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Dub or anyone else

Been frustrated with my paint job and wanted your opinion. Paid big bucks to get my 1977 Corvette painted in Code 66 correct orange. He talked me in to Trueflex bumper, which I regret, but its done. My problem is the peak lines on side of rear quarter panels have alignment issues with the peak line on the sides of the bumper. I will add pictures below.

For one, the left side is misaligned, and the bumper is moved to the best position where most of the edges fit well, so no more adjustment available. As you can see in picture, its dropped.

On right side, it aligns, but that peak on the side is not parallel to the ground, by design I think, and as the line goes aft, once it meets the bumper, it turns down with noticeable change. Now, I know factory urethane bumpers were all over the place, and I have seen this on many. But my desire is that this peak line flow in a straight line, and it does not on either side.

Another point of fact, the peak lines going forward from front wheel opening forward, as well as between both wheel wells appears much more rounded than aft of the rear wheel well....again, it appears by design from GM. Not sure why....on chrome bumper cars, it is NOT consistent front to back.

One solution I have is to round that rear peak line off, similar to the others, and if done right, should be able to straighten that line out by careful blocking. When looking from side view, the peak line should be parallel to the ground, front to back. Do you agree?

Now, can this be done without possible getting it too thin at the peak? I think obviously doing this will get into and through the orange paint, requiring color matching....which is another can of worms.

It may seem like I am picky, and I am......overall my car body lines are a significant improvement over factory, but I spent the money to get it perfect, and its not quite there and it bugs me.

Appreciate any comments.

NONN37

that is actaully REALLY nice. If I had to try and fix it. I would try and do it at the bumper only.

on the pass side i would treat the rear corner like a high spot and shape the corner below the body line so the line gets higher. and blend it to the front seam. You sill retain the same like through the back below the lights. maybe round the peak a bit as it gets to the corner. probably thin out the bumper so reinforce the back with more glass.

probably do the same on the drive

just a suggestion/idea id have to see it in person. looking down that line to see if it strays out at the bumper corner, or how tight it turns in.

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Thanks for the input....I agree with what you have suggested, and hope I can achieve what I want without touching the fenders.....if I can make it work with only side of the bumper, it will be easier.

DUB

I can see some of of what you are mentioning. Being there so I can actually see all of it would be better due to photos really do not work when looking for really fine details that are off.

Trying to compare a chrome bumper quarter panel Corvette to your quarter...is something I do not due because they are different and expecting them to be the exact same...is stretching it a bit...in my opinion. There may be similarities...but nothing I would use to compare it to.

As for telling you that you can block on it and get it to where you want it...I can not with 100% certainty say IF you can or not. Not knowing what was done...it is hard to say if the bumpers were already blocked to the body when they were fitted or not and how much was taken off of them or the body itself.

Not knowing or caring how much you paid. That is between you and the painter. BUT..I can say from my own experiences. When I get customers who want a 'perfect' paint job. They get a price that makes them cough up a lung. I then begin to explain that if they want perfect...this is what it takes. And knowing that time is money...the more of my time they pay for...the more they can get to a perfect paint job. If they only want to spend 'X' amount of dollars...all I can do is my best to try to get what is important for that owner taken care of. I am not trying to make your concerns seem invalid. But when i get owners who are really picky and want what they want. They get called in so they can sign off on those areas that pass their approval. And in doing this..I often times have to totally re-assemble the car in primer before it is going to be painted so it is inspected...and thus...they are paying for that time. And then I have to take it all back apart again and then put it all back together again afte rit is painted. So...it all depends.

I will mention this. If you just have to get this the way you want it....just be aware....and I am assuming that this is a basecoat/clearcoat painted car. When you break through the clearcoat....and get into the basecoat and the undercoats....you are opening up a potential issue where the repair may need to be painted AGAIN. Or at least cleared again.

This is due to when you break through the clearcoat...and get into the basecoat. When a primer, sealer or basecoat is sprayed on the area where the clear has been removed and thus leaving an edge. The solvents of the primer, sealer or basecoat CAN effect that edge due to the solvents want to get UNDER the clearcoat and cause it to lift or swell.

