They truly are quite amazing structures. I love the architecture and stained glass. To think these took as many as a hundred years to build is jaw dropping.What is the name of the church adjacent the Notre Dame with the story of the Apocalypse in stained glass ?
It's called the Sainte-Chapelle, Paris, but I did not go in it. I should've. It's so dark in Notre Dame that you can barely see anything and it was overcast that day so the stained glass windows lost much of their effect.
It's called the Sainte-Chapelle, Paris, but I did not go in it. I should've. It's so dark in Notre Dame that you can barely see anything and it was overcast that day so the stained glass windows lost much of their effect.
Thanks. The day my wife and went to Sainte-Chapelle it was overcast and as we entered to sun broke through the clouds, magnificent. Put it on your bucket list.
On this we'll have to agree to disagree. We wouldn't survive as a species if we were irrational more often than not. And it's clear from the trends in the charts I posted earlier that people are finding modernity, rationality and science more appealing than religion. As for religion explaining how to act in the world, it has done a fine job of teaching racism, homophobia, subordination of women, intolerance of other religions, and a litany of other ills.
Amen to that! I don't pray to "God" when I go to sleep I talk to myself and think about how I can be a better person or more accomplished in the day to follow. I don't believe in a god created by men...that presumably created men. I also feel that people can believe in whatever they choose to believe in. As long as it doesn't hurt anyone nor attempt to pass judgment upon others that don't share in their belief. I believe people should have the choice to either be their own guiding light and find their own way or for those who find comfort in joining groups or looking to a "higher power" for guidance they should do so.
What I'm not cool with is the way religions offer acceptance of prejudices towards others like mentioned above. If religion makes people better humans than some religious folks were really messed up prior to finding their "God".... and many still are.
I have an amazing idea....just don't be a jerk and life will turn out pretty well for most. As will death. Because if I am wrong and your ""God" is real. He's gonna judge me a heck of let less than most religious folks will.
Also love cathedrals. Some of the most breath taking architecture on this planet.
Amen to that! I don't pray to "God" when I go to sleep I talk to myself and think about how I can be a better person or more accomplished in the day to follow. I don't believe in a god created by men...that presumably created men. I also feel that people can believe in whatever they choose to believe in. As long as it doesn't hurt anyone nor attempt to pass judgment upon others that don't share in their belief. I believe people should have the choice to either be their own guiding light and find their own way or for those who find comfort in joining groups or looking to a "higher power" for guidance they should do so.
What I'm not cool with is the way religions offer acceptance of prejudices towards others like mentioned above. If religion makes people better humans than some religious folks were really messed up prior to finding their "God".... and many still are.
I have an amazing idea....just don't be a jerk and life will turn out pretty well for most. As will death. Because if I am wrong and your ""God" is real. He's gonna judge me a heck of let less than most religious folks will.
I reject the notion that one of the purposes of religion is to provide a framework for morality. Religion holds no patent on morality and the secular fields of philosophy and government have been dealing with issues of morality and ethics for three millennia. In the past century, psychology has sought to define it as well.
Also love cathedrals. Some of the most breath taking architecture on this planet.
The cathedrals of the Middle Ages were as much about civic pride as they were about religion. There was competition among cities to display their wealth and craftsmanship to the rest of Europe. Nations as we think of them today didn't really exist. A city like Chartres might be ruled by a French king for a number of decades and an English king for several more. The countries of Germany and Italy didn't exist until the 19th century. It was the wealthy burghers and guilds who really ran the cities. They were the ones who conceived of and financed the cathedrals. The money certainly didn't come from Rome. They were out for themselves.
I reject the notion that one of the purposes of religion is to provide a framework for morality. Religion holds no patent on morality and the secular fields of philosophy and government have been dealing with issues of morality and ethics for three millennia. In the past century, psychology has sought to define it as well.
