LS1 NA questions, expectations, and recommendations?
#1
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
LS1 NA questions, expectations, and recommendations?
Hi folks,
I'm saving up and planning for an NA street build next year to wake up the Vette. Currently stock 1999 LS1 with a Magnaflow Catback. Scenario A for mods I want are a cold air intake (SLP Blackwing or K&N style), 1-7/8" catless Long Tube headers (Speed Engineering or bargain used long tubes), Brian Tooley LS1 Stage 3 Cam (or similar TSP grind) and Supporting Cam Package, and a rolling dyno tune. Scenario B is same as A but with additional mods; getting an LS6 or Dorman LS6 intake manifold and/or maybe swapping the cylinder heads to used LS6 heads or having my current LS1 heads ported. Reasons for the BTR Stage 3 is sound and driveability (don't want to lose midrange torque and streetability) and I'm open to changes.
My goals is just to have a liveable daily NA build with a semi-rough idle, and push somewhere north of 400whp, and be cost-efficient in the process. Just want to learn from others so I can budget wisely for it, and know where and where not to skimp. Also, I'd like to know what Scenario A and Scenario B could possibly land me in whp. Also, I'm not planning on any other engine supporting mods unless it comes highly recommended to do so as preventative measures. I'd like to keep my budget between $3-4k if possible. Thanks.
FYI: Mine is a 1999 FRC 6speed manual with 3.42 gears and Z51 package, with C6 Grandsport wheels and on 89k miles on the odo.
I'm saving up and planning for an NA street build next year to wake up the Vette. Currently stock 1999 LS1 with a Magnaflow Catback. Scenario A for mods I want are a cold air intake (SLP Blackwing or K&N style), 1-7/8" catless Long Tube headers (Speed Engineering or bargain used long tubes), Brian Tooley LS1 Stage 3 Cam (or similar TSP grind) and Supporting Cam Package, and a rolling dyno tune. Scenario B is same as A but with additional mods; getting an LS6 or Dorman LS6 intake manifold and/or maybe swapping the cylinder heads to used LS6 heads or having my current LS1 heads ported. Reasons for the BTR Stage 3 is sound and driveability (don't want to lose midrange torque and streetability) and I'm open to changes.
My goals is just to have a liveable daily NA build with a semi-rough idle, and push somewhere north of 400whp, and be cost-efficient in the process. Just want to learn from others so I can budget wisely for it, and know where and where not to skimp. Also, I'd like to know what Scenario A and Scenario B could possibly land me in whp. Also, I'm not planning on any other engine supporting mods unless it comes highly recommended to do so as preventative measures. I'd like to keep my budget between $3-4k if possible. Thanks.
FYI: Mine is a 1999 FRC 6speed manual with 3.42 gears and Z51 package, with C6 Grandsport wheels and on 89k miles on the odo.
Last edited by turabo87; 10-24-2018 at 01:05 PM. Reason: Clarification
#2
Pro
Cost me about $5500 installed and dyno tuned and landed 405/370. Nice increase but didn’t feel as much as I would have hoped to be honest. It has been super reliable though!
#3
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
What were your mods? Was this with labor? Let me clarify that my budget is parts budget and dyno; I plan to do all the labor of the parts removal and installation myself since I have access to a shop and tools.
#4
Pro
Mine included labor and dyno tune for heads and cam (including new oil pump, timing chain, lifters, etc) , I already had headers. The following year I added FAST 90/90 and gained almost 30 hp and tq (433/396). In two weeks I’m going big time and having A&A supercharger installed. My FAST 90/90 setup will then be up for sale in case your interested.
If your doing the labor yourself it shouldn’t cost you half what I paid! I wish I could do it myself but I want it done right ;-)
If your doing the labor yourself it shouldn’t cost you half what I paid! I wish I could do it myself but I want it done right ;-)
Last edited by RockyMtC5; 10-24-2018 at 04:25 PM.
#5
Pro
And to answer your question you should be able to hit 400rwhp with a good sized cam, headers and LS6 intake (or aftermarket). So less than $2K with tune if you do all the work!!
Last edited by RockyMtC5; 10-24-2018 at 04:28 PM.
#6
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
PS: I would consider your FAST 90/90 setup if price is right for added airflow. What would it include?
Last edited by turabo87; 10-26-2018 at 08:52 AM. Reason: Added post-note
#7
Pro
So, let me get this straight, you were still able to get to 430rwhp without swapping or porting the heads? You kept the stock LS1 head castings? That would be awesome news because I was planning to get all the parts and do all the work on a couple of days with the Vette in my brother's shop. Didn't want to take the heads out for porting due to the lead times and the Vette will be down too long while I wait on heads, and new heads are just too much cost for me, and used LS6 heads well there's always a risk with that.