Keep in mind also the factory paint does not do this because it is baked at really high temp. Aftermarket paint jobs...even if they are cured by heat...can still have this problem due to variables in how many coats of paint and so on. So just because the clear is dry enough to sand, buff and polish does not mean that it is cured totally.

It can be painted and when you get it it will look GREAT...but in about 6 months to a year...do not be surprised if the repair area settles and you can actually see the rings of where the repair area was preformed and the basecoat and clearcoat that were feathered back and exposed and making it look like the rings on a topographical map. I know you have to have seen this in other cars when you see it at the correct angle.

The 'blessing' you have going for you is that the orange is a solid color and NOT a metallic color. where the settling can actually effect the metallics. On solid colors...it generally does not distort the basecoat layer bad enough that you can actually see the disruption.

Keep in mind...if the painter really put the clearcoat on your car due to you paying for a super nice job....then the amount of clear is thicker than a facotry job...thus ...this causes for the feathering of that thick layer of clear to possibly increase. That is really not that big of a deal...but...in some repairs it can be.


The 'trick' that I use when I run into scenarios like this....and the owner does not want any future problems...is working to find a good point to stop and break the clearcoat line IN some body line somewhere. On some corvettes...there is no place to break the line at.....and the clear needs to be stripped/sanded off.

DUB

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Thanks Dub. I will respond to your comments.

Yes, this Truflex bumper took a lot of bodywork both on the bumper and on the fenders to make them match as well as they do. That is one reason why I am so against Truflex bumpers, as you are. It may be required to add fiberglass on inside of the bumpers if the blocking ends up making the bumper too thin.

As for the painter and cost. I did establish the level of perfection I wanted during the discussion. The job was not flat rated, it was time and materials, and he gave me an estimate,....which he exceeded. I also went to the shop after bodywork was done, and in primer and inspected it. I either missed this issue on my inspection, or the rear bumper got moved afterwards. The next time I saw the car was when he delivered it painted. My disappointment was that I was adamantly clear on my expectations, and 95% of the car meets my expectation. It was not an open checkbook, but I don't understand how he let this slide given how well the rest of it went.

I have begun talking to the painter about this repair, but yet to have a good conversation with a resolution.

My biggest concerns are the paint match, and the clearcoat issues your raised. The paint is basecoat / clearcoat and the painter told me the paint has a very high level of clear in the paint formula. The color is amazing in different lights, especially even sunset light, the colors range from orange to yellow, which really highlight the cars shape. BUT, that concerns me when it comes to matching paint in certain areas, and I am worried about fixing the mismatch but creating a color problem.

If I limit the blocking to the bumper only and make it match the factory body line, it may prevent a can of worms issue. Fact is, the factory fender body line is perfect...its just that body line onto the bumper is mismatched and angles down....rather than a continuation of the straight line. Its blatantly obvious to me every time I walk up to the car.....like a flashing neon line. Others may not see it, and I wish I did not see it, but I do.

I am trying to get educated on the downfall of anything I choose to do so I no what I am getting in to. The painter is a great guy, and is well known in the Corvette world in Pennsylvania....and I believe he can fix this, but I expect it will cost me more than I want it to.

DUB

I did not mean to come across that you did not 'cover your bases' and get the car the way you wanted it.

I UNDERSTAND more than you might believe that an area that is off a little bit can cause you to focus on it and even though everything else can be prefect...that ONE area ruins the entire job.

I know that all too well. And that is why when I am working on these Corvettes...the smallest of issues just eat me up and I can not live with it...even though I have friends and customer stop by and ask why I am fixing it because it is not that 'bad'...but I tell them..."If it is not that 'bad'...then it can not be RIGHT".

I hope you come to a decision that makes you happy.

