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Itís Water Vapor, Not the CO2!

 
Old 12-14-2016, 03:58 PM
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BlueFinn
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Default Itís Water Vapor, Not the CO2!

Yes, but…but….but….

For those here that keep saying this as a denial to anthropogenic climate change, here’s what the American Chemical Society has to say.

https://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/c...t-the-co2.html

It’s true that water vapor is the largest contributor to the Earth’s greenhouse effect. On average, it probably accounts for about 60% of the warming effect. However, water vapor does not control the Earth’s temperature, but is instead controlled by the temperature. This is because the temperature of the surrounding atmosphere limits the maximum amount of water vapor the atmosphere can contain. If a volume of air contains its maximum amount of water vapor and the temperature is decreased, some of the water vapor will condense to form liquid water. This is why clouds form as warm air containing water vapor rises and cools at higher altitudes where the water condenses to the tiny droplets that make up clouds.


The greenhouse effect that has maintained the Earth’s temperature at a level warm enough for human civilization to develop over the past several millennia is controlled by non-condensable gases, mainly carbon dioxide, CO2, with smaller contributions from methane, CH4, nitrous oxide, N2O, and ozone, O3. Since the middle of the 20th century, small amounts of man-made gases, mostly chlorine- and fluorine-containing solvents and refrigerants, have been added to the mix. Because these gases are not condensable at atmospheric temperatures and pressures, the atmosphere can pack in much more of these gases. Thus, CO2 (as well as CH4, N2O, and O3) has been building up in the atmosphere since the Industrial Revolution when we began burning large amounts of fossil fuel.

If there had been no increase in the amounts of non-condensable greenhouse gases, the amount of water vapor in the atmosphere would not have changed with all other variables remaining the same. The addition of the non-condensable gases causes the temperature to increase and this leads to an increase in water vapor that further increases the temperature. This is an example of a positive feedback effect. The warming due to increasing non-condensable gases causes more water vapor to enter the atmosphere, which adds to the effect of the non-condensables.

There is also a possibility that adding more water vapor to the atmosphere could produce a negative feedback effect. This could happen if more water vapor leads to more cloud formation. Clouds reflect sunlight and reduce the amount of energy that reaches the Earth’s surface to warm it. If the amount of solar warming decreases, then the temperature of the Earth would decrease. In that case, the effect of adding more water vapor would be cooling rather than warming. But cloud cover does mean more condensed water in the atmosphere, making for a stronger greenhouse effect than non-condensed water vapor alone – it is warmer on a cloudy winter day than on a clear one. Thus the possible positive and negative feedbacks associated with increased water vapor and cloud formation can cancel one another out and complicate matters. The actual balance between them is an active area of climate science research.
John

Last edited by BlueFinn; 12-14-2016 at 03:59 PM.
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Old 12-14-2016, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by BlueFinn View Post
Yes, butÖbutÖ.butÖ.

For those here that keep saying this as a denial to anthropogenic climate change, hereís what the American Chemical Society has to say.

https://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/c...t-the-co2.html


John
You:

Me:
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Old 12-14-2016, 04:06 PM
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Still no causal relationship shown between atmospheric CO2 levels and planetary temperature.

Until that relationship is demonstrated (which it has NOT), the "CO2 is the cause" whine is pure bullshit

Last edited by KenHorse; 12-14-2016 at 04:06 PM.
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Old 12-14-2016, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by KenHorse View Post
Still no causal relationship shown between atmospheric CO2 levels and planetary temperature.

Until that relationship is demonstrated (which it has NOT), the "CO2 is the cause" whine is pure bullshit
I hope it is proven, so we have a viable reason to make liberals stop breathing.
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Old 12-14-2016, 04:09 PM
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So how much would cloud cover offset the greenhouse effect?
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Old 12-14-2016, 04:33 PM
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63 340HP
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Originally Posted by BlueFinn View Post
Yes, butÖbutÖ.butÖ.

For those here that keep saying this as a denial to anthropogenic climate change, hereís what the American Chemical Society has to say.

https://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/c...t-the-co2.html


John
John,

Summarize your "greenhouse effect for dummies" link...

