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Trump ISSUES EO, grounds the 737 MAX FLEET...

 
Old 03-15-2019, 10:58 AM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by IMBoring25 View Post
This so closely mirrors the stick shaker/stick pusher arrangement that's existed for 50+ years that I'm suspicious it's tongue-in-cheek. The primary input however, just like the MAX system, is the AOA sensors. Evidence is mounting, however, that the implementation in the MAX is more prone to malfunction or prone to more critical malfunction than other systems. Sounds just like a "better idea" from someone who doesn't fully understand why things have been done the way they have been in the past.
Those AOA vanes are a perfect grab or hand hold for some third World Country mechanic to grab as he is climbing up onto the plane, some guy using ladder to get to the pilot cover grabbed it ! Or the joystick causeway operator is a careless driver and missed and bumped one!!

They probably should measure angle and orientation, and check with a multimeter at a minimum pre-flight! The sensor input so critical, that an angle or orientation flaw probably wonít be noticed in the visual walk around! On a sensor dependent airplane, too bad a little input can kill two airplanes full of people! They knew this from the first plane, but opted to put out a vague pilot instruction on how to attempt to trim the airplane, instead of the expense fix to rewrite programming, and then get it incorporated into all of those planes!

PS extra but I think these planes still have shake inducing on the stick, just as in a video game, as a subtle warning to the pilot??? Maybe someone knows on this forum? Got to wake them up, if they fall asleep!

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Old 03-15-2019, 11:13 AM
  #122  
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Ps covering smoke coming from the airplane, more than likely when they sped up to try to get lift, they were at thick low attitude and the plane made contrails! Or maybe they tried to dump fuel, to instantly get down to landing weight for an immediate loop around! I doubt the fuel! Naturally stupid ignorant people on the ground think smoke! And with smoke, and their imaginations will jump the shark to adding in flames!

And pitched badly, what?? 125-150 knots over protocol flight speed due to trying to fly it out of the problem, there might have been a structural failure too! .

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Old 03-15-2019, 11:21 AM
  #123  
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Time frame question: I have no/none/nada knowledge of what goes on in the cockpit of any plane...

From take off to altitude, exactly when do the computers take over and fly these large planes and vise versa?...
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Old 03-15-2019, 11:24 AM
  #124  
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Originally Posted by ThePigWhisperer View Post
Its a tough call. Would you put your kids or your parents on a 737 MAX? I wouldn't. As a pilot I myself would be leery at this point when I strapped myself in. They should have the data from the CVR and FDR from the last crash interpreted ASAP to see what went wrong. If it's not a MCAS issue then let the plane fly.
My brother I would.

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Old 03-15-2019, 11:30 AM
  #125  
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Originally Posted by redvtt View Post
Stands a good chance of being correct.

The Ethiopian pilots are qualified at 200 hours, seat time.
U.S. pilots are qualified at 3500 hours, seat time.

IMO, Ethiopia needs to review its training program, if that's the cause.
So the MCAS is trying to kill them, from flawed input error readings related to the planes orientation (angle of attack)! So as a pilot, tell us what you would do! Do you go for the disconnects! Do you make the corrections with the system, but then switch off, prior to the MCAS trying to kill you again? After manually trimming, you have about 5 seconds, prior to the MCAS doing itís thing, thinking you are wrong! Thus the nose up and then down, then up and permanently down!
The stick is pulled all the way back into their chests to attempt to get nose up, they jammed the throttles for full acceleration! The cockpit noise growing as speed increased. Shear panic set into both of those cockpits, for sure!!! No doubt! True a very experienced pilot, might save it, if they can extremely fast, figure out that the automation is not right, compared to your seat of the pants experience! True these modern mill pilots are taught to trust the equipment. I think it would have been the rare guy that could have saved it! And I realize that the level of severity, could be different plane to plane! And there could have been more of these, but the AOA vane was just minimally out of orientation, thus the pilots had no problem handling! True!

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Old 03-15-2019, 11:52 AM
  #126  
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There needs to be a single disconnect switch on the yoke that instantly disconnects all automated inputs to the control yoke and throttles, thereby putting the planes flight controls into full manual control.

I've personally experienced autopilot runaway a number of times. You don't try to figure it out, you just disconnect it then fly it manually. Airspeed can quickly exceed allowables when the nose is pointed below the horizon under power.

If you don't know how to fly it manually, then you do not belong at the controls. Training must include disengaging the auto-pilot controls an flying the plane manually under ALL weather conditions and flight configurations.