And for what this is wroth. I can honestly day that I am NOT perfect...by no means. And when I have to deal with an issue of having to get back into one of my paint jobs..whether it is due to being damaged form outside forces or a glitch that has shown itself. Knowing that I am hating every second of having to get into my paint work. Even if I am getting paid to do it. I have come to the realization. IF I get my attitude right...the job goes rather well.

I had a customer with a 1964 convertible I did a major off-frame on and put new front and rear clips on it. The owner had it for about 6 months and it got put into ditch and busted the entire rear clip. So when it came in the shop and seeing what I worked so hard to get the lines and paint awesome on...and then knowing I was having to rip it off and do it all over again...even though I was being paid to do so. Still was hard due to I had not even gotten the 'taste out of my mouth' of getting done with it. It was still fresh in my mind of all the time I had spent the first time. So...sometimes...even though a person is getting paid to do something. If they put a lot of effort into making it the best it can be and having to do it all over again....whether it is their fault or someoneelse....it can be a challenge...unless their attitude is right...or at least that is what I have found works for me.

DUB

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I found another painter locally that works Corvettes and classic cars...I had good conversation with him today. His biggest concern is similar to what you said about the repair. I am not going to be satisfied doing nothing, but maybe if I can get all the work done strictly on the bumper, and avoid touching the fenders, I will have a better chance of not having something more extensive to deal with now and down the road. It seems like I could limit the corrections to the bumper since the side of the fender is really good the way it is. But, as usual nobody will give me a rough idea of how much this will cost....time and materials is all I get. I don't need firm commitments to exact numbers but I am not committing to anyone unless I can get rough numbers......is it $500, $1000, $2500, $5000? Why can we not get some rough idea?

DUB

Maybe this helps.,..maybe not.

Hesitation in even giving you a rough price?? Mainly becasue if this...when ever a price is given...even though it is a rough estimate and it is UNDERSTOOD that it is not engraved in granite....the customer...no matter what...will some how subliminally keep that price quote in their mind and hold onto it. Especially if it a verbal price quote.

I often tell people it will cost between $1 and $1,000,000. Not meaning to be a smart @ss...but rather to let them know I have NO CLUE on what it will take or what will happen when I get into it...and YES...just because I do this for a living does not mean I have a crystal ball and know what will happen while working on it.

I have in the past given out rough estimates on fresh paint repairs and when I did...MURPHY'S LAW can into full effect and the job went sideways and turned into a MAJOR problem. Right when a painter 'thinks' that they have it all under control....a problem occurs just like a depth charge going off and can turn the process into a repair that often times we wish we never took in. I have had issues like a small spot the size of the diameter of a #2 pencil eraser...and it grows into the diameter of a basketball.

And...cured paint is one thing...FRESH paint is entirely another issue all together and should be treated carefully.

Not giving a precise or approximate estimate and leaving it to the time it will take to repair it is due to numerous years of experience and KNOWING that what may seem to be an easy job...can turn into royal cluster in a heartbeat....due to the potential problems I previously mentioned to you on what can happen. I know how you feel because if I put myself in a customers position. I would have doubts/concerns also. BUT the difference there is I KNOW what can happen. I know if a customer does not trust me to do it...due to whatever the situation is that brought them to me.....then I do not need to take any more time with them. For me it is a 'two-way street'. The customer and I have to have a good feeling about each other in order for me to do anything for them. If they do not understand that I am in their corner making every effort to make it right...then why am I doing it. Money is money...but enjoying what you are doing and gettign paid for it is something entirely different. AND I do not do stuff I do not enjoy...regardless of the money...because if I sell off my ethics/standards/principles..I am nothing but a *****.

