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Electric Cars - Help Me understand

 
Old 03-14-2019, 09:51 PM
  #201  
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Originally Posted by Krystal View Post
It's not that anyone is LYING.....but they sure seem to be giving you at BEST just 1/2 the bill they are really paying. Energy SUPPLY at 9-10Cents per KwH is just about where we are here in New Hampshire but that only tells half the costs. The delivery charge per Kwh basically doubles that price tag. A deregulated electric supply has given us competitive pricing and it's a welcomed development but it on;y applies to the supply side of the bill. Your legacy energy company still wants it's slice of the pie to maintain the grid and it's attachment as a path to get power to your home and it's in the bill too but it's NOT in those prices you put up for an illustration of competing energy suppliers.





I could provide you a copy of one of our own bills from before the solar installation for illustration of how it works but I imagine that shouldn't' be necessary given this one is pretty easy to comprehend for how it works. There are also silly charges to pad the bill too. Meter charge of $12.95. Taxes charged per KwH are not exactly insignificant.





The bottom line though........I couldn't find a single State out of the 50 that pays anything even remotely close to 3.9cents you talked about in that first post. Even your figures quoted in this last post shows JUST the supply side at 7.9 cents per KwH best from a 3rd party supplier in Texas. The problem with using that quote is found in how the delivery charge is left out entirely. I don't know what that adds to the bill in Texas but I'd pretty surprised if it doesn't just about double the over all price tag in Texas same it does here in my state. Current Residents of Huston TX would love to get off so very easily with a 7.9cent KwH price I'm sure.

If you're gonna quote prices you gotta include it all or you're making an apples to oranges comparison. Gotta include the delivery per Kwh and ad it in with the Supplier cost.
Just to clarify, the fees I mentioned earlier on my bill, are there and the exact same amount regardless of my energy usage.

The kWh charge I mentioned is the amount my bill goes up and down based on actual energy usage.

I pulled those numbers from a file I keep for my solar panel calculations. However it's certainly possible I misunderstood.
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Old 03-15-2019, 09:45 AM
  #202  
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Originally Posted by Road machine View Post
Then you must have a major problem with the oil subsidies that have been going on since 1916.....not to mention all the money and lives we have spent to protect oil in places that hate the USA.

As to your point about where power comes from, I think you assume too much about people....People buying these cars do a lot of research into how much it will add to their electric bill. At least all the guys I know have.
what do oil subsidies look like? Does the government write checks to the oil companies ?
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Old 03-15-2019, 10:18 AM
  #203  
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Originally Posted by suprspooky View Post
I don't think the Rural Elec. program would have been funded by capitalism, it's what created the system that brings low cost food to the US consumer, capitalism is great for short term gains, not so great for big picture things. I'm also gonna guess that a lot of tax $ went into the Oil industry.
REA is only but a tiny percentage of the total power distributed, and even as a public assistance program, it took huge advantage of technological advances invented by profit seeking capitalists. Read up on the development of electricity and you will see the fathers of industry often acting more benevolent than any government agency.

And your guess about the oil industry also seems to be dead nuts wrong as that was originally a fringe business paid for by speculators that could undercut the cost of Coal.

Capitalism is good for you, go ahead and give it a try some time. No other system results in so much incentive for folks to use the full extent of their their capability.
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Old 03-15-2019, 10:28 AM
  #204  
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Originally Posted by sstonebreaker View Post
There, fixed your post for you.
Just a heads up. On this forum is not acceptable to edit someone's quote and leave their name on it.
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Old 03-15-2019, 10:41 AM
  #205  
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Originally Posted by Krystal View Post
I guess that leaves just one question for you.

Have you installed solar on your home yet?

I don't know what your available incentives are in Australia or what local installers charge to do a system..... but here in the States the current cost of instalation minus the Federal tax credit makes it very easy to justify in New Hampshire where we pay just about EXACTLY what you're paying for electricity.
Good thing we don't all invest like you, or the system would be broke.

Fuel cost for utilities to generate electricity amount to only about 6% of a normal (non-solar) power bill. That is the ONLY cost the utility saves from having your solar array connected to the grid, and in fact the fuel you are displacing by mid day sunny periods isn't at peak demand, and isn't available at all during the night time, so I would estimate the value of power you are contributing cannot be greater than 3% of your normal power bill. Everything you are collecting beyond that is incentive money harvested from your neighbors with normal power bills.