The cathedrals of the Middle Ages were as much about civic pride as they were about religion. There was competition among cities to display their wealth and craftsmanship to the rest of Europe. Nations as we think of them today didn't really exist. A city like Chartres might be ruled by a French king for a number of decades and an English king for several more. The countries of Germany and Italy didn't exist until the 19th century. It was the wealthy burghers and guilds who really ran the cities. They were the ones who conceived of and financed the cathedrals. The money certainly didn't come from Rome. They were out for themselves.
I reject the notion that one of the purposes of religion is to provide a framework for morality. Religion holds no patent on morality and the secular fields of philosophy and government have been dealing with issues of morality and ethics for three millennia. In the past century, psychology has sought to define it as well.
The cathedrals of the Middle Ages were as much about civic pride as they were about religion. There was competition among cities to display their wealth and craftsmanship to the rest of Europe. Nations as we think of them today didn't really exist. A city like Chartres might be ruled by a French king for a number of decades and an English king for several more. The countries of Germany and Italy didn't exist until the 19th century. It was the wealthy burghers and guilds who really ran the cities. They were the ones who conceived of and financed the cathedrals. The money certainly didn't come from Rome. They were out for themselves.
Yet look at the direction of the left that stands against Christianity. What is it that they uphold and pander, death of full term children, perversion and deviancy, stealing wealth, hypocrisy and double standards, attacks on morality and even ethics. I reject the notion it is just a coincidence.
Yet look at the direction of the left that stands against Christianity. What is it that they uphold and pander, death of full term children, perversion and deviancy, stealing wealth, hypocrisy and double standards, attacks on morality and even ethics. I reject the notion it is just a coincidence.
When the Left wages war against the Lord, I am all in on God!
Amen to that! I don't pray to "God" when I go to sleep I talk to myself and think about how I can be a better person or more accomplished in the day to follow. I don't believe in a god created by men...that presumably created men. I also feel that people can believe in whatever they choose to believe in. As long as it doesn't hurt anyone nor attempt to pass judgment upon others that don't share in their belief. I believe people should have the choice to either be their own guiding light and find their own way or for those who find comfort in joining groups or looking to a "higher power" for guidance they should do so.
What I'm not cool with is the way religions offer acceptance of prejudices towards others like mentioned above. If religion makes people better humans than some religious folks were really messed up prior to finding their "God".... and many still are.
I have an amazing idea....just don't be a jerk and life will turn out pretty well for most. As will death. Because if I am wrong and your ""God" is real. He's gonna judge me a heck of let less than most religious folks will.
Also love cathedrals. Some of the most breath taking architecture on this planet.
Nice civil thread gents.
That's a pretty broad brush you're painting with there, friend, 'cuz I've never experienced that sort of atmosphere in the churches I've attended in my lifetime. Are there some bad groups of people out there (Westboro Baptist, some mosques, some Priests, some athiests), yes. But don't paint the majority of people by the occasional rotten apples.
I've never met you in person, but I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt until I have good reason to do otherwise. I, and I assume others, would appreciate the same consideration from you.
That's a pretty broad brush you're painting with there, friend, 'cuz I've never experienced that sort of atmosphere in the churches I've attended in my lifetime. Are there some bad groups of people out there (Westboro Baptist, some mosques, some Priests, some athiests), yes. But don't paint the majority of people by the occasional rotten apples.
I've never met you in person, but I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt until I have good reason to do otherwise. I, and I assume others, would appreciate the same consideration from you.
There are millions of people that were brought up through religion that practice homophobia and subordination of women...millions. You also should not paint with a broad brush based on the half dozen or so churches you've attended. Especially when you know full well that Judaism, Christianity and Islam all TEACH this.
You also prove my point with the "some bad apples" comment. Yeah there are bad apples everywhere, but many if not most religions do not accept homosexuality and treat it as a sin. What gives anyone the right to pass this judgement onto others they do not know? Frankly it's no one's damned bussiness or right to tell religious lGBQ people they are sinners because of their sexual preference....period.
Last edited by Johnny Hardcore; 02-10-2019 at 04:52 PM.