DUB

Torqued Off

Well, I can read what you are saying, but if a professional painter cannot give an estimate better than $1 to $1,000,000, then I am not interested his services. I am not pinning it down to the $1, but its not going to be an open checkbook. I simply am not paying someone $5000, to straighten out 2 body lines. I will do it myself before that. So as much as I am interested in your input, I call this type thinking unacceptable. I am no fool, nor am I getting into a deal with anyone with that type of attitude. I fully understand how projects can expand, but I expect a professional painter to know his job well enough able to look at a job, and come up with an estimate and be accountable for it. Painting Corvettes is not the only job in the world that people pay for. Experienced contractors of any and all kinds should be able to provide an estimate on a job. I don't believe painting a Corvette is that big of a mystery, especially for proclaimed experts and experienced Corvette painters. You have stated your opinion, but I find it disappointing. Sorry, with that type of attitude, you would not see my car in your shop. My part of any deal with a contractor is not to ensure that he makes a profit, no matter what happens. That type of thinking is for people with way more money than I have to spend. I earn, and have always earned, my money the hard way, and I am not about to give an open checkbook to anyone for any thing. This type of business policy is ripe for abuse. Been there, done that,....never again.

Just FYI, I was able to talk to the guy who painted my car today, we discussed the issues and possible approaches to the repair, and I asked him this direct question...$500, $1000, $2000, $10,000. He answered somewhere between $500-$1000. I can live with that type of estimate. But committing to a job without it, not me. Sorry.

And before this gets into back and forth debate, you already stated your business ethics, and I stated my opinion of that. I am done with the thread. I will not be responding to any further comments. END.

DUB

I tried to explain it...and evidently...you read into it what you wanted. And this is coming from someone who does NOT do this. I cleanly explained on what can happen and I have dealt with enough people and they never seem to get an attitude because they understand that I can not give them a figure that they can bank on.

What you FAIL to realize. I get a CLEAR understanding with the customer when a certain dollar value has been reached to contact them so they can see what is going on. SO..if you feel I stick my customer with high dollar invoices...you are clearly mistaken. My customers are ALWAYS in control of their money and can stop anything they wish.

NOW...I am done with this thread.

Best of luck with it.

DUB

csherman

As a restorer, body and paint guy - the line could have been massaged before paint
BUT its not horrible unless you really look for it.
To fix it - would mean sanding the bumper and quarters down and "remaking" the body line.
Then blending the orange and re-clearing the back half and bumper

Honestly - it is not that bad - who ever did it - did a nice job fitting the bumper to the quarter - the defect in the body line maybe in the cover itself
Looks like a nice job overall.

What do other 77's look like

Torqued Off

No doubt the painter could have done a better job before the paint. He had done a lot of work getting the bumper as nice as it is, but its still not good enough for me. The line is straight on the fender, but turns downward on the bumper.....and I cannot ignore it.

What other cars look like to do not matter....if that was the criteria, it would be good enough. Truth is the original rubber bumpers were absolutely horrible....many of them are warped, curves don't match, body lines off....none of which is acceptable.

Making straight body lines is not an extreme request....it should have been done right the first time. Its a fiberglass car....it should be perfect. All it takes is talent and determination to make it so.....and a lot of money.

DUB

T.I.M. ( Time Is Money )

DUB

leadfoot4

How does the line look, with the car on the ground, with the weight being supported by the suspension, which has a way of shifting things around?


Also, not to throw you a "zinger", but with respect to your comments about wanting your car "perfect".....I can understand what you're saying, but A) I think your car looks quite good, as is; B) and secondly, my wife owned two C-3s, back in the day, and both were purchased brand new. Believe me, they were FAR from perfect.

In fact, she bought the second car, a '79, when we were dating. I gave it a good "look-over", and sent it back to the dealer, to have about 30% of the car re-done. The paint was THAT bad............and never mind the fit of the body panels!!

Torqued Off

Yes, I have driven it two summers since I restored it, and the poor body lines are obvious to me from any direction. It is impossible for me to NOT see it.

Yes, the car overall is very good. It was pretty good BEFORE I had it stripped, blocked, body lines fixed and repainted. You keep referring to how the cars were originally, and that is irrelevant to me. I have built this car to far higher standards than GM built it to, and have spent a lot of money and time doing it. Point is, there is ZERO reason why I should accept the fact that the lines are just not straight. It is a very simple thing for a good body man to fix......you act like I am asking for too much, and I don't think so. In fact, if I wanted to spend the time to fix it myself, I could do it, ....and I ain't no body man. So I don't understand your comments.

