fine dust produced when sanding will pass through between the side of the mask and the face. The 3M mask shown above uses a rubber gasket that sits tight agents the face just like a paint respirator.
You make an excellent point on the dust issue. You are exactly right and I am guilty on this as well. I will be checking out the masks you mention here.
Roger
06-25-2007, 05:26 PM
#16
I Have A Hobby Air System, I Painted My Cobra With It, Works Awesome, I Highly Reccomend It To Anyone. Remember, You Only Get 1 Set Of Lungs, For The 400 Bucks, Buy The System And Have Piece Of Mind
07-07-2007, 07:51 AM
#17
Safety Car
I just ordered the SAS pure air 2000 system for $187 and and a full face mask for $135 here is the link
http://search.cartserver.com/search/...s=sas&go=GO%21
very good price. for a little more tha $300 I will do it the safest way
http://search.cartserver.com/search/...s=sas&go=GO%21
very good price. for a little more tha $300 I will do it the safest way
08-09-2007, 02:16 PM
#18
I own a LINE-X spray-on bedliner franchise. One of the chemicals used is diphenylmethane diisocyanate. According to OSHA (and yes, they have visited my shop), the ONLY approved respirator is a supplied fresh air respirator, that's it, nothing else.
Last edited by 123Gone; 09-12-2007 at 09:58 AM.
09-11-2007, 10:10 PM
#19
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Roger the filters have an 8 hour life once you have opened them from the package.. As soon as you are done using the mask it needs to be taken apart and each filter put in a zip lock bag and the mask and filters put into a gallon zip lock bag.. This keeps the charcol from continuing to be used, since you have sealed it up.. Otherwise in 8 hours they are no longer safe to use to keep Iso's out..
Most people never seal their mask and use them forever, just one more reason they are not trusted.. If you want to get a supplied air mask, I am all for it, I just want people to understand that it is NOT the only safe way to paint
Most people never seal their mask and use them forever, just one more reason they are not trusted.. If you want to get a supplied air mask, I am all for it, I just want people to understand that it is NOT the only safe way to paint
I have a problem doing this.
You're talking about putting a filter and the mask in a bag where both the dirty and clean sides of the mask are sealed togther.
Think of using a mask and particle filters, in a really dusty area, after a while the outside is covered in dust, the inside is clean ( as it should be ).
Toss that in your bag and move it around a bit, after time the inside will get as dirty as the outside.
For the cost of some filters, I clean my mask inside and out, store it in a bag and toss the filters after using them.
09-15-2007, 12:21 AM
#20
Burning Brakes
It amazes me how people on TV do it with just a half mask cartridge. I thought all 2 stage and most primer hardeners have Iso's in them.
Another safe way is to go to a safety supply store and rent an SCBA (Self Contained Breathing Apparatus). You get 30 minutes of air on one bottle and it only cost me $25 a day to rent.
I do like that SAS system though. Great price How many cfm do you breath? Can it be used on a small pancake compressor?
Another safe way is to go to a safety supply store and rent an SCBA (Self Contained Breathing Apparatus). You get 30 minutes of air on one bottle and it only cost me $25 a day to rent.
I do like that SAS system though. Great price
How many cfm do you breath? Can it be used on a small pancake compressor?