Thus the possible positive and negative feedbacks associated with increased water vapor and cloud formation can cancel one another out and complicate matters. The actual balance between them is an active area of climate science research.
Is MMGW settled science?


John, or any of you special MMGW Physics experts... :

​​​​​​​What happens to the earth surface radiation in the active wavelengths of atmospheric CO2 when water vapor condenses on the earth surface?
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Old 12-14-2016, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by VETTRLZ View Post
You:

Me:
His posts might be meaningful & informative to someone that gives a **** about GW. Or at least someone who is as hysterically obsessed by it. Personally, I believe in GW, and I still don't give a ****.
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Old 12-14-2016, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Gordon Shumway View Post
His posts might be meaningful & informative to someone that gives a **** about GW. Or at least someone who is as hysterically obsessed by it. Personally, I believe in GW, and I still don't give a ****.
The positive effects from the use of fossil fuels far outweighs the harm of GW. I would never want to live in a pre 1900 world.
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Old 12-14-2016, 06:26 PM
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No ****, Sherlock! But governments can't control water vapor.
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Old 12-14-2016, 07:40 PM
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Can't tax clouds but can tax CO2.......
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Old 12-14-2016, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by KenHorse View Post
Can't tax clouds but can tax CO2.......
Great, you just gave them another excuse.
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Old 12-14-2016, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by KenHorse View Post
Still no causal relationship shown between atmospheric CO2 levels and planetary temperature.

Until that relationship is demonstrated (which it has NOT), the "CO2 is the cause" whine is pure bullshit
Lol, that's the whole point of the science, showing that c02 emissions are increasing the temperature. You're basically saying "until I believe what you say, I'm not going to believe what you say."
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Old 12-14-2016, 08:23 PM
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This is because the temperature of the surrounding atmosphere limits the maximum amount of water vapor the atmosphere can contain. If a volume of air contains its maximum amount of water vapor and the temperature is decreased, some of the water vapor will condense to form liquid water. This is why clouds form as warm air containing water vapor rises and cools at higher altitudes where the water condenses to the tiny droplets that make up clouds.
Yes, but it snowballs - as it gets warmer, the air can hold more moisture, which increases the greenhouse effect, which makes things warmer, increasing the moisture, and so on. Conversely, as it gets colder, and moisture condenses out, causing both albedo-increasing clouds and reducing the greenhouse effect, which makes it colder, condensing out even more moisture, and so on.

So we see that in addition to water vapor being a far more effective greenhouse gas, it also serves a positive feedback to changes in either direction.

Odd that they couldn't connect the dots that way. Almost like they had an agenda and these facts didn't fit it.
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Old 12-14-2016, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by RandomTask View Post
Lol, that's the whole point of the science, showing that c02 emissions are increasing the temperature. You're basically saying "until I believe what you say, I'm not going to believe what you say."
No I'm saying there has been no demonstration of a causal relationship, only computer modeling.
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Old 12-15-2016, 04:12 AM
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ACS has done like a lot of so called groups. It's become a leftist's agenda house organ. No surprise here.
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Old 12-15-2016, 04:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Randy G. View Post
ACS has done like a lot of so called groups. It's become a leftist's agenda house organ. No surprise here.
Al Gore is as are his lemmings....
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Old 12-15-2016, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by KenHorse View Post
Still no causal relationship shown between atmospheric CO2 levels and planetary temperature.

Until that relationship is demonstrated (which it has NOT), the "CO2 is the cause" whine is pure bullshit
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Old 12-15-2016, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by danziger View Post
So how much would cloud cover offset the greenhouse effect?
Nobody really knows. The programmers have often changed the value of that effect in their models. I doubt BlueFin will admit that.
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Old 12-15-2016, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by KenHorse View Post
Can't tax clouds but can tax CO2.......
Don't bet on it. Some idiot liberal in Maryland tried to tax the rain.
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Old 12-15-2016, 07:49 AM
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The OP is simply off his meds again. He forgets to take his dementia medicine and he forgets what he has parked in his garage. It's very sad.
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