PS: I would consider your FAST 90/90 setup if price is right for added airflow. What would it include?
PS: I would consider your FAST 90/90 setup if price is right for added airflow. What would it include?
Fast 90 setup would include ported FAST intake, ported 90mm (ls2) throttle body, FAST injectors and adapter harness to run the larger throttle body. This is on my car currently but will be removed in a few weeks
#8
Burning Brakes
You can get to 400 pretty easy. Not sure how livable/daily friendly a BTR3 cam is...that's subjective. It's a good size cam. I got there with a much smaller/friendlier 222/226 cam but with ported 243s. Definitely upgrade your LS1 intake. There's a lot of "while you're in there" parts like the oil pump, timing chain, balancer, lifters and trays, rocker trunnions, and obviously the valve springs and pushrods. Once you're done you'll make good power to close to 7k rpm but you're clutch hydraulics won't want to shift properly over 6k rpm, so keep that in mind.
If i had to do it all over again I would give serious thought to a supercharger. I'm thinking about it now and obviously rockymtc5 too. You would still want to do the exhaust and shore up the valve train (springs, pushrods, trunnion kit) but it would be just as streetable as it is today with a lot more power and a little more cost.
If i had to do it all over again I would give serious thought to a supercharger. I'm thinking about it now and obviously rockymtc5 too. You would still want to do the exhaust and shore up the valve train (springs, pushrods, trunnion kit) but it would be just as streetable as it is today with a lot more power and a little more cost.
#9
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
No, I also had new heads installed (ported 317 heads) with a smaller cam (226/228). If you don’t want to touch heads you will need a larger cam and long tube headers to hit 400rwhp. There are lots of folks with large cam only LS1 builds that hit 400 or more without touching heads.
Fast 90 setup would include ported FAST intake, ported 90mm (ls2) throttle body, FAST injectors and adapter harness to run the larger throttle body. This is on my car currently but will be removed in a few weeks
#10
Melting Slicks
You were spot on all along. I finally finished my build and tune. Stayed with the 853 heads, but went with all other supporting boltons including offroad long tubes, LS6 intake and cold air intake. I ended up with a mild cam (.585/.585/228/230). Made 397rwhp/397rwtq. My full results post is here https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...n-results.html
If you want the engine to last, use less than .600 lift (.585 is about as high as I would go)
And use the 'weakest' spring for that lift, usually PAC1218 is used with that cam (sloppy stage-2 from Jegs is like $250 or less) The whole cam+springs job can be done for $360
edit: Info added;
https://sites.google.com/site/sloppy...sloppy-stage-2
o tick all the boxes, cheap, effective, lower lift, good for all motor and turbo applications making it an easy go to.
sold as jegs, trickflow, elgin and more, available on amazon, ebay and more
now if you hunt around or wait for deals sometimes you can find this cam on ebay or jegs for 238
/ sloppy stage 2 on jegs
/ Sloppy stage 2 on amazon
/ on comp products website
/ sloppy stage 2 sold as trickflow cam on summit
Elgin Hydraulic Roller Camshaft - E1840PChev Gen III/IV (LS Series) 3-Bolt '97-Present
Adv. Duration: 283/286
Duration @ .050": 228/230
Lift: .585/.585
Lobe Separation: 112 LC
2200-7000, great mid range torque and power.
sold as jegs, trickflow, elgin and more, available on amazon, ebay and more
now if you hunt around or wait for deals sometimes you can find this cam on ebay or jegs for 238
/ sloppy stage 2 on jegs
/ Sloppy stage 2 on amazon
/ on comp products website
/ sloppy stage 2 sold as trickflow cam on summit
Elgin Hydraulic Roller Camshaft - E1840PChev Gen III/IV (LS Series) 3-Bolt '97-Present
Adv. Duration: 283/286
Duration @ .050": 228/230
Lift: .585/.585
Lobe Separation: 112 LC
2200-7000, great mid range torque and power.
Last edited by Kingtal0n; 01-17-2019 at 11:12 AM.
#11
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Good, Lift is below .600
If you want the engine to last, use less than .600 lift (.585 is about as high as I would go)
And use the 'weakest' spring for that lift, usually PAC1218 is used with that cam (sloppy stage-2 from Jegs is like $250 or less) The whole cam+springs job can be done for $360
edit: Info added;
https://sites.google.com/site/sloppy...sloppy-stage-2
How does it sound at 6L?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQlZ_rQ7P-s
That guy made 1000 RWHP on a dynojet with that cam, PAC1218 springs, in a stock 6L motor (turbo). Then it went 9's off a footbrake stall.