I've heard from friends and acquaintances who fly "heavies" that many new pilots believe these automated systems cannot fail. That's bullshit. They can and do fail. All control automation systems are capable of failing.

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Old 03-15-2019, 11:58 AM
  #127  
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Originally Posted by redvtt View Post
My brother I would.

I have an older Aunt who is a pain in the *** in the family, maybe get her on board an unlucky one! Pay day!!!!!!
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Old 03-15-2019, 12:00 PM
  #128  
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Originally Posted by RandolphB View Post
Nobody seems to be noticing that the main countries to ban their flights are ones engaged in trade battles with the US. They're going to look stupid when it turns out that Johnny Dirt Farmer the Pilot wasn't qualified enough to fly the damn plane, but they let him anyway.
yep that was the reason........oh wait, the President just grounded them too.
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Old 03-15-2019, 12:01 PM
  #129  
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Originally Posted by Turbodude View Post
There needs to be a single disconnect switch on the yoke that instantly disconnects all automated inputs to the control yoke and throttles, thereby putting the planes flight controls into full manual control.

I've personally experienced autopilot runaway a number of times. You don't try to figure it out, you just disconnect it then fly it manually. Airspeed can quickly exceed allowables when the nose is pointed below the horizon under power.

If you don't know how to fly it manually, then you do not belong at the controls. Training must include disengaging the auto-pilot controls an flying the plane manually under ALL weather conditions and flight configurations.

I've heard from friends and acquaintances who fly "heavies" that many new pilots believe these automated systems cannot fail. That's bullshit. They can and do fail. All control automation systems are capable of failing.
On these heavies with the plane orientation compromised, a switch off to manual, the motor control on the stab would take longer, thus I think leave it on, correct, then disconnect!! Maybe????

I donít know how many porpoises they did! If it was take off, system felt nose too high, forced it down, the pilots were likeóó what the ****!!!! Then not feeling the plane was reacting, stick to chest to change flaps, throttles full on, but then the system really thought it needed to go automated for conversation purpose! With the pilot doing two instinctual corrections, that was it! The only other would be to disconnect! When they got the nose back up on stick back and increase speed, was the point to disconnect! But the MCAS fucked them again, and into the ground it went! At the point where they were going down, who would have the presence of mind to disengage the automation? At that point, it was death grip on the controls, and praying!!!!! Unfortunately!
I am really trying to simplify my comments for ease of explanation!

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Old 03-15-2019, 12:11 PM
  #130  
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Originally Posted by TCracingCA View Post
On these heavies with the plane orientation compromised, a switch off to manual, the motor control on the stab would take longer, thus I think leave it on, correct, then disconnect!! Maybe????
If a system is failing it's next to impossible to predict what position it's going to fail in, or maybe the control output becomes randomly erratic...not steady state. Large planes utilize hydraulic assist or even fly-by-wire (Airbus). Yoke forces when under manual control must be within a pilots normal control force range, and the power assist systems must be capable of overriding the aerodynamic forces resulting from a failed trim tab or other mechanism being at the mechanical stops in either direction.

The disengage system MUST be capable of putting the plane into safe manual flight control mode. And the pilot needs to be able to manually recover from whatever attitude he may find himself in after autopilot disengagement.

A complete system review is required.

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Old 03-15-2019, 12:16 PM
  #131  
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Originally Posted by Turbodude View Post
If a system is failing it's next to impossible to predict what position it's going to fail in, or maybe the control output becomes randomly erratic...not steady state. Large planes utilize hydraulic assist or even fly-by-wire (Airbus). Yoke forces when under manual control must be within a pilots normal control force range, and the power assist systems must be capable of overriding the aerodynamic forces resulting from a failed trim tab or other mechanism being at the mechanical stops in either direction.

The disengage system MUST be capable of putting the plane into safe manual flight control mode. And the pilot needs to be able to manually recover from whatever attitude he may find himself in after autopilot disengagement.

A complete system review is required.
I am 100% with that comment addition!!!

They with controls to the chest, if they disengaged, they better hope the plane is flyable, able to be controlled! It probably was oriented where they most definitely were screwed!

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Old 03-15-2019, 12:16 PM
  #132  
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Originally Posted by TCracingCA View Post
I have an older Aunt who is a pain in the *** in the family, maybe get her on board an unlucky one! Pay day!!!!!!
Good luck! I know the feeling.