Any well restored car should be perfect....if not, its because you either don't see the imperfection, or you can't afford it. I have been to Carlisle five years in a row, and you will find row after row of imperfect cars.......I have higher standards....period.

DUB

In my opinion....All I will say is that your are correct and also mistaken

YES...having it the way you want it..I am all for that. Having high standards ...I am also all for that.

But making comments like this: "It is a very simple thing for a good body man to fix.." You are mistaken because if it was that easy...then they would not needing to be fixed.

And if someone feels it is that easy...Then jump in and actually fix it like it was mentioned. "In fact, if I wanted to spend the time to fix it myself, I could do it, ....and I ain't no body man." So when comments like that come out, that person must have obviously done a lot of the bodywork and painting to be able to say that they can fix it.

If they can... that's good to know...becasue if they did nothing on a car being repaired....it is easy for someone to armchair quarterback what others do for a profession. Unless they have done this a lot and have years of experience to back up their thoughts.

For those who think that every car that comes out of a shop has to be perfect when it is being restored. That generally does not happen due to the money people want to put into their cars vary. A person would be shocked in what is so important to one person...such as body lines body lines being prefect. While others would not worry about it and want the facotry look. The same thing holds true when a restoration is being done. The person paying for the service and is in total control of their money and they can have it done to what they feel is perfect for them.

And if a person turned away every job that someone did not want to have perfect. With that thought process...if a person were doing this for a living...they would be seriously putting their business in jeopardy. And not everybody puts that much value into their cars and they drive them and do not worry about all the hype that can be associated with some cars that are special for what ever reason.

I can appreciate you wanting your car perfect and you SHOULD have it the way you want it. Anything less than you being totally satisfied...would be an injustice. I am not judging you...because it is your car and it has to do with what makes you happy. The only thing that I tried to do was offer insight from my experiences in doing this and what can happen. So if my previous comments pissed you off....I can not help that...I am just being honest to myself and what I know about this profession of autobody repair and painting.

DUB

Torqued Off

I thought I was done with you, but I cannot help but respond.

First, you have a long standing reputation on this forum, I know I have been here quite awhile, often reading your posts. Your position is always the same....that you have been doing this along time, and your expertise, in your opinion, makes you an authority that cannot be denied, and that nobody has a right to disagree with you. You continue that attitude again in your post above.

First of all, yeah, it is obviously ME that stated that if I wanted to, I could straighten out that line. That is a fact. I have been quite good at all things related to manual labor, building, modifying, painting, repairing, etc on airplanes, cars and motorcycles for the last 40 plus years....which of course you know nothing about. I will put up my Corvette against anyone's, including anything you built, and I am the one who restored my car....to much higher standard than most I have seen. Its not bragging, its simple a fact. Obviously I paid someone to paint my car.

Your glorification of body work to a science that only folks like you can do is part of your ego problem. You are not the only person who is capable of this type of work nor is it only a skill that professional body men can do. Plenty of amateurs with talent can produce very high quality work...there have been many posted on this forum. Its your position, that you feel the need to express on almost every post you make, that good painting and bodywork is only something you or your professional colleagues can accomplish.

This small alignment and line issue on my car is a simple fix, which would take some simple blocking and refinishing. If the blocking thinned out the bumper, I would add reinforcement glass on the inside. Otherwise, as minor as this is, its not a big challenge. Getting the paint to match and cleared is also not impossible, and if I were to do it, I would not be satisfied till it was correct. I am absolutely sure I could do it. The reason I don't has more to do with my time available, the fact that I have the money to pay for it, and the fact I think the painter owes me this fix, even if he charges me for it.

