AFR 205's + 228/228 113* = 500 RWHP!!
10-09-2009, 08:36 PM
#1
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
AFR 205's + 228/228 113* = 500 RWHP!!
Guys,
I spoke with Tony Mamo several times about where I wanted to be with a H/C combination for this motor, conservative yet stout with an ability to see 7000 rpm & not nose over.
His recommendations included a set of milled AFR 205's that he would invest some additional time porting/optimizing by hand (think you guys refer to this as "Mamofied 205's" in other builds I have seen), of course one of his ported FAST 90/ported LS2 TB combos, and Tony also recommended a custom grind single pattern cam due to the flow characteristics of the ported heads and the fact I wanted to also make as much low speed TQ as possible while not hurting the big HP numbers upstairs (yes...like most I wanted the have your cake and eat it to scenario!). I of course also included some of the other popular supporting bolt ons, LG Pros including 3" mufflers, Cadillac Racing Lifters, YT 1.7 roller rockers, EWP & UD pulley.
I installed the components a year ago, run it up on a Mustang dyno with good results.
I also spent the bulk of this summer learning how to tune via a multitude of emails, reading, watching DVD's, collaborating with a friend who has very in depth understanding of the tuning software. Very key component to bringing the entire package together! This made the dyno session very quick, the numbers were hit within a few runs.
As this tuning process went on all the classic clutch problems began to develop, and ultimately I had to replace that. In my quest for power I decided I should have 4:10 rear installed at the same time, an LS7 clutch, LS2 Flywheel, new Slave & remote bleeder. My thinking was the 4:10's would hopefully ease the life of the clutch.
In the same building I had the parts installed was a Dyno Dynamics eddy current dyno, and after finding out about an previous dyno day I decided to review some runs & met with some of the participants. They had a good turn out and certainly not a generous dyno with a bonestock C6Z06 making a best run of 441 RWHP which seems to be in line (or lower honestly) than most of the online results I have read about. Realistically, I was hoping for 475+ and was obviously pretty thrilled when we rolled a couple of runs in the high 490's and one run that just eeked out 500 RWHP!! I was also quite pleased with the low RPM torque output....most of the higher powered (typically big cam) stock displacement builds don't make those kinds of numbers under 4000 RPM's, at least from what I have observed pouring over the various results. And the torque (440 RWTQ) feels very good in the car btw....you can really feel it push you in the seat above 4K.
Needless to say there were several very impressed onlooker's as the runs took place, my Black 3X Vert had done proud!
Looks like Tony may have prescribed just the recipe I needed to try and maintain the best of both worlds. It wasn't a budget build by any stretch but I'm really happy about the results and wanted to share.
Here is copy of all the runs I made....I was also impressed how consistent they were (Tony....thanks for helping out with the dyno graph!)
Cheers,
Dale
I spoke with Tony Mamo several times about where I wanted to be with a H/C combination for this motor, conservative yet stout with an ability to see 7000 rpm & not nose over.
His recommendations included a set of milled AFR 205's that he would invest some additional time porting/optimizing by hand (think you guys refer to this as "Mamofied 205's" in other builds I have seen), of course one of his ported FAST 90/ported LS2 TB combos, and Tony also recommended a custom grind single pattern cam due to the flow characteristics of the ported heads and the fact I wanted to also make as much low speed TQ as possible while not hurting the big HP numbers upstairs (yes...like most I wanted the have your cake and eat it to scenario!). I of course also included some of the other popular supporting bolt ons, LG Pros including 3" mufflers, Cadillac Racing Lifters, YT 1.7 roller rockers, EWP & UD pulley.
I installed the components a year ago, run it up on a Mustang dyno with good results.
I also spent the bulk of this summer learning how to tune via a multitude of emails, reading, watching DVD's, collaborating with a friend who has very in depth understanding of the tuning software. Very key component to bringing the entire package together! This made the dyno session very quick, the numbers were hit within a few runs.
As this tuning process went on all the classic clutch problems began to develop, and ultimately I had to replace that. In my quest for power I decided I should have 4:10 rear installed at the same time, an LS7 clutch, LS2 Flywheel, new Slave & remote bleeder. My thinking was the 4:10's would hopefully ease the life of the clutch.
In the same building I had the parts installed was a Dyno Dynamics eddy current dyno, and after finding out about an previous dyno day I decided to review some runs & met with some of the participants. They had a good turn out and certainly not a generous dyno with a bonestock C6Z06 making a best run of 441 RWHP which seems to be in line (or lower honestly) than most of the online results I have read about. Realistically, I was hoping for 475+ and was obviously pretty thrilled when we rolled a couple of runs in the high 490's and one run that just eeked out 500 RWHP!! I was also quite pleased with the low RPM torque output....most of the higher powered (typically big cam) stock displacement builds don't make those kinds of numbers under 4000 RPM's, at least from what I have observed pouring over the various results. And the torque (440 RWTQ) feels very good in the car btw....you can really feel it push you in the seat above 4K.