Then there are the practical questions about the installations of these systems, it remains largely a cottage industry. Many installers are not tradesmen from conventional training but journalism and sociology majors convinced they are saving the planet while scoffing at such pedestrian concerns like increased snow load due to solar panel entrapment, the effect of hundreds of new roof penetrations, wind uplift and loading of the conventional trusses and electrical circuit protection (some fire departments are forced to carry tarps to blanket solar panels installed with no method of disconnecting). I personally would not choose to have that amateur junk installed on my home.

Then there is the question of solar cell quality and who is building the actual panels. 98% seem to originate from China, known for exaggerated longevity claims and market dumping to harvest American dollars. Estimates of the practical service life of solar include 20 year lifetimes just sufficient to pay off the initial investment (that includes a lot of subsidy).

So yes it is a fun monetary game for those who choose to ignore physical or moral concerns, but indeed there are many more questions to consider than merely "Have you installed solar on your home yet?"



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Old 03-15-2019, 11:41 AM
  #206  
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Originally Posted by jasper711 View Post
Good thing we don't all invest like you, or the system would be broke.

Fuel cost for utilities to generate electricity amount to only about 6% of a normal (non-solar) power bill. That is the ONLY cost the utility saves from having your solar array connected to the grid, and in fact the fuel you are displacing by mid day sunny periods isn't at peak demand, and isn't available at all during the night time, so I would estimate the value of power you are contributing cannot be greater than 3% of your normal power bill. Everything you are collecting beyond that is incentive money harvested from your neighbors with normal power bills.

Then there are the practical questions about the installations of these systems, it remains largely a cottage industry. Many installers are not tradesmen from conventional training but journalism and sociology majors convinced they are saving the planet while scoffing at such pedestrian concerns like increased snow load due to solar panel entrapment, the effect of hundreds of new roof penetrations, wind uplift and loading of the conventional trusses and electrical circuit protection (some fire departments are forced to carry tarps to blanket solar panels installed with no method of disconnecting). I personally would not choose to have that amateur junk installed on my home.

Then there is the question of solar cell quality and who is building the actual panels. 98% seem to originate from China, known for exaggerated longevity claims and market dumping to harvest American dollars. Estimates of the practical service life of solar include 20 year lifetimes just sufficient to pay off the initial investment (that includes a lot of subsidy).

So yes it is a fun monetary game for those who choose to ignore physical or moral concerns, but indeed there are many more questions to consider than merely "Have you installed solar on your home yet?"
OMG! Let's hit one point first. My system isn't on my roof so if it wants to spontaneously burst into flames.......I'll just call my insurance guy about the claim I'll be making shortly and then maybe just grab a lawn chair and some marshmallows to cook over the flames in the field where our array is situated.

More seriously though? That's about as convoluted and twisted into knots as I've seen done to attempt to make a case for the LOSING side of an argument in this forum.....ever.

The Decision to do a Solar Array at your home or business.......is really VERY SIMPLE to work out.

In a lot of places it still makes for a VERY POOR decision to go this route. I'll quickly acknowledge that as a FACT I can illustrate very easily in the ROI projection that will tell me if it's just going to take far to long to see the "PAY OFF" on the investment of Capital that might well be put to better use.

In my case though, here in New Hampshire.....the numbers tell a very POSITIVE STORY. The reason for that is almost entirely found in our higher that average electricity prices.

No need to twist it all up in knots and try to make some moral judgement on the decision.

First thing you should understand about me going into this.

I DON'T GIVE A RAT'S BEHIND about the "green energy argument". If people want to believe that's why I did it......fine, who cares?.......but I'm not going to confirm that if asked about.

Second up.......I don't care where the panels were made, in my case it was South Korea that produced them. I have no problem with sourcing of any product or service from any part of the world. Not sure why you do.....but hey, it's a free country and you are certainly entitled to have and stick to some warped idea of morality in BUYING AMERICAN ONLY!

I find your attempt to inject a Guilt trip over what is YOUR MORAL ARGUMENT to be nothing short of something I just laugh at for the pure lunacy of the idea you might expect it could ever "Bump me" to seeing Solar as poor decision concerning those concerns you have.

This one is as easy as it gets.

IF......the numbers work! You do it.

IF.....the numbers don't work vs alternative use of the Capital you could deploy to another more productive use.......you don't do it.

For me the numbers worked out very well because in New Hampshire the price of electricity is high enough to see a really good ROI given the current environment.

I really like the idea that if I view this as a Capital investment that is generating a tax free monthly return.......the investment looks even better. (The $150-250/month average bill this system relieves me of would be very difficult to generate elsewhere) The lion's share of the problem here boils down to taxes. The challenge would be to find the aproximately $2400/year AFTER TAX income on a a pretty small $20,000 investment that could match up and also have the inflation protection that would escalate that required return over time. After-all.....5 years out, 10 years out and beyond......it's pretty reasonable to expect Eversource (Our local electric utility) will be charging more than it does today per KWH.


