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Old 09-25-2009, 03:30 PM
  #41  
z06pdq
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Originally Posted by VetteInTampa View Post
whats wrong no one will loan you a pair of nuts?
what's wrong with you responding to this thread? oh yeah....."nuts."
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Old 09-25-2009, 03:36 PM
  #42  
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[QUOTE=z06pdq;1571617304][QUOTE=mhill0531;1571616686][LIST][*]Social Security - represents a transfer of wealth by force. As it stands, I will likely never collect anyway, so my participation is limited to me being robbed. I would love to not participate in this. Give me back my 6.75% and my employer theirs.
[*]Medicare/Medicaid - represents a transfer of wealth by force. Given my level of individual concern over my health care, and my diligence in providing for myself those things I need before those things I want, I have no problem opting out of this as well. I'll again happily take back what I pay into something I'll never use and likely won't exist when I get to the age I could.
[*]State Children's Health Insurance Programs (SCHIP) - represents a transfer of wealth by force. I have no children. So of course I'd like to opt out and get my money back for this.
[*]Police, Fire, and Emergency Services - I have the natural right to protect myself, my home and my belongins. As such, I can delegate that natural right to an outside agent and pay them to handle those natural rights for me. No problem here. My only gripe would be waste fraud and abuse of my taxes that go to things like golf outings, pensions, vacation funds and the like for those folks. That is wealth transfer by force, not a natural right I delegated. Additionally, all folks within the area these services cover have the same level of access to the services.
[*]US Postal Service - If FedEx, UPS and DHL could be used for letter service, I'd happily never use the post office again. As it is, the Internet will kill them without me firing a shot.
[*]Roads and Highways - I have a natural right to freedom, both of movement and association. I have the natural right to make movement and association easier for me, so long as I inur no obligation on another to provide it for me. Therefore, I can delegate that natural right to an outside agent and pay them to make my movement and association easier. Additionally, a road can be used by all citizens equally.
[*]Air Travel (regulated by the socialist FAA) - Air travel does not require the FAA. It requires a plane and someone to fly it. Remove that bureaucracy tomorrow, and I doubt air travel would change much.
[*]The US Railway System - It should have gone away a long time ago and rail transport should be completely privatized.
[*]Public Subways and Metro Systems - See my comments on roads.
[*]Public Bus and Lightrail Systems - See my comments on roads.
[*]Rest Areas on Highways - See my comments on roads.
[*]Sidewalks - See my comments on roads.
[*]All Government-Funded Local/State Projects - I am actually all for this. Get rid of every last one, and I bet 95% of them stay gone as nobody would miss them one bit except the folks with their hands in the taxpayer wallet. The other 5% that came back would cost a lot less I wager.
[*]Public Water and Sewer Services (goodbye socialist toilet, shower, dishwasher, kitchen sink, outdoor hose!) - I pay for my water and sewer directly as a purchased good/service. I do not pay for my neighbor's usage, nor they mine. As a community, we have water fountains at our parks, but that is at the municipal level and is voted for funding every year at city council. We privatized a lot of that, and as a result, our costs have gone down.
[*]Public and State Universities and Colleges - Fine. They long ago stopped being centers for knowledge transfer, and I think most could be shut down tomorrow with little ill effect.
[*]Public Primary and Secondary Schools - See my university comments. Just give the taxpayer their money back if they opt out.
[*]Sesame Street - Nick is better anyway. Give me my money back.
[*]Publicly Funded Anti-Drug Use Education for Children - Parents job. Give me my money back.
[*]Public Museums - Easily privatized. Give me my money back.
[*]Libraries - Were originally funded by private donation anyway, and the Internet houses more knowledge as it stands. I can easily forego the use of libraries. Give me my money back.
[*]Public Parks and Beaches - Land is land. It should not require bureaucracy to walk on. It also shouldn't cost anything to declare it public.
[*]State and National Parks - see comments on public parks
[*]Public Zoos - They all charge a fee and depend largely on provate donation. Fine and dandy to make it purely private or get rid of them. No sweat. In case you were curious, every animal in a zoo is not in its natural habitat, and they are put in cages for your amusement. Getting rid of zoos entirely would be fine by me.
[*]Unemployment Insurance - I pay for AFLAC, LTD and STD coverage out of my own pocket. Fine. Give my employer my share of what they pay into Unemployment back then.
[*]Municipal Garbage and Recycling Services - we pay the garbage collectors directly. So it's a private service that I purchase.
[*]Treatment at Any Hospital or Clinic That Ever Received Funding From Local, State or Federal Government (pretty much all of them) - I pay for my medical treatment as I go. I don't depend on charity. Fine, give me that money back as well.
so when you are in need of emergency treatment & bleeding all over the floor & you can't find your insurance card you will just pay cash?