Needless to say there were several very impressed onlooker's as the runs took place, my Black 3X Vert had done proud!
Looks like Tony may have prescribed just the recipe I needed to try and maintain the best of both worlds. It wasn't a budget build by any stretch but I'm really happy about the results and wanted to share.
Here is copy of all the runs I made....I was also impressed how consistent they were (Tony....thanks for helping out with the dyno graph!)
Cheers,
Dale
10-10-2009, 04:04 PM
#5
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Tony spec'd the cam based on what I wanted, he was very inquisitive prior to his recommendation
Cam spec's are 228/228 .588/.588 113 + 1 & degreed @ installation.
The sound is good for me, the LG Big 3 is very respectful of others. No cab resonance, does not set off alarms, send people & animals running for cover Blah Balh!
However as it idles @ 825 rpm, you listen twice.
Cam spec's are 228/228 .588/.588 113 + 1 & degreed @ installation.
The sound is good for me, the LG Big 3 is very respectful of others. No cab resonance, does not set off alarms, send people & animals running for cover Blah Balh!
However as it idles @ 825 rpm, you listen twice.
10-11-2009, 09:08 AM
#11
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
This I don't remember, it was discussed due to octane of 91.:o Maybe if Tony is watching he will remember.
Two other points I should mention:
I do run Cat's, I try not be an environmental assassin.
Also my original basis of this came from Tony's smaller cammed engine which produced very good repeatable number's.
That was my target with a margin that would make it easy!
Two other points I should mention:
I do run Cat's, I try not be an environmental assassin.
Also my original basis of this came from Tony's smaller cammed engine which produced very good repeatable number's.
That was my target with a margin that would make it easy!
10-11-2009, 09:46 AM
#12
Melting Slicks
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Find out what the correction factor # was. Also hit the track and see if it runs like a 500rwhp car which should have no problem trapping 132 or more in a Vette in Canada air.
Nice well put together combo!
Nice well put together combo!
10-11-2009, 10:06 PM
#14
Instructor
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cool...good results...tool around with the tooning in the 3k-4500 area you can smooth out a good portion of that mess...I dont like dyno dynamics for numbers...seems they can be F'ed with too much to make the customer happy but at least you had a c6z stocker to compare to. you mention running to 7k in your post...did you run it to 7k? or what is that mess at 6750 on your graph?
10-11-2009, 11:20 PM
#15
Former Vendor
cool...good results...tool around with the tooning in the 3k-4500 area you can smooth out a good portion of that mess...I dont like dyno dynamics for numbers...seems they can be F'ed with too much to make the customer happy but at least you had a c6z stocker to compare to. you mention running to 7k in your post...did you run it to 7k? or what is that mess at 6750 on your graph?
I think Dale's efforts on the "toon" speak for itself. Sure it could perhaps be a little smoother on the bottom but lets focus on whats important. I think the way you handled it was more abrasive than it needed to be. Coming from a guy that has spent one day here seemed out of line.
And the "mess" at 6750 is the dyno operator likely easing off the throttle instead of just quickly lifting and stabbing the clutch which is what I usually do.
-Tony
Last edited by Tony Mamo @ AFR; 10-12-2009 at 02:30 AM.
10-12-2009, 08:15 AM
#16
Le Mans Master
This being your fourth post since you signed on to be a member of this board (which was TODAY btw) is pretty priceless....
I think Dale's efforts on the "toon" speak for itself. Sure it could perhaps be a little smoother on the bottom but lets focus on whats important. I think the way you handled it was more abrasive than it needed to be. Coming from a guy that has spent one day here seemed out of line.
And the "mess" at 6750 is the dyno operator likely easing off the throttle instead of just quickly lifting and stabbing the clutch which is what I usually do.
-Tony
I think Dale's efforts on the "toon" speak for itself. Sure it could perhaps be a little smoother on the bottom but lets focus on whats important. I think the way you handled it was more abrasive than it needed to be. Coming from a guy that has spent one day here seemed out of line.
And the "mess" at 6750 is the dyno operator likely easing off the throttle instead of just quickly lifting and stabbing the clutch which is what I usually do.
-Tony
That guys been on here a little longer than a day. Good to see him back. He knows a thing or two about these cars.