Bottom line?

Hey, keep you moral ideals in mind if you must......but your argument falls on deaf ears with me.

This decision is VERY SIMPLE in my view.

You either own in a State where it makes GOOD SENSE or you don't and it's all in the numbers......anything else is just noise I tune out.

You're overthinking this and twisting yourself in knots unnecessarily, IMO..

Last edited by Krystal; 03-15-2019 at 11:43 AM.
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Old 03-15-2019, 12:04 PM
  #207  
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Originally Posted by Krystal View Post
OMG! Let's hit one point first. My system isn't on my roof so if it wants to spontaneously burst into flames.......I'll just call my insurance guy about the claim I'll be making shortly and then maybe just grab a lawn chair and some marshmallows to cook over the flames in the field where our array is situated.

More seriously though? That's about as convoluted and twisted into knots as I've seen done to attempt to make a case for the LOSING side of an argument in this forum.....ever.

The Decision to do a Solar Array at your home or business.......is really VERY SIMPLE to work out.

In a lot of places it still makes for a VERY POOR decision to go this route. I'll quickly acknowledge that as a FACT I can illustrate very easily in the ROI projection that will tell me if it's just going to take far to long to see the "PAY OFF" on the investment of Capital that might well be put to better use.

In my case though, here in New Hampshire.....the numbers tell a very POSITIVE STORY. The reason for that is almost entirely found in our higher that average electricity prices.

No need to twist it all up in knots and try to make some moral judgement on the decision.

First thing you should understand about me going into this.

I DON'T GIVE A RAT'S BEHIND about the "green energy argument". If people want to believe that's why I did it......fine, who cares?.......but I'm not going to confirm that if asked about.

Second up.......I don't care where the panels were made, in my case it was South Korea that produced them. I have no problem with sourcing of any product or service from any part of the world. Not sure why you do.....but hey, it's a free country and you are certainly entitled to have and stick to some warped idea of morality in BUYING AMERICAN ONLY!

I find your attempt to inject a Guilt trip over what is YOUR MORAL ARGUMENT to be nothing short of something I just laugh at for the pure lunacy of the idea you might expect it could ever "Bump me" to seeing Solar as poor decision concerning those concerns you have.

This one is as easy as it gets.

IF......the numbers work! You do it.

IF.....the numbers don't work vs alternative use of the Capital you could deploy to another more productive use.......you don't do it.

For me the numbers worked out very well because in New Hampshire the price of electricity is high enough to see a really good ROI given the current environment.

I really like the idea that if I view this as a Capital investment that is generating a tax free monthly return.......the investment looks even better. (The $150-250/month average bill this system relieves me of would be very difficult to generate elsewhere) The lion's share of the problem here boils down to taxes. The challenge would be to find the aproximately $2400/year AFTER TAX income on a a pretty small $20,000 investment that could match up and also have the inflation protection that would escalate that required return over time. After-all.....5 years out, 10 years out and beyond......it's pretty reasonable to expect Eversource (Our local electric utility) will be charging more than it does today per KWH.


Bottom line?

Hey, keep you moral ideals in mind if you must......but your argument falls on deaf ears with me.

This decision is VERY SIMPLE in my view.

You either own in a State where it makes GOOD SENSE or you don't and it's all in the numbers......anything else is just noise I tune out.

You're overthinking this and twisting yourself in knots unnecessarily, IMO..
"Twisting myself in knots", is merely a few observations on doing these things professionally for the past 38 years. What happens is someone proposes a solar installation for a legitimate agency, the decision to proceed is made on emotional basis, and after several mis-starts I then get called in to address all the code infractions and practical maintenance considerations that are quietly brushed under the rug in residential installs. After capturing perhaps only half of the standards required of non-green projects, the project is usually in serious jeopardy.

Solar systems include consideration of structure, space, aesthetics, power system protection, fire codes, and yes, even moral bidding requirements. If that is noise to you, then I see you have no choice but to tune it out.

The point remains germane that if we all had solar systems, our power bills could be reduced no more than 3%. It is not sustainable technology.

(but no reason to feel bad if you are taking advantage of a bad gov. program; I utilized Obama's cash for clunkers even though I thought it was terrible)

Last edited by jasper711; 03-15-2019 at 12:35 PM.
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Old 03-15-2019, 01:08 PM
  #208  
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Originally Posted by jasper711 View Post
"Twisting myself in knots", is merely a few observations on doing these things professionally for the past 38 years. What happens is someone proposes a solar installation for a legitimate agency, the decision to proceed is made on emotional basis, and after several mis-starts I then get called in to address all the code infractions and practical maintenance considerations that are quietly brushed under the rug in residential installs. After capturing perhaps only half of the standards required of non-green projects, the project is usually in serious jeopardy.

