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1,000 scientists go public with doubts on evolution

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1,000 scientists go public with doubts on evolution

 
Old 02-11-2019, 09:39 AM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by ifitgoesfast View Post
So that’s your interpretation of this from page 156 in The Darwin’s Descent of Man?



Is any of the below incorrect?

1. Civilized races of man will exterminate and replace the savage races of man.

2. At the same time anthropomorphous (human, form) apes will be exterminated.

3. The degree of civilization will broaden the gap between races of man moreso than between caucasian man and baboon, and even more than between negro or Australian and the gorilla.

What is the mechanism which will have the more civilized races of caucasian and his nearest races exterminate and replace the savage races of man which Darwin designates as negro and Austrailian?
In order.

1 - Civilized races of man have almost completely replaced savage races of man. I think only one tribe that could be called savages, using his word, is left, and they are on an island off of India.

2 - We have not exterminated anthropomorphous apes, but they sure are dying off quickly.

3 - Not what he's is saying at all, and you think I'm spinning things lol.

None of your interpretation speaks to the greater thesis. Read the sentences that precede the paragraph in question. Specifically this one …

The great break in the organic chain between man and his nearest allies, which cannot be bridged over by any extinct or living species, has often been advanced as a grave objection to the belief that man is descended from some lower form.

Darwin is trying to dismiss the criticism of his theory by those who point at what appears to be a gap in evolution. He continues by saying …

Breaks often occur in all parts of the series, some being wide, sharp and defined, others less so in various degrees; as between the orang and its nearest allies—between the Tarsius and the other Lemuridæ—between the elephant, and in a more striking manner between the Ornithorhynchus or Echidna, and all other mammals. But these breaks depend merely on the number of related forms which have become extinct.

So whats happening here is, Darwin is pointing out what appear to be evolutionary gaps in other species, then and only then, he speaks to what will appear as gaps in the evolutionary chain of Man, which is where the paragraph in question starts by saying …

At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilised races of man will almost certainly exterminate, and replace, the savage races throughout the world

In that sentence he sets forth the conditions for what will appear as a large gap. The next sentence, he elaborates on conditions that will enlarge the same potential gap. He does so by saying …

At the same time the anthropomorphous apes, as Professor Schaaffhausen has remarked,18 will no doubt be exterminated.

Regardless of whether anthropomorphous apes are exterminated or not isn't relevant, the point is they wont be present, therefore making the evolutionary gap seem wider. He makes this clear in the first part of the next sentence, which reads …

The break between man and his nearest allies will then be wider,

The next part of the same sentence explains why it will seem wider by saying …

for it will intervene between man in a more civilized state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon.

In other words the gap will be positioned between future civilized man and a lower form of ape that presumably will not be extinct, such as a baboon. He makes this even more clear by detailing the presence of what he believes to be an existing gap. He does this as the sentences continues …

instead of as now between the negro or Australian and the gorilla.

There is no other way to interpret this language. The meaning is very clear. The only place he goes wrong as it relates to the meaning is by saying a baboon is a lower form of ape. But, even that has an explanation by his own words in the previous page. A baboon has a tail, gorillas do not. Im sure he would not have made this mistake had dna tests been available.
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Old 02-11-2019, 09:54 AM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by PatternDayTrader View Post
In order.

1 - Civilized races of man have almost completely replaced savage races of man. I think only one tribe that could be called savages, using his word, is left, and they are on an island off of India.

2 - We have not exterminated anthropomorphous apes, but they sure are dying off quickly.

3 - Not what he's is saying at all, and you think I'm spinning things lol.

None of your interpretation speaks to the greater thesis. Read the sentences that precede the paragraph in question. Specifically this one …

The great break in the organic chain between man and his nearest allies, which cannot be bridged over by any extinct or living species, has often been advanced as a grave objection to the belief that man is descended from some lower form.

Darwin is trying to dismiss the criticism of his theory by those who point at what appears to be a gap in evolution. He continues by saying …

Breaks often occur in all parts of the series, some being wide, sharp and defined, others less so in various degrees; as between the orang and its nearest allies—between the Tarsius and the other Lemuridæ—between the elephant, and in a more striking manner between the Ornithorhynchus or Echidna, and all other mammals. But these breaks depend merely on the number of related forms which have become extinct.

So whats happening here is, Darwin is pointing out what appear to be evolutionary gaps in other species, then and only then, he speaks to what will appear as gaps in the evolutionary chain of Man, which is where the paragraph in question starts by saying …

At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilised races of man will almost certainly exterminate, and replace, the savage races throughout the world

In that sentence he sets forth the conditions for what will appear as a large gap. The next sentence, he elaborates on conditions that will enlarge the same potential gap. He does so by saying …

At the same time the anthropomorphous apes, as Professor Schaaffhausen has remarked,18 will no doubt be exterminated.