10-12-2009, 08:37 AM
#17
Melting Slicks
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http://forums.corvetteforum.com/perf...lls-video.html
Here is a good thread showing what DD dynos will read if they aren't fudged. The torque numbers they put out are close to what SAE dynojets read but the HP is quite a bit lower. Once you correct it to "read" like a dynojet it boosts the HP and really pumps the tq up.
A local shop to me did this and the CF was 1.15 or something crazy high.
For those that don't watch the video the car made 494rwhp and 455rwtq on a dynojet SAE and only made 435rwhp on the DD using DD SAE.
Here is a good thread showing what DD dynos will read if they aren't fudged. The torque numbers they put out are close to what SAE dynojets read but the HP is quite a bit lower. Once you correct it to "read" like a dynojet it boosts the HP and really pumps the tq up.
A local shop to me did this and the CF was 1.15 or something crazy high.
For those that don't watch the video the car made 494rwhp and 455rwtq on a dynojet SAE and only made 435rwhp on the DD using DD SAE.
Last edited by Blu; 10-12-2009 at 08:42 AM.
10-12-2009, 08:39 AM
#18
Instructor
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This being your fourth post since you signed on to be a member of this board (which was TODAY btw) is pretty priceless....
I think Dale's efforts on the "toon" speak for itself. Sure it could perhaps be a little smoother on the bottom but lets focus on whats important. I think the way you handled it was more abrasive than it needed to be. Coming from a guy that has spent one day here seemed out of line.
And the "mess" at 6750 is the dyno operator likely easing off the throttle instead of just quickly lifting and stabbing the clutch which is what I usually do.
-Tony
I think Dale's efforts on the "toon" speak for itself. Sure it could perhaps be a little smoother on the bottom but lets focus on whats important. I think the way you handled it was more abrasive than it needed to be. Coming from a guy that has spent one day here seemed out of line.
And the "mess" at 6750 is the dyno operator likely easing off the throttle instead of just quickly lifting and stabbing the clutch which is what I usually do.
-Tony
10-12-2009, 09:42 AM
#19
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
I don't believe the tuning will every end, which is why I will probably never turn the LTFT's back on!
Tuners & Dyno's are of the same. Properly used with supporting knowledge amazing tools, in the end it is really the gains or losses that are really important.
I've always felt this part of the numbers game & politics are similiar.....tell me what I want to here, not the facts.
Were I'm located, 6 hours to the nearest dyno, not sure how close the non political dyno is.
The above is why I've had to learn (and learning) to tune, to many political tuners, I tried the Pro's.
I researched the DD before making my 8.5 hour trip to use it. I actually had a full day booked to tune & try to correct some drivability issue's that I wanted to perfect. Unfortunately some issue's were caused by the clutch & gear change so my dyno time turned into a troubleshooting day.
I doubt one hour was spent on the dyno including (including breaking in the new gears), the only tuning is posted here....four runs.
With my very limited knowledge I think the DD eddy current dyno is a very good/flexible package. Allow steady state tuning , most likely reflects my gear change in a positive fashion as it really is.
Thanks Tony for your knowledge, wisdom & professionalism in this build. the comment's that this is not a "budget" is very true. Not often in this game do we get what we pay for, this is an exception.
Tuners & Dyno's are of the same. Properly used with supporting knowledge amazing tools, in the end it is really the gains or losses that are really important.
I've always felt this part of the numbers game & politics are similiar.....tell me what I want to here, not the facts.
Were I'm located, 6 hours to the nearest dyno, not sure how close the non political dyno is.
The above is why I've had to learn (and learning) to tune, to many political tuners, I tried the Pro's.
I researched the DD before making my 8.5 hour trip to use it. I actually had a full day booked to tune & try to correct some drivability issue's that I wanted to perfect. Unfortunately some issue's were caused by the clutch & gear change so my dyno time turned into a troubleshooting day.
I doubt one hour was spent on the dyno including (including breaking in the new gears), the only tuning is posted here....four runs.
With my very limited knowledge I think the DD eddy current dyno is a very good/flexible package. Allow steady state tuning , most likely reflects my gear change in a positive fashion as it really is.
Thanks Tony for your knowledge, wisdom & professionalism in this build. the comment's that this is not a "budget" is very true. Not often in this game do we get what we pay for, this is an exception.
Last edited by CTD; 10-12-2009 at 12:56 PM.
10-12-2009, 01:18 PM
#20
Le Mans Master
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St. Jude Donor '12-'13-'14
cool...good results...tool around with the tooning in the 3k-4500 area you can smooth out a good portion of that mess...I dont like dyno dynamics for numbers...seems they can be F'ed with too much to make the customer happy but at least you had a c6z stocker to compare to. you mention running to 7k in your post...did you run it to 7k? or what is that mess at 6750 on your graph?