If you want the engine to last, use less than .600 lift (.585 is about as high as I would go)
And use the 'weakest' spring for that lift, usually PAC1218 is used with that cam (sloppy stage-2 from Jegs is like $250 or less) The whole cam+springs job can be done for $360
edit: Info added;
https://sites.google.com/site/sloppy...sloppy-stage-2
How does it sound at 6L?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQlZ_rQ7P-s
That guy made 1000 RWHP on a dynojet with that cam, PAC1218 springs, in a stock 6L motor (turbo). Then it went 9's off a footbrake stall.
Last edited by turabo87; 01-17-2019 at 11:51 AM.
#12
Melting Slicks
Yea, that's my cam, the Sloppy Mechanics Stage II. I got it from JEGS. I know I could've gone with single PAC springs and put less strain on the valvetrain, but I went the Scoggin Dickie dual valvesprings for some extra insurance. All my other valvetrain components were beefed up anyways (new BTR hardened 5/16" pushrods and new LS7 lifters and trays, and upgraded rocker arms with trunnion upgrade.) I don't know where you got your $360 cost from though lol. I think you missed an extra 0. I did the whole job myself, including the heads removal and spring replacement, cleaning valves...etc. Lot of extra crap too such as replacing oil pump and timing chain, the LS6 intake floor modification, changing my exhaust manifolds for long tube headers and offroad x pipe...etc. The whole cam job and cylinder head job is closer to $3000 job laborwise if you ask me, but I saved myself all the labor.
Heavier springs don't add insurance unless it actually requires them (insane ramps or very high rpm with solid lifters)
Heavier than necessary will add valvetrain wear and tear, reduce total mileage and increase the probability of having catastrophic failure.
#13
Burning Brakes
most people just do the cam/springs and go because they are doing it to a $400 engine (4.8/5.3/6.0) and don't want to risk anymore than that.
Heavier springs don't add insurance unless it actually requires them (insane ramps or very high rpm with solid lifters)
Heavier than necessary will add valvetrain wear and tear, reduce total mileage and increase the probability of having catastrophic failure.
Heavier springs don't add insurance unless it actually requires them (insane ramps or very high rpm with solid lifters)
Heavier than necessary will add valvetrain wear and tear, reduce total mileage and increase the probability of having catastrophic failure.
Last edited by Time for a C-5; 01-17-2019 at 01:49 PM.
#14
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
most people just do the cam/springs and go because they are doing it to a $400 engine (4.8/5.3/6.0) and don't want to risk anymore than that.
Heavier springs don't add insurance unless it actually requires them (insane ramps or very high rpm with solid lifters)
Heavier than necessary will add valvetrain wear and tear, reduce total mileage and increase the probability of having catastrophic failure.
Heavier springs don't add insurance unless it actually requires them (insane ramps or very high rpm with solid lifters)
Heavier than necessary will add valvetrain wear and tear, reduce total mileage and increase the probability of having catastrophic failure.
#15
Melting Slicks
Engines using PAC1218 will do 1000rwhp and go 50,000-100,000 miles.
There is no reason an engine with half the power needs something stiffer.
It just means more stress. Even at idle that cam has to push the lifter up and force that spring open... over and over and over. Even just to crank the motor everything will be under more stress with the stiffer spring.
I've seen failures due to high spring pressures across a slew of platforms, 4-cylinder 6-cylinder and 8 all do the same thing. The valve drops and the engine turns to trash.
If someone actually needed the high pressure spring for some kind of racing abuse its a necessity. But daily driven cars that sit at idle in traffic and go long distances on the highway are NOT suitable candidates for serious springs.
#16
Melting Slicks
I guess my setup which has been done thousands of times before will wear out and blow up soon then lmao. Dual valve springs gives extra me piece of mind at high RPMs. If one spring ever fails, at least there’s another one that prevents the valve from dropping and bending. That’s what I call catastrophic failure. I’ll take more wear for that extra piece of mind. Nothing against PAC singles or similar setups.
But surely you realize that with the extra pressure comes additional wear (you seem to understand that) just make the next leap and realize that additional wear occurs everywhere, including the guide, as the valve may wiggle side to side after so much bronze wear and escape the lock at high rpm (during an improper rev-limiter event is common), regardless of whether the springs themselves fail or not. In other words I don't think the springs breaking is the concern, its more likely wear and tear gradually loosens everything up and that is what causes the failure. In all the 4 and 6 cylinder motors that dropped valves with high spring pressure I've never seen the spring break as the cause.