Your statements about the original painter not getting it right is a fact as well. No kidding. But I do not understand what your point is....because he is capable of doing it right. Its not an impossible task, in fact its a very simple task. But here is the truth....he is very good at what he does. When all was included, including moving body and chassis on separate occasions, I paid him $14,000 for this job, and he is an award winning painter. That's a lot of money. Yet HE FUCKED THIS UP, and did not get the lines straight on both sides of the rear bumper. What's your point?.....that even a professional cannot get this right, so who am I to think I could do it? That is B.S. I paid this guy a lot of money and he failed to get it the way I wanted it, because he failed to do the job I paid him to do. No other reason.

Just so you know, when I originally sat down with him to talk about this job years ago, my absolute requirement was that every peak line be sharp, and straight, front to back. All body lines match and straight. Every door gap to be tight and parallel. That was the criteria I set, I showed him exactly what I expected and told him he either guarantees that or I will go elsewhere. He accepted it as the conditions of the job. He gave me an estimate of cost around $12,000, with the main caveat was the condition of the body when stripped, which was unknown at the start. I let him mistakenly talk me in to Trueflex bumpers, and they took many hours to get to fit, which is main reason for escalation in final bill. The only reason I agreed to this much money was that it was going to be perfect. At no point did I change that position. The painter gave me names of other Corvette owners he painted cars for, and I visited them and looked at their car. I looked at several cars at Carlisle he painted. I could see these cars were done as well as I expected him to do mine, and so agreed to his offer. The point I am making is that perfection was part of the original deal, and I made it blatantly clear, and he accepted it.

As I said before, he got it 95% right, but not 100%. So despite him being this great professional that you so adamantly defend, even with a big $14,000 price, he still did not do it right, and screwed up a very simple thing that would have been extremely easy to work out during the bodywork phase. So I am not impressed with your "profession" when they cannot even get this right. If I would have done the bodywork, it would have been 100%. I guarantee it. Anything I have ever done reaches the level of perfection I want because I am not satisfied till it is. And by way, in my profession, I don't make excuses when I don't do my job, nor do I feel the need to brag about how well I do it and how experienced I am, so everyone should bow down to my superiority. Good work is self evident.

He is making it right, and its going to cost me another $1000 plus trailering it to and from his shop. I started this thread to get input on how would be the best way to get it right, and to see how that compared to what he was suggesting. I did NOT start this thread to listen to you and your inflated ego lecture me on the profession of a body man, nor do I think your insight is that special. It sounds more like turning painting and bodywork in voodoo magic only a few can attain. I understand there is an art to it, but not every bodyman / painter is good at it. But there also plenty of talented people who do not get paid to do it, that are capable of equal or better work than the "professionals".

You may or may not be good at what you do. I wouldn't know, but I sure as hell am not believing you DO know what you are doing just because you say so. People say lots of things on a forum or on the internet, doesn't mean anything. And frankly, your B.S. statements about giving someone an estimate of $1 to $1,000,000 proves you are one of these "professionals" that think the rest of us "professionals" are fools. You would never get my work with an attitude like that.

You can bloviate all day long about yourself, and I have found people who do this typically have insecurity issues. People who really are good at what they do have no need to brag about it. My car speaks for itself.

Not interested in any more discussion about this, so don't expect any further replies from me.

DUB

EGO, ARROGANCE,ATTITUDE and PASSION. YEP...I have them all....BUT...the difference between me and you is I can back up what I do. And as you may know....I have helped numerous DIY'ers in doing their Corvettes. Do I care if they follow my every word. NO...because it is up to them. But I am going to stop putting out information in the manner I do when I feel I need to for those people who appreciate it. If my responses seem abrasive...I cannot help that. Being direct... I feel is good regardless what you or anyone else think about how they feel about me.

And I generally have issues with people,like you on the forum who are hell bent on not accepting that someone is here to help. Sorry that I can not be what YOU want me to be.

And all I am doing here on the forum...regardless on how it is interpreted...is trying to make it so people do not have problems like I have experienced.

I hope you get your car to where you want it. And it would be wise to pay someone to do it like you are doing becasue with your emotions running so high...it might get messed up further and then we would have to deal with that.



DUB

vettebuyer6369

Pretty sure this conflict isn’t getting resolved any time soon.