Actually, I love cathedrals. I couldn't tell you how many I've been to. Westminster Abbey, Salisbury, Canterbury, St. Paul's in London, Cologne, Mont St. Michel, Notre Dame, Santa Maria del Mar in Barcelona, Sagrada Familia, St. Peter's in Rome, Sienna, Pisa, and the Duomo in Florence from off the top of my head. I'll see a few more this summer in Germany, Austria and the Czech Republic.
Santa Maria del Mar, Barcelona
Sienna
Canterbury
View from the top of St. Paul's
Salisbury
Mont St. Michel
Very magnificent places. To think people built them so long ago and had those kind of skills to build those places. It would be cool to see all that.
There are millions of people that were brought up through religion that practice homophobia and subordination of women...millions. You also should not paint with a broad brush based on the half dozen or so churches you've attended. Especially when you know full well that Judaism, Christianity and Islam all TEACH this.
You also prove my point with the "some bad apples" comment. Yeah there are bad apples everywhere, On that, we certainly agree. but many if not most religions do not accept homosexuality and treat it as a sin. What gives anyone the right to pass this judgement onto others they do not know? You don't know me, but you appear to be passing a judgement on me nonetheless. Frankly it's no one's damned bussiness or right to tell religious lGBQ people they are sinners because of their sexual preference....period.
Man, lotta anger in your post here, partner. I thought we might be able to have a reasonably calm discussion here, but it appears there's a lack of interest on your part. It's your call.
Man, lotta anger in your post here, partner. I thought we might be able to have a reasonably calm discussion here, but it appears there's a lack of interest on your part. It's your call.
No anger by any means. I don't think I even used one exclamation point nor did I direct any derogatory comments at you directly. If it came across as an attack on you personally that was not my intention. I was just stating what I know to be fact based on the teachings of religion when it comes to LGBQ folk and in some instances the treatment of women. The one thing that the organized religions have in common is the mistreatment of LGBQ.
In my opinion it's offensive and largely due to antiquated thinking by people in our modern times living their lives based off of books written by men thousands of years ago. I know many LGBQ people both personally and professionally and they are no better or worse than anyone else I know. They should be accepted for how they are as humans...not by their choices in significant others. To pre judge people due to sexual preference is anything but devine.
No anger by any means. I don't think I even used one exclamation point nor did I direct any derogatory comments at you directly. If it came across as an attack on you personally that was not my intention. I was just stating what I know to be fact based on the teachings of religion when it comes to LGBQ folk and in some instances the treatment of women. The one thing that the organized religions have in common is the mistreatment of LGBQ.
In my opinion it's offensive and largely due to antiquated thinking by people in our modern times living their lives based off of books written by men thousands of years ago. I know many LGBQ people both personally and professionally and they are no better or worse than anyone else I know. They should be accepted for how they are as humans...not by their choices in significant others. To pre judge people due to sexual preference is anything but devine.
LBGQ is like 1% of the Population. I doubt they have suffered that many times. Most of it is whining and advancing their agenda.
They should be accepted for how they are as humans...not by their choices in significant others. To pre judge people due to sexual preference is anything but devine.
LBGQ is like 1% of the Population. I doubt they have suffered that many times. Most of it is whining and advancing their agenda.
LGBQ make up for 4% of the US population. US citizens make up for 4% of the world's population. We are only 4% in the grand scheme of things yet there's a **** ton of whining and complaining going on about how shitty things are around here. Based on your perspective you should stop whining because you shouldn't count
LGBQ make up for 4% of the US population. US citizens make up for 4% of the world's population. We are only 4% in the grand scheme of things yet there's a **** ton of whining and complaining going on about how shitty things are around here. Based on your perspective you should stop whining because you shouldn't count
Your argument is intellectually dishonest, the "grand scheme" as you call it for us non-globalists is the USA.
Last edited by FourPennyDoug; 02-11-2019 at 09:15 PM.
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02-09-2019, 09:59 PM
To quote a buddy, getting knee deep in here again. 