Solar systems include consideration of structure, space, aesthetics, power system protection, fire codes, and yes, even moral bidding requirements. If that is noise to you, then I see you have no choice but to tune it out.

The point remains germane that if we all had solar systems, our power bills could be reduced no more than 3%. It is not sustainable technology.

(but no reason to feel bad if you are taking advantage of a bad gov. program; I utilized Obama's cash for clunkers even though I thought it was terrible)
Insolation.

Solar production is of course very much dependent on location.

So it works far better in the sunny SW.

https://www.nrel.gov/gis/solar.html
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Old 03-15-2019, 03:21 PM
  #209  
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Originally Posted by need-for-speed View Post
what do oil subsidies look like? Does the government write checks to the oil companies ?
I typically think of tax breaks and maybe land lease rates (not sure if any oil is on public lands though). Pretty sure the tax breaks happen
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Old 03-15-2019, 03:40 PM
  #210  
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Originally Posted by jasper711 View Post
REA is only but a tiny percentage of the total power distributed, and even as a public assistance program, it took huge advantage of technological advances invented by profit seeking capitalists. Read up on the development of electricity and you will see the fathers of industry often acting more benevolent than any government agency.

And your guess about the oil industry also seems to be dead nuts wrong as that was originally a fringe business paid for by speculators that could undercut the cost of Coal.

Capitalism is good for you, go ahead and give it a try some time. No other system results in so much incentive for folks to use the full extent of their their capability.
I absolutely believe capitalism is the best System for improving a society, I just think unchecked capitalism (greed driven) is not so good, yes it still benefits the few (much as corrupt communism reaps big benefits for the few) but usually at a great cost to others (like in this argument, the environment).

I believe the Oil/Gas industry receives tax law advantages (yes Solar has as well), sorry if I used the wrong words.

I can be an environmentalist and a capitalist system believer.

I guess I look at the anthropogenic question this way, we want to believe that our current fossil fuel system can't damage the ecosystem because it seems ok right now or maybe it'll make things better (could be, I don't know for sure and no one else is saying they know for sure). The Whale Oil trade was great, couldn't run out of whales right. They didn't have enough info at the time, and if left to pure capitalism there would have been so few left as to render the industry useless.
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Old 03-15-2019, 03:45 PM
  #211  
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electric cars have become the unicorn of the green warmers.
cultish.
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Old 03-15-2019, 05:16 PM
  #212  
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Originally Posted by Hoonose View Post
Insolation.

Solar production is of course very much dependent on location.

So it works far better in the sunny SW.

https://www.nrel.gov/gis/solar.html
Yes indeed, that is where i was involved in developing a large scale proposal for PGE about 8 years ago (that was totally obliterated by a competing project sponsored indirectly by the Chinese Government). At the time it would have been one of the top 10 largest projects in the USA, now it would seem just average. There are maps showing the solar output very common to anybody doing this, and also it is well known what angle the panels can be aligned to better suite utility demand, though sacrificing a little capacity (which is never considered on residential buy back projects), the payback on single axis or two axis aim-able arrays, cleaning schedules etc.

Interesting fact to consider: one could make billions of dollars constructing a coal burning power plant with less damage to the environment, if only that could some how be categorized as a green power project subject to legislated buy back programs.
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Old 03-15-2019, 05:27 PM
  #213  
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Originally Posted by suprspooky View Post
I absolutely believe capitalism is the best System for improving a society, I just think unchecked capitalism (greed driven) is not so good, yes it still benefits the few (much as corrupt communism reaps big benefits for the few) but usually at a great cost to others (like in this argument, the environment).

I believe the Oil/Gas industry receives tax law advantages (yes Solar has as well), sorry if I used the wrong words.

I can be an environmentalist and a capitalist system believer.

I guess I look at the anthropogenic question this way, we want to believe that our current fossil fuel system can't damage the ecosystem because it seems ok right now or maybe it'll make things better (could be, I don't know for sure and no one else is saying they know for sure). The Whale Oil trade was great, couldn't run out of whales right. They didn't have enough info at the time, and if left to pure capitalism there would have been so few left as to render the industry useless.
There is no question that capitalist morality has slipped since 70 years ago when a higher percentage of the population were practicing religion, and that should be our concern. So I agree that unchecked capitalism can be a problem (and don't have an answer for things like profiteering pharmaceutical companies).