taxes DO build a road that anyone can drive on. I'd like to see you go just one day without using all our Evil Government's services provided to you in this day & age. you wouldn't even make it to work.
You are aware that the Military is a constituent entity and the post and roads are as well?
Article I, Section Eight of the U.S. Constitution specifically authorizes Congress the enumerated power "to establish post offices and post roads." The U.S. Supreme Court later interpreted this clause to allow the creation of postal roads that were used for other concurrent purposes. The previous Articles of Confederation authorized only the creation of post offices but not post roads by the national government.[1] A law of 1838 designated all existing and future railroads as post roads.
Plus almost all states have state constitutional requirements for Education to certain levels.

All the other programs are just programs made up to get votes for politicians. Get rid of them.
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Old 09-25-2009, 03:46 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by z06pdq View Post
[
taxes DO build a road that anyone can drive on. I'd like to see you go just one day without using all our Evil Government's services provided to you in this day & age. you wouldn't even make it to work.
Read his responses again, and try to comprehend.

All you've shown here is more ignorance.
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Old 09-25-2009, 04:12 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by z06pdq View Post
taxes DO build a road that anyone can drive on. I'd like to see you go just one day without using all our Evil Government's services provided to you in this day & age. you wouldn't even make it to work.
You of course gloss over and misrepresent what I write. Let me try again, and pay attention this time:

Even in the most libertarian, small government society (like the one in my dreams), there are things that a government of, by and for the people can and should do. Our Constitution lays them out quite clearly. It's a very limited list, as it should be.

As individuals, we each have a natural right to defend our own lives. Since we have that natural right as individuals, we can delegate that right to a government of, by and for the people. That's why establishing an Army and Navy is in Article 1, Section 8.

As individuals, we DO NOT HAVE a natural right to the fruits of another person's labor. Got that? You do not have a natural right endowed by your Creator to my money or property. You and I can exchange goods and services, and a good, functioning government can establish and enforce the laws that protect each of us from wrongdoing by the other, but neither of us has a natural right to each others money or property. Since neither of us have that right, then neither does a government of, by and for the people. We cannot delegate a power we do not possess.

If this is disagreeable to you, then take it up with John Locke, Adam Smith, Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, since I am simply paraphrasing them.

Of the many things on the list you provided, some fall under the classification of the government performing a function writ large that is an extension of a right each individual possesses and can empower the government to carry out on our behalf. Police, fire, military, roads, etc. Others fall under simply taking money from one American and giving it to another who did not earn it nor provide a good or service in exchange for it. None of us has that right, and neither does a government of, by and for the people.

And it's still a straw man argument. The list included in the pledge mixes things that are criminal, things that are simple collectivism, and things that are legitimate functions of representational government of the people, incorrectly asserts that they are all homogeneous, and then proceeds to tear down the straw man construct.

Taxes paying for a road is not the same as taxes being handed to someone to sit around and have a pulse. You can make every sociological rationalization under the Sun, but they will never be equal in any possible Constitutional sense. But your fallacy depends on them being the same.