Regardless of whether anthropomorphous apes are exterminated or not isn't relevant, the point is they wont be present, therefore making the evolutionary gap seem wider. He makes this clear in the first part of the next sentence, which reads …

The break between man and his nearest allies will then be wider,

The next part of the same sentence explains why it will seem wider by saying …

for it will intervene between man in a more civilized state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon.

In other words the gap will be positioned between future civilized man and a lower form of ape that presumably will not be extinct, such as a baboon. He makes this even more clear by detailing the presence of what he believes to be an existing gap. He does this as the sentences continues …

instead of as now between the negro or Australian and the gorilla.

There is no other way to interpret this language. The meaning is very clear. The only place he goes wrong as it relates to the meaning is by saying a baboon is a lower form of ape. But, even that has an explanation by his own words in the previous page. A baboon has a tail, gorillas do not. Im sure he would not have made this mistake had dna tests been available.
Explain why he calls caucasians the more civilized race and negros and Australians savage races, and why the gap widens.
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Old 02-11-2019, 09:55 AM
  #63  
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Default It's as simple as Black and White! ;)

Evolution! African Black Later evolves into European White.
The mutant, or Neanderthal, White proliferated due to there being less sunlight in Europe to absorb vitamin D.
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Old 02-11-2019, 09:57 AM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by ifitgoesfast View Post

IOW, PatternDayTrader, Darwin distinguishes between civilized races of man and savage races of man, claiming it is this degree of civilized culture which will in a matter of centuries benefit by natural selection civilized races over savage races, broadening which races are more evolved. He claims the civilized culture of certain races will result in more advanced evolution than savage races of negro and Australian who he argues will be left behind. He compares the gap between man and ape to the broadening gap between civilized races and savage races where the mechanism is civilized culture.

Disagree?
Speaking to the edits.

Yeah I totally disagree. He never mentions culture, he never mentions benefit, he never mentions the effect of civilized man on evolution, and he is not comparing one gap to another gap, he is only speaking to where a gap will appear, or seem to appear in the evolutionary chain.
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Old 02-11-2019, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by johnglenntwo View Post
Evolution! African Black Later evolves into European White.
The mutant, or Neanderthal, White proliferated due to there being less sunlight in Europe to absorb vitamin D.
Exhibit A
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Old 02-11-2019, 10:00 AM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by PatternDayTrader View Post
Speaking to the edits.

Yeah I totally disagree. He never mentions culture, he never mentions benefit, he never mentions the effect of civilized man on evolution, and he is not comparing one gap to another gap, he is only speaking to where a gap will appear, or seem to appear in the evolutionary chain.
Does he not contrast civilized (which I believe is synonymous) vs savage races? Does he not cite caucasians as civilized and negro and Australian races as savage?
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Old 02-11-2019, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by ifitgoesfast View Post
Explain why he calls caucasians the more civilized race and negros and Australians savage races, and why the gap widens.
The only possible explanation is because he had to use his eyes to make the determination. You can only see behavior with your eyes. On one side he see himself reading and writing, and on the other side who knows what he sees, probably hunter - gatherer communities.
At no time is he speaking to a widening gap, only to where a gap will appear, and because of its positioning, will seem wider.

Last edited by PatternDayTrader; 02-11-2019 at 10:04 AM.
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Old 02-11-2019, 10:09 AM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by ifitgoesfast View Post
Does he not contrast civilized (which I believe is synonymous) vs savage races? Does he not cite caucasians as civilized and negro and Australian races as savage?
No, he is not trying to contrast civilized vs savage. He is speaking to what appears as a gap in evolution. The operative word is "appears". If you had only your eyes to judge, you could say that same thing about todays Man by looking at a sophisticated intellectual and a ghetto thug.
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Old 02-11-2019, 10:10 AM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by PatternDayTrader View Post
The only possible explanation is because he had to use his eyes to make the determination. You can only see behavior with your eyes. On one side he see himself reading and writing, and on the other side who knows what he sees, probably hunter - gatherer communities.
At no time is he speaking to a widening gap, only to where a gap will appear, and because of its positioning, will seem wider.
This is where we diverge. I read Darwin’s passages as a confusion as to the mechanism. Darwin believes there is both biological mutations, and degrees of civilization (selection) which play a part, and it seems this is the basis for why he believes the savage races will become extinct. You don’t see the latter.
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Old 02-11-2019, 10:12 AM
  #70  
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Why would Darwin argue any of the primates would become extinct, as well as savage races of humans with only the civilized being superior thriving genetically?
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Old 02-11-2019, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by ifitgoesfast View Post
so you evaded
no.

