capecorvette

ok, some of you have followed my primer cracking issue, i think i have that problem fixed. i am at the point where i dont want to spend 500 bucks a gal for dupont chroma 2 stage paint. i am thinking going single stage (color will be a solid red, no metallic) i know single stage is much cheaper. if i get cracking after the car is painted it will be less painfull (on my wallet) as i didnt spend as much on the paint.
any thoughts? also, any online paint suppliers out there that you know of?
thanks

wombvette

Quality single stage is not much if any cheaper than BC, except that you will not be shooting clear, which may save a little. But, I agree. I never use BC/CC on solid colors.

Mark G

I didn't follow your 'Primer Cracking Issue' but I would be sure you get that resolved first before you spray a single drop of paint on your car. If you've got primer cracking, I would ask if you stripped the car?? If not, I would suggest you do so. Chances are, it's the substrate that's old and cracking. Obviously you can't expect any primer to solve undercoat problems. Heck, I stripped my car in a weekend with stripper. If you did strip the car, then it's got to be in the gel coat, or you got a bad batch of primer or catalyst. You aren't using lacquer primer are you? (don't do that!!)

Now, for your paint dilema I would say, if this is going to be a driveway/garage paint job, base/clear is the way to go. Here's why: you WILL get crap in your paint, that's ok, expect some ...and base-clear allows you to 'fix' the boogers better and easier than single stage.

You 'can' wetsand and buff single-stage paint, but you will also be removing the shallow layer of UV protectant that rises to the paint surface ...and it'll fade much more quickly from that day on. Especially red. Red tends to oxidize quicker than other colors. I can speak from experience here. I have a '62 Fairlane I painted a long time ago and went with single stage for the reasons you indicated. I had to wetsand/buff it to get it to look good. Now, it will begin to haze over in a matter of weeks. No kidding. I have to buff it every time I go to a car show. I kick myself every time I think about the money I thought I was saving going with single-stage. What a bad decision. That was a learning point with me. From that point on, I never tried to save money and go with a single-stage for an overall. With a base-clear, you retain the UV protectant (the clear) and avoid that problem altogether. There are some other minor reasons that favor a single-stage for red, but I think they pale when compared to the issues you face with a home, garage paint job. You should be able to get a base-clear job to look like a show paint job with the right amount of work. Hard to do with a single-stage paint.

Having said that, I totally sympathize with your plight of paying the big bucks for Chroma Base/Clear. The good news is you don't have to go the big bucks route. Urethane paint is not a new technology anymore and there are a lot of 2nd-tier players in the paint market that have great products at much lower prices. In fact, the major paint companies themselves have 2nd tier companies too to compete in the lower priced market: Dupont=Nason, PPG=Omni, Sherwin Williams (Napa-Martin Senour)= Crossfire. These are good products. They market these brands towards smaller shops and do-it your selfers like me and you.

I used to use Martin Senour and DuPont exclusively for years, and I grudgingly forked out the stratospheric $$ for each paint job. But 6 years or so ago I started using Nason and Omni on the urging of a few of my buddies. Mostly for smaller repairs at first (I do more than the average amount of paint repair work at home). I was very satisfied with their performance and really couldn't tell a difference. I also started experimenting with other brand clearcoats and primers, like Transtar and Morton (by USC). I think the Morton primer was better than the name brand stuff I was using before. I've pretty much switched over.

For my 81, which I have stripped, replaced some panels and all that, I elected to use Nason Urethane 2k high-build primer. I will use the Nason Urethane sealer (non-sanding) prior to spraying the Nason base, and topcoat with 3 coats of Transtar Euroclear. It's at least half of what the Martin Senour pricing is. My brother and another guy I know have been using Napa Crossfire for years and he just did a 68 Mustang convertible in Crossfire. Looks great. The off-brand clears I've used have held up fine for several years, so that hasn't been an issue for me.

My recomendation is to check pricing with your local paint and body shop and compare and see what's right for you. If it were me though, I'd go with a Base-clearcoat. But be ABSOLUTELY sure you've got your substrate undercontrol. I've been doing this as a hobbie for some 23 years and I've never heard of primer cracking. Something's not right there. If you're paint over old paint, I'd stop in my tracks and strip the whole car ... even if it's ready for paint. Don't cut corners or you'll kick yourself a year from now. Anyway, Hope this helps.

porchdog

i use ss any time i can. i sand and buff it every time. the only issue with ss red is if it is cheap 2nd line paint it will orange up on you when you sand it. a single stage urethane is not going to oxidize if it is quality paint. i never bc/cc black . but then i do not use base coat at all. i use ppg concept ss for color and spi uv clear. base clear was started for production speed. 2 coats of clear and out the door without polishing. we started years ago by putting a coat of clear enamel over lacquer to cut time. plus all the new fangled metallics made it hard to polish so we had to clear it. the nice thing about ss is you can shoot it and if you have issues you can simply block it out and recoat until your happy. same with the universal clear. i do 6 coats . try that with most other clears and you will have solvent pop for years good luck.