So here's how it looks symbolically:
  1. Person A has position X.
  2. Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
  3. Person B attacks position Y.
  4. Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

Keep it coming, but your assertion is a straw man argument.
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Old 09-25-2009, 04:16 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by mhill0531 View Post
  • Social Security - represents a transfer of wealth by force. As it stands, I will likely never collect anyway, so my participation is limited to me being robbed. I would love to not participate in this. Give me back my 6.75% and my employer theirs.
  • Medicare/Medicaid - represents a transfer of wealth by force. Given my level of individual concern over my health care, and my diligence in providing for myself those things I need before those things I want, I have no problem opting out of this as well. I'll again happily take back what I pay into something I'll never use and likely won't exist when I get to the age I could.
  • State Children's Health Insurance Programs (SCHIP) - represents a transfer of wealth by force. I have no children. So of course I'd like to opt out and get my money back for this.
  • Police, Fire, and Emergency Services - I have the natural right to protect myself, my home and my belongins. As such, I can delegate that natural right to an outside agent and pay them to handle those natural rights for me. No problem here. My only gripe would be waste fraud and abuse of my taxes that go to things like golf outings, pensions, vacation funds and the like for those folks. That is wealth transfer by force, not a natural right I delegated. Additionally, all folks within the area these services cover have the same level of access to the services.
  • US Postal Service - If FedEx, UPS and DHL could be used for letter service, I'd happily never use the post office again. As it is, the Internet will kill them without me firing a shot.
  • Roads and Highways - I have a natural right to freedom, both of movement and association. I have the natural right to make movement and association easier for me, so long as I inur no obligation on another to provide it for me. Therefore, I can delegate that natural right to an outside agent and pay them to make my movement and association easier. Additionally, a road can be used by all citizens equally.
  • Air Travel (regulated by the socialist FAA) - Air travel does not require the FAA. It requires a plane and someone to fly it. Remove that bureaucracy tomorrow, and I doubt air travel would change much.
  • The US Railway System - It should have gone away a long time ago and rail transport should be completely privatized.
  • Public Subways and Metro Systems - See my comments on roads.
  • Public Bus and Lightrail Systems - See my comments on roads.
  • Rest Areas on Highways - See my comments on roads.
  • Sidewalks - See my comments on roads.
  • All Government-Funded Local/State Projects - I am actually all for this. Get rid of every last one, and I bet 95% of them stay gone as nobody would miss them one bit except the folks with their hands in the taxpayer wallet. The other 5% that came back would cost a lot less I wager.
  • Public Water and Sewer Services (goodbye socialist toilet, shower, dishwasher, kitchen sink, outdoor hose!) - I pay for my water and sewer directly as a purchased good/service. I do not pay for my neighbor's usage, nor they mine. As a community, we have water fountains at our parks, but that is at the municipal level and is voted for funding every year at city council. We privatized a lot of that, and as a result, our costs have gone down.
  • Public and State Universities and Colleges - Fine. They long ago stopped being centers for knowledge transfer, and I think most could be shut down tomorrow with little ill effect.
  • Public Primary and Secondary Schools - See my university comments. Just give the taxpayer their money back if they opt out.
  • Sesame Street - Nick is better anyway. Give me my money back.
  • Publicly Funded Anti-Drug Use Education for Children - Parents job. Give me my money back.
  • Public Museums - Easily privatized. Give me my money back.
  • Libraries - Were originally funded by private donation anyway, and the Internet houses more knowledge as it stands. I can easily forego the use of libraries. Give me my money back.
  • Public Parks and Beaches - Land is land. It should not require bureaucracy to walk on. It also shouldn't cost anything to declare it public.
  • State and National Parks - see comments on public parks
  • Public Zoos - They all charge a fee and depend largely on provate donation. Fine and dandy to make it purely private or get rid of them. No sweat. In case you were curious, every animal in a zoo is not in its natural habitat, and they are put in cages for your amusement. Getting rid of zoos entirely would be fine by me.
  • Unemployment Insurance - I pay for AFLAC, LTD and STD coverage out of my own pocket. Fine. Give my employer my share of what they pay into Unemployment back then.
  • Municipal Garbage and Recycling Services - we pay the garbage collectors directly. So it's a private service that I purchase.
  • Treatment at Any Hospital or Clinic That Ever Received Funding From Local, State or Federal Government (pretty much all of them) - I pay for my medical treatment as I go. I don't depend on charity. Fine, give me that money back as well.
  • Medical Services and Medications That Were Created or Derived From Any Government Grant or Research Funding (again, pretty much all of them) - No problem. Contrary to your lie, most commonly used medications were privately funded, and the government either did nothing or hindered the progress of those drugs to market. When flu vaccines were private, over 20 companies made them and there was never a shortage. Since the government took over, only 3 companies make them, and shortages are the norm every year.
  • Socialist Byproducts of Government Investment Such as Duct Tape and Velcro (****-NASA Inventions) - If I buy a roll of duct tape, I paid 3M for their product in a perfectly voluntary exchange. How duct tape technology came into existence is irrelevant.
  • Use of the Internets, email, and networked computers, as the DoD's ARPANET was the basis for subsequent computer networking - again, the internet is now a giant collection of private entities. But to placate this, sure, I'll forego using .gov websites.
  • Foodstuffs, Meats, Produce and Crops That Were Grown With, Fed With, Raised With or That Contain Inputs From Crops Grown With Government Subsidies - end every farm subsidy tomorrow...PLEASE. By all means.
  • Clothing Made from Crops (e.g. cotton) That Were Grown With or That Contain Inputs From Government Subsidies - No problem. Most clothing anymore is made at textile plants in Malaysia and Indonesia.
  • If a veteran of the government-run socialist US military, I will forego my VA benefits and insist on paying for my own medical care - I already did forego that because I got out at 10 years, not 20. The other two benefits I get, the VA loan and GI Bill, were part of my employment contract, and given my 24 hour workday, 7 days a week and 365 days of each of the 5 years I was on a submarine, I was still poorly compensated overall. But I did earn what I got and did so by contract.
  • I will not tour socialist government buildings like the Capitol in Washington, D.C. - No problem.
  • I pledge to never take myself, my family, or my children on a tour of the following types of socialist locations, including but not limited to:
    1. Smithsonian Museums such as the Air and Space Museum or Museum of American History
    2. The socialist Washington, Lincoln, and Jefferson Monuments
    3. The government-operated Statue of Liberty
    4. The Grand Canyon
    5. The socialist World War II and Vietnam Veterans Memorials
    6. The government-run socialist-propaganda location known as Arlington National Cemetery
    7. All other public-funded socialist sites, whether it be in my state or in Washington, DC