I have worked much in the oil and gas industry and am not aware of tax advantages that they obtain, except the lunacy claimed by global warmists that say we need $85B now to offset future global warming. On the other hand the oil and gas industry serves most of the public and has endured some pretty onerous government regulations: gas would be $10 per gallon and the industry less checked under government ownership.

Now you are raising deeper issues and I'm not sure about the answers.
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Old 03-15-2019, 06:02 PM
  #214  
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Originally Posted by jasper711 View Post
There is no question that capitalist morality has slipped since 70 years ago when a higher percentage of the population were practicing religion, and that should be our concern. So I agree that unchecked capitalism can be a problem (and don't have an answer for things like profiteering pharmaceutical companies).

I have worked much in the oil and gas industry and am not aware of tax advantages that they obtain, except the lunacy claimed by global warmists that say we need $85B now to offset future global warming. On the other hand the oil and gas industry serves most of the public and has endured some pretty onerous government regulations: gas would be $10 per gallon and the industry less checked under government ownership.

Now you are raising deeper issues and I'm not sure about the answers.
You are correct deeper issues (I have no absolute answers either),an example of of a tax break/subsidy is accelerated depreciation (I can't say for sure the Oil/Gas operations have used it, I just know it exists), you and I can't get a break like that but a huge Corp. can lobby for it and get richer for it.

My gut tells me we are going down a slippery environmental slope and we may be ruining things for future generations. Just the methane escaping from NG fracking alone is wearisome, but it may be a better trade than coal or crude oil products for generating electricity.
It is an open debate topic, clearly not a big enough data set yet to make concrete statements but hopefully it won't be too late when the tally is complete
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Old 03-15-2019, 08:01 PM
  #215  
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Originally Posted by suprspooky View Post
You are correct deeper issues (I have no absolute answers either),an example of of a tax break/subsidy is accelerated depreciation (I can't say for sure the Oil/Gas operations have used it, I just know it exists), you and I can't get a break like that but a huge Corp. can lobby for it and get richer for it.

My gut tells me we are going down a slippery environmental slope and we may be ruining things for future generations. Just the methane escaping from NG fracking alone is wearisome, but it may be a better trade than coal or crude oil products for generating electricity.
It is an open debate topic, clearly not a big enough data set yet to make concrete statements but hopefully it won't be too late when the tally is complete
Back around 1973, there was a shortage of rental properties(multi-family) so the .gov made it possible for an individual to build a duplex and get 200% deprecation to spur investment in multi-family rentals. I had just invested a bunch of money in my retail business, and I was tapped out, so I couldn't swing building some duplexes to get the tax breaks. I was not a multi-billion dollar corporation. Didn't have to be to get the tax break.

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Old 03-15-2019, 08:29 PM
  #216  
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That's the good part of EV and solar tax breaks You don't have to be a corp to enjoy them.
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Old 03-16-2019, 12:31 PM
  #217  
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Originally Posted by suprspooky View Post
I typically think of tax breaks and maybe land lease rates (not sure if any oil is on public lands though). Pretty sure the tax breaks happen
Which is what most people think. Tax breaks are given to ALL INDUSTRIES. Think of Amazon and New York. General Electric pays little to no taxes. Yes, oil companies pay fees to explore on public lands and if they extract HC the gov gets a cut, which it should. They own the minerals.

Subsides = 500 million dollar check written to Solyndra.

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Old 03-16-2019, 12:38 PM
  #218  
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Originally Posted by need-for-speed View Post
Which is what most people think. Tax breaks are given to ALL INDUSTRIES. Think of Amazon and New York. General Electric pays little to no taxes. Yes, oil companies pay fees to explore on public lands and if they extract HC the gov gets a cut, which it should. They own the minerals.

Subsides = 500 million dollar check written to Solyndra.
With Solyndra it was a federal loan guarantee. Do you know how much money was actually paid out from central sources? And with what money?
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Old 03-16-2019, 12:42 PM
  #219  
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And I might as well chime in on the larger discussion. EVs are a great solution for people that do all of their driving within a certain radius. If the true fuel cost is about .11 per gallon, then that is significant. If fuel costs were a big deal for me, I would buy one in a heartbeat, as a second vehicle (actually a 5th vehicle ). I also like the aspect of charging up at night to better utilize power generation during off peak hours.

What I strongly object to is the government subsidies. If it’s viable technology, it should sink or swim on its own. Surely our local liberals/ greenies are not in favor of corporate welfare, are they?

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Old 03-16-2019, 12:43 PM
  #220  
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Originally Posted by Hoonose View Post
With Solyndra it was a federal loan guarantee. Do you know how much money was actually paid out from central sources? And with what money?
no. Do you ?
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