71white

Porchdog
You say that you use concept and then uv clear. Do you have to sand the concept before clearing? and why don't you use bc/cc system for black?
Thanks

porchdog

when clear over black starts to get scratched ( by say a rag ) it hazes the look of black. i custom mix my black to be dark and clear. i just cant get it as black with clear. i wait over night to clear single stage. i will get it covered and block it some and remove any trash then put a final coat on as slick as i can. i give it plenty of flash time then start clearing. i do 3 coats , block the next day , let set over night then 3 more coats.

gotta go low and slow with paint

wombvette

I agree with the dog. I have tried the Nasons, Omnies, and others, they aint for me. The quality is not as good, and the economy is misleading. The coverage is not typically as good and the mixtures often dont yield as much material.

Mark G

This seemed to be the case years ago, but I find the coverage has gotten better in recent years. I've heard others say the same.

porchdog

i will never understand using a 2nd line paint on a corvette . ok for a tractor or farm truck but to try to save a few dollars on a paint job this way just does not make sense . i'm not that thrilled with most of the first line paints much less the others . i tried omni ss black a few years ago. after sanding and buffing you could see thru the surface and see texture in the coat below. threw every bit of it in the trash and redid the car. never again .

crazywelder

Paint is too expensive nowadays to take a chance. Todays mid and premium paints are the longest lasting and most durable finishes in history, The money saved on low line paint now, will be respent sooner than if you used a better quality paint from the start. I could see a cheaper paint on a steel body car or a dialy driver, or if you plan to sell the car within a year or two. But in my opinion with the amount of work to do a Vette properly, use a premium paint and be done with it.

To save money, I would choose a color other than red and use the better paint.

Mark G

I encourage you to be open about paint companies other than the major name brands. One single-stage job several years ago is not the entire line, like I say, they've come a long way. Urethane paint technology is 'out of the box' and has been for several years. Lots of companies produce good paints. But the market is shrinking and it's gonna be hard for these companies to beat the major brands. The adage that the most expensive products are ALWAYS better is just not the case. If you read the bodyshop journals, you know that a number of the same chemical engineers that worked for the major paint companies have been entice to other companies helping make these 2nd tier companies' products as good and often times better in that they are more flexible.

Another issue is that has changed in the past number of years is the paint market. Fewer shops and fewer hobbiests and more regulation have made paint companies market their top line products to shops that use their system, that's the 80% of the market. The Nason/Omni line was developed to be marketed toward smaller shops and hobbiests.

Finally, I would not argue with using PPG or DuPont, or spies Hecker or Sherwin Williams paint products. They all make good product. But the main question was what were the alternatives. I've tried to outline a few. I've used these other paints and clears along side DuPont and PPG and so have guys I know that spray Sikkens and PPG and they admit, albiet, grudgingly, that they're pretty good. On a corvette that will be garaged it's entire life mostly out of the sun, I can't think of why a name brand paint would offer a whole lot more durability. Where they do shine is the colors they offer and certain new types of paint.

Cost savings can be in the hundreds of dollars. If a guy is spraying a $5,000 C3 in his garage, to me, that is not insignificant. But overall, I agree with your argument. However, if funds are super-tight, there are options. I'm doing mine in Transtar Euroclear for counter-bragging rights ... to show guys that it's a good product. I can afford the good stuff too.

porchdog

i dont even like ppg or dupont. they are production paint period. 2 coats and out the door. i use spi because it is far superior to either . it designed for restoration and custom work , not production. shoots great, buffs with ease and does not have the multitude of problems that come with production paint. i use ppg concept for color but everything else is spi. i also do not use 2k primer , only epoxy. i've been at this for 40 years and have seen and tried just about everything. at less than 150 for a 2 gal mix of clear why would i use 2 nd line paint that will not perform or hold out. on every board i am a member of there are always threads on paint problems and 9 out of 10 are 2nd line or off brand paints. solvent pop, die back, hazing , hard buffing and on and on. i tried matrix on a car last year and found it to be pure junk. brittle and will chip easy. at best you will save a few hundred dollars on 2nd line. how much will a redo cost ? jmho

Mark G

I guess then we both agree that some paint companies other than the majors (e.g. PPG / DuPont) 'can' have great products. I've heard of SPI but personally never used them. I don't know who even distributes them up my way. I would consider them a tier-2 paint company as they are not one of the major household names (they might be more popular in your area). But I take your word for it that they have great products - I would not be suprised. So often the larger companies are conservative and the smaller companies are nimble and creative with their products and push the larger companies to adopt newer technologies.

porchdog

barry knives , the owner is a painter and a vette guy to boot. you can reach him anytime by phone and he is always willing to help even if it is not his product. his products are designed for us , not the chevy dealer. unlike the lying 2 faced reps i've had to deal with from dupont and ppg he is a straight shooter. the prices of his product are as good or better than 2nd line stuff. i have tested it and it performed just as he said it would. i cleared the 57 in dec and waited until march to buff. cant do that with production clears.
once you go spi........... you'll never go back