    No sweat. Give me back my portion of federal taxes that pays for them.
  • I will urge my Member of Congress and Senators to forego their government salary and government-provided healthcare. - Sure. None of them would miss it since pork spending and lobbyist kickbacks pay 20-50x their salary anyway.
  • I will oppose and condemn the government-funded and therefore socialist military of the United States of America. - I have a right to defend myself, and can thereofre delegate that right to an outside agent. The US military protects the entire populace equally, and we pay them to do so of their own volition.
  • I will boycott the products of socialist defense contractors such as GE, Lockheed-Martin, Boeing, Northrop Grumman, General Dynamics, Raytheon, Humana, FedEx, General Motors, Honeywell, and hundreds of others that are paid by our socialist government to produce goods for our socialist army. - If they produce a good or service for the money they receive, and all Americans enjoy those goods or services equally in the pursuit of protecting America, then I have no problem with it. Problem here is that at least half our DoD spending goes to waste, fraud, and abuse in the form of proprietary contracts and kickbacks up to Capitol Hill.
  • I will protest socialist security departments such as the Pentagon, FBI, CIA, Department of Homeland Security, TSA, Department of Justice and their socialist employees. - Most agencies are redundant and/or represent miuse of power anyway. Get rid of 50%of the government workforce immediately. Sure. I can live with that. After that, what taxes I pay into that won't feel nearly as insulting.
  • Upon reaching eligible retirement age, I will tear up my socialist Social Security checks. - If they would let me opt out right now if I forego any future benefit, even forfeiting what I have contributed so far, I'd do cartwheels. I should get back what I paid into it, on a simple 0% return money back plan, but I won't quibble if I can stop paying into it right this minute.
  • Upon reaching age 65, I will forego Medicare and pay for my own private health insurance until I die. - see above and earlier comments on Medicare.

Got anymore?

What's funny is the long winded version of one of the Left's most common deflections just becomes a bigger straw man. The fallacious assumption put forth is that all government spending is the same in purpose and practice. It isn't.