#17
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
The extra spring is a great idea. Just not the extra pressure. It will probably be fine, I tend to be over dramatic and assume the worst case scenario.
But surely you realize that with the extra pressure comes additional wear (you seem to understand that) just make the next leap and realize that additional wear occurs everywhere, including the guide, as the valve may wiggle side to side after so much bronze wear and escape the lock at high rpm (during an improper rev-limiter event is common), regardless of whether the springs themselves fail or not. In other words I don't think the springs breaking is the concern, its more likely wear and tear gradually loosens everything up and that is what causes the failure. In all the 4 and 6 cylinder motors that dropped valves with high spring pressure I've never seen the spring break as the cause.
But surely you realize that with the extra pressure comes additional wear (you seem to understand that) just make the next leap and realize that additional wear occurs everywhere, including the guide, as the valve may wiggle side to side after so much bronze wear and escape the lock at high rpm (during an improper rev-limiter event is common), regardless of whether the springs themselves fail or not. In other words I don't think the springs breaking is the concern, its more likely wear and tear gradually loosens everything up and that is what causes the failure. In all the 4 and 6 cylinder motors that dropped valves with high spring pressure I've never seen the spring break as the cause.
SD7650:
k = 392lb/in
closed pressure = 160lbs@1.800"
actual max open pressure @ 0.585" lift (my application) = 229lbs + 160lbs = 389lbs.
PAC1218:
k = 313lb/in
closed pressure = 130lbs@1.800"
actual max open pressure @ 0.585" lift (my application) = 183lbs + 130lbs = 313lbs.
Will that extra 76 lbs at max lift cause me issues long term? I doubt it but undeniably I will see more wear long term. How much? Difficult to say. I'm still pretty happy with my decision and at .585 lift I'm not that concerned.
PS: That's some clean squat form, good job.
Last edited by turabo87; 01-17-2019 at 02:23 PM.
#18
Melting Slicks
thanks for posting the info for the springs!
Its more that I just want the info 'out there' because people tend to buy things that other people buy without really knowing why or what they are getting.
So I always emphasize "use the weakest spring for the application /etc" in any related thread just as a public announcement/service to educate
It wasn't directed at you or the specific springs you choose. You obviously knew what you are getting.
When the search comes up for others though, they will see the info and it becomes more of a choice, rather than just a blind purchase. Or at least lead them to investigate further about something which they may have never considered.
---
Squat bench dead- not sure I could live without it now. The flexibility and strength is a modification to the body, which is really a vehicle.
So we modify our vehicles through diet, training, get good sleep. Wake up, go outside and modify our other vehicles to make them faster as well ;D
Its more that I just want the info 'out there' because people tend to buy things that other people buy without really knowing why or what they are getting.
So I always emphasize "use the weakest spring for the application /etc" in any related thread just as a public announcement/service to educate
It wasn't directed at you or the specific springs you choose. You obviously knew what you are getting.
When the search comes up for others though, they will see the info and it becomes more of a choice, rather than just a blind purchase. Or at least lead them to investigate further about something which they may have never considered.
---
Squat bench dead- not sure I could live without it now. The flexibility and strength is a modification to the body, which is really a vehicle.
So we modify our vehicles through diet, training, get good sleep. Wake up, go outside and modify our other vehicles to make them faster as well ;D
#19
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
thanks for posting the info for the springs!
Its more that I just want the info 'out there' because people tend to buy things that other people buy without really knowing why or what they are getting.
So I always emphasize "use the weakest spring for the application /etc" in any related thread just as a public announcement/service to educate
It wasn't directed at you or the specific springs you choose. You obviously knew what you are getting.
When the search comes up for others though, they will see the info and it becomes more of a choice, rather than just a blind purchase. Or at least lead them to investigate further about something which they may have never considered.
---
Squat bench dead- not sure I could live without it now. The flexibility and strength is a modification to the body, which is really a vehicle.
So we modify our vehicles through diet, training, get good sleep. Wake up, go outside and modify our other vehicles to make them faster as well ;D
Its more that I just want the info 'out there' because people tend to buy things that other people buy without really knowing why or what they are getting.
So I always emphasize "use the weakest spring for the application /etc" in any related thread just as a public announcement/service to educate
It wasn't directed at you or the specific springs you choose. You obviously knew what you are getting.
When the search comes up for others though, they will see the info and it becomes more of a choice, rather than just a blind purchase. Or at least lead them to investigate further about something which they may have never considered.
---
Squat bench dead- not sure I could live without it now. The flexibility and strength is a modification to the body, which is really a vehicle.
So we modify our vehicles through diet, training, get good sleep. Wake up, go outside and modify our other vehicles to make them faster as well ;D