I asked you a simple question because if you don’t know the difference between contextual use of that word, there’s no point in continuing this insipid conversation with you.

So do you know the answer or are you going to make another ineffectual rant without basis in fact?

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Old 02-11-2019, 10:15 AM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by ifitgoesfast View Post
This is where we diverge. I read Darwin’s passages as a confusion as to the mechanism. Darwin believes there is both biological mutations, and degrees of civilization (selection) which play a part, and it seems this is the basis for why he believes the savage races will become extinct. You don’t see the latter.
Well that's fine, but you sure cant draw that conclusion from the paragraph in question. He not talking about any of that. He is speaking directly to those who question the theory based on what appears as a gap in evolution. He makes this very clear in the preceding paragraphs.
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Old 02-11-2019, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by ifitgoesfast View Post
Why would Darwin argue any of the primates would become extinct, as well as savage races of humans with only the civilized being superior thriving genetically?
He is not arguing that. He is predicting that if it occurs, it will appear to leave behind an evolutionary gap between that time in the future, and a time in the past.
By the way, he never mentions genetics.

Last edited by PatternDayTrader; 02-11-2019 at 10:23 AM.
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Old 02-11-2019, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by ifitgoesfast View Post
Exhibit A
Neandrathal bred genes strengthened and Whites live longer! Racist! Racist!
(But blacks are generally physically stronger from that more primative background carried through by their enslavement breeding.)
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Old 02-11-2019, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Over9K View Post
Oh wow... excrement has evolved to type excrement...
Another carefully thought-out scientific response.

Did you answer exam questions in a similar manner in junior high school?

Did you nominate yourself for the Nobel Prize in Stupidity? Congratulations, you've won.
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Old 02-11-2019, 12:52 PM
  #76  
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Originally Posted by ifitgoesfast View Post
So Darwin’s theory “black” people are cliser to apes than “white” people is spot on?
People are apes.
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Old 02-11-2019, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Walford View Post
People are apes.
The modern version … Lol
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Old 02-11-2019, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Walford View Post
People are apes.
Yep. For those who slept through high-school biology:

Kingdom Animalia: All animals.
Phylum Chordata: Animals that have a number of structures in common, particularly the notochord, a rodlike structure that forms the body’s supporting axis.
  • Subphylum Vertebrata: Animals with backbones.
  • Superclass Tetrapoda: Four-footed vertebrates.
Class Mammalia: Tetrapods with hair. Other classes of the vertebrata are Pisces (fish), Amphibia (frogs), Aves (birds), and Reptilia (scaly things).
Order Primates: Mammals with more highly developed brains, flexible hips and shoulders, and prehensile hands and feet (able to grasp).
  • Superfamily Hominoidea: Apes (chimpanzees, gorillas, orangutans, humans).
Family Hominidae: Great apes, including humans.
Genus Homo: The human species is the only surviving species of our genus, though this genus included several species in the evolutionary past.
Species Sapiens:
https://www.dummies.com/education/sc...-homo-sapiens/
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Old 02-11-2019, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Kingtal0n View Post
in the case of the eye, the majority of those 1 of the "1800 improvements" is not going to confer a sizable change to the success of an organism, especially one of micro-scale.
Nor is it going to matter if the organism dies before transferring it's new genetic materials.
So if you consider that 'winning the lottery' is similar to each 1 of "1800 improvements" at random, and that each winning organism happens to produce offspring with that 1 change (another lottery), and the lineage doesn't die off (resetting the trend of genetic heritages, erasing the lottery 'wins'). Its quite a leap that even with 1,500,000 years of trials for an infinite number of single celled organisms that there would be a string of 1800 lottery winners in one family that survived all that time, from which all multi cellular life is derived from.
Or something like that
The term for this idea is 'irreducible complexity". The idea that a particular organ is so complex that it could not have evolved naturally.

The eye is the classic example. However, most research has shown that the eye and other complex organs are not "irreducibly complex" and could have developed via evolutionary processes. It was also shown to be incorrect in a court of law in the Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District trial.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0406231032.htm
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Old 02-11-2019, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by VegasJen View Post
Never said they didn't. I happen to believe the theory of evolution is at least partially correct. Evidence all around. Not saying there's anything inherently wrong with the theory, it's just not 100%. We're still learning.
I'm curious...where do you think the gaps are in the current Theory of Evolution?
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