If taxes build a road that every single person in the country can walk/drive on equally, that is not the same as taking money out of my wallet and simply putting it into someone else's wallet. The road is an extension of a natural right that I delegated to the government of the people. There is no natural right to other peoples' money, so any government directed wealth transfers have no natural law or moral basis.

But keep 'em coming gospodin! Your Marxist heroes would be proud.

How do you like playing with fire? Ownage to the Nth degree.
Oh ya, your little rebuttles are comical as well.
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Old 09-25-2009, 04:43 PM
  #46  
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Addressing some of your (z06pdq) pithy comments directly:
I could live with opting out. thing is, if you have a catastrophic illness that wipes you out financially you will need assistance. how is it fair that you can opt out & possibly some day be taking advantage of the program?
Straw man argument that assumes I would a) take advantage as you hypothesize, or b) agree that the government has responsibility to keep people alive. Neither is true.
so, it's just "charity?" some people look at our children as our future. you don't like investing in our future?
No, it isn't charity, and I never said it was. I said it was wealth transfer by force. Charity has both a voluntary and satisfaction component included. Taxes taken by force for wealth distribution have neither. And I think investing in the future is fine. If I had children, I would invest everything I could into theirs, never once expecting anyone esle to help me. My kids, my job. Sad that you think your kids are my job too.
I find it hard to believe that you think you could do as good a job defending your home & security as well trained & equipped officers & firefighters.
I don't think that, and never said anywhere that I did. I said I have a right to defend my life and property, and since I have that right, I can delegate it to my government to hire professionals to help me do so. Police and firefighters are those professionals of which I speak, and in whom I have entrusted my right to defend myself and my property. Reading comprehension does not seem to be your strong suit.
internet hasn't killed them yet. still costs lees than a Coke to mail a package damn near anywhere.
Never said it had killed them, I said it will. Give it time.
so privatize our roads? more tolls? not sure what you mean.
Still no reading comprehension. Let me spoon feed you some more...

I have a right to move about and to make that easier on myself, so long as I do not violate the rights of others or obligate them in doing so. Since I have that right, I can delegate the right to my government to hire people to build roads that my neighbors and I can all make use of. Infrastructure improvement (post roads) is enumerated as a power in the Constitution. And their construction is largely privatized already, since the government often contracts the jobs out.

Those were just the ones I felt important to smack down before I log off for the day. I love arguing with big government collectivists.
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Old 09-25-2009, 04:54 PM
  #47  
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Now we see why folks like the OP run and hide from the adult threads.
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Old 09-25-2009, 05:01 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by SeaFive View Post
Now we see why folks like the OP run and hide from the adult threads.
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Old 09-25-2009, 06:53 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by theandies View Post
How do you like playing with fire? Ownage to the Nth degree.
Oh ya, your little rebuttles are comical as well.
translation: those are some powerful nuts that I swing on. I have nothing to add to the debate.
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Old 09-25-2009, 06:55 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by z06pdq View Post
I have nothing to add to the debate.
As if your starting this thread did
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Old 09-25-2009, 06:56 PM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by z06pdq View Post
translation: those are some powerful nuts that I swing on. I have nothing to add to the debate.
You didn't have much to begin with and it was all downhill after the OP.
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Old 09-25-2009, 06:57 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by z06pdq View Post
translation: those are some powerful nuts that I swing on.
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Old 09-25-2009, 07:05 PM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by mhill0531 View Post
Addressing some of your (z06pdq) pithy comments directly:

Straw man argument that assumes I would a) take advantage as you hypothesize, or b) agree that the government has responsibility to keep people alive. Neither is true.
so we don't need an army? gotcha!
No, it isn't charity, and I never said it was. I said it was wealth transfer by force. Charity has both a voluntary and satisfaction component included. Taxes taken by force for wealth distribution have neither. And I think investing in the future is fine. If I had children, I would invest everything I could into theirs, never once expecting anyone esle to help me. My kids, my job. Sad that you think your kids are my job too.
I raised my kids decades ago. "Sad" that you think you are above helping less fortunate folks out. I tend to forget the mantra you guys live by "I got mine. screw everyone else."
I don't think that, and never said anywhere that I did. I said I have a right to defend my life and property, and since I have that right, I can delegate it to my government to hire professionals to help me do so. Police and firefighters are those professionals of which I speak, and in whom I have entrusted my right to defend myself and my property. Reading comprehension does not seem to be your strong suit.
Never said it had killed them, I said it will. Give it time.
Still no reading comprehension. Let me spoon feed you some more...
please tell me who pays these "professionals" who dedicate their lives to protecting you.
I have a right to move about and to make that easier on myself, so long as I do not violate the rights of others or obligate them in doing so. Since I have that right, I can delegate the right to my government to hire people to build roads that my neighbors and I can all make use of. Infrastructure improvement (post roads) is enumerated as a power in the Constitution. And their construction is largely privatized already, since the government often contracts the jobs out.
so we all take advantage of our government built & maintained roads. ok.
Those were just the ones I felt important to smack down before I log off for the day. I love arguing with big government collectivists.
you may love it, but you leave a lot open to debate. enjoy your commute to your home [protected by our brave police & firemen] via our government highways. pop open a brewski that you are reasonably sure is safe to drink [thanks to gov.] & turn on Fox & listen to them tell you that government is evil.
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Old 09-25-2009, 07:13 PM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by z06pdq View Post
you may love it, but you leave a lot open to debate. enjoy your commute to your home [protected by our brave police & firemen] via our government highways. pop open a brewski that you are reasonably sure is safe to drink [thanks to gov.] & turn on Fox & listen to them tell you that government is evil.
At least Fox will be in good company.
“My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government.”--Thomas Jefferson.

“To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.” -- Thomas Jefferson

"A government is like fire, a handy servant, but a dangerous master" George Washington
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Old 09-25-2009, 07:16 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by z06pdq View Post
translation: those are some powerful nuts that I swing on. I have nothing to add to the debate.
That actually is funny
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Old 09-25-2009, 07:21 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by VITE1 View Post
At least Fox will be in good company.
“My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government.”--Thomas Jefferson.

“To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.” -- Thomas Jefferson

"A government is like fire, a handy servant, but a dangerous master" George Washington
"There's no ho like the one you own" Thomas Jefferson
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Old 09-25-2009, 07:22 PM
  #57  
VetteInTampa
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Originally Posted by z06pdq View Post
"there's no ho like the one i own" barrack obama
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Old 09-25-2009, 07:54 PM
  #58  
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You act as if it wasnt for gov we would have nothing. First of all everything that you listed was thrown upon us, I didnt vote for that ****, and dont want nor use them. Everything that is involved with the gov is control, thats all they want. The healthcare bill is a perfect example, the majority of americans dont want it, yet the house still intends on pushing it forward. I thought the gov stood for the people, so I guess our word doesnt meen **** anymores huuh? Just pushing the houses personal agenda, and what THEY think is best for us.

This country has been run perfectly with very little gov for how many years? Everytime the gov gets bigger and grasps more control our CHOICE is taken away.

All the bailouts that have been givven out starting with FDR.

Here is another fun fact for oversized gov;
"From 1977 to 2004, according to tax foundation data, US oil companies cleared $630 billion after taxes while paying $518 billion in federal and state corporate taxes at an average of 45%. Over the same period, an additional $1.34 trillion in excise fuel taxes was collected from consumers by the oil companies and turned over to various governments".

"March 2008, no new refinery has been built in the US since 1983. In 1982 the US economy was served by 301 refineries. By 2007, the number had dwindled to 149. Productivity has kept output steady over the years at 17 million barrels a day. But the US economy has grown 125%".

You can thank the government for the jobs that have flocked away from this country, you can thank the gov for the soon to be 14,000,000,000,000 debt that they have thrown upon us, you can thank the gov for the ever increasing prices of products from regulations and inflation.

Buy Mark R. Levin's book; Liberty and Tyranny
You may learn something.
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Old 09-25-2009, 08:24 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by z06pdq View Post
"There's no ho like the one you own" Thomas Jefferson
Yet another example of how the current administration got into office.
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Old 09-25-2009, 08:35 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by LowFlight View Post
To the OP:

What are you...fcking 12 years old?
Why insult 12 year olds everywhere?
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