BTW, my flight time in a copilots seat was 10 or 15 minutes at 6 or 7 years of age in the late 50s in a DC-8??, iirc.
The four engine, propeller driven airliner. My dad went up to visit the pilots on a flight between Tokyo and Hawaii. He came back, asked me if I wanted to visit the pilots. Sure did! When I entered the cabin, the copilot got out of his seat, asked me if I wanted to sit. So I did, hands on the yoke.
They took it out of autopilot, unknowing to me. Told me I was flying the plane. I didn't believe them, so I slightly banked it left. There was an indicator that had a plane in it, with like crosshairs. The indicator banked left also. Pilot told me, hit that button. I did, it went back into autopilot. An experience I'll never forget, in my lifetime.
I remember shouting out to my mom, "Mom!! I flew the plane!" when I got back to my seat. There were a few passengers with a shocked look on their faces.
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Old 03-15-2019, 12:20 PM
  #133  
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Nailed it!!!!! Now just have to see if the FAA gets there as fast as Corvette Forum!!!!
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Old 03-15-2019, 12:22 PM
  #134  
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Originally Posted by redvtt View Post
Good luck! I know the feeling.

BTW, my flight time in a copilots seat was 10 or 15 minutes at 6 or 7 years of age in the late 50s in a DC-8??, iirc.
The four engine, propeller driven airliner. My dad went up to visit the pilots on a flight between Tokyo and Hawaii. He came back, asked me if I wanted to visit the pilots. Sure did! When I entered the cabin, the copilot got out of his seat, asked me if I wanted to sit. So I did, hands on the yoke.
They took it out of autopilot, unknowing to me. Told me I was flying the plane. I didn't believe them, so I slightly banked it left. There was an indicator that had a plane in it, with like crosshairs. The indicator banked left also. Pilot told me, hit that button. I did, it went back into autopilot. An experience I'll never forget, in my lifetime.
I remember shouting out to my mom, "Mom!! I flew the plane!" when I got back to my seat. There were a few passengers with a shocked look on their faces.
I think they served the passengers more alcohol back in the old days, when life was more interesting, with way less rules!
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Old 03-15-2019, 12:55 PM
  #135  
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Originally Posted by TCracingCA View Post
I think they served the passengers more alcohol back in the old days, when life was more interesting, with way less rules!
Yep.
When we were taking off from Hawaii on the last leg, Hawaii to San Francisco, the engine started dumping oil. I saw it from my window, told my mom who told my dad, who went up and told the pilot. He came back, took a look, turned the plane around after dumping fuel. We waited on the tarmac (on cement beside the plane) while they made repairs. About 8 hours later, we took off in that plane.
That's how they (airlines) did it back then. I'm certain they've (FAA, POTUS) have learned from that type of experience.
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Old 03-15-2019, 01:10 PM
  #136  
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Originally Posted by TCracingCA View Post
I am 100% with that comment addition!!!

They with controls to the chest, if they disengaged, they better hope the plane is flyable, able to be controlled! It probably was oriented where they most definitely were screwed!
You have to know how to recover from unusual attitudes. This is part of normal flight training. You can't allow yourself to freak out if you find yourself inverted....you just have to roll out of it. Granted, these heavies are not acrobatic sportplanes and may not be able to handle many G's. But the pilot should be capable of manually recovering from an inverted position and pushing the plane to its design G-limits. This requires periodic aerobatic training. Most pilots never bank more than 45 degrees for the majority of their career, which leaves them at risk of freaking out if the plane goes inverted. A pilot needs to be impervious to panic....and that means being familiar with unusual attitudes, G-forces, and far-off design flight conditions.
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Old 03-15-2019, 01:36 PM
  #137  
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Originally Posted by IMBoring25 View Post
This so closely mirrors the stick shaker/stick pusher arrangement that's existed for 50+ years that I'm suspicious it's tongue-in-cheek. The primary input however, just like the MAX system, is the AOA sensors. Evidence is mounting, however, that the implementation in the MAX is more prone to malfunction or prone to more critical malfunction than other systems. Sounds just like a "better idea" from someone who doesn't fully understand why things have been done the way they have been in the past.
Yes. sarcasm was intended. The Max should not have a flight control algorithm that will override a consistent pilot manual input. Somewhere, lost in a lifetime's accumulation of clutter, is a file folder of Aviation Week articles I collected describing 10 serious Airbus incidents, several fatal, where the Airbus flight control system overrode pilot manual inputs. The Airbus highly computerized flight control system was intended to be fool proof with respect to pilot errors, the advertising mantra was that expensive pilot training would not be required, allowing low skilled pilots to fly their aircraft. Unfortunately the software programmers did not foresee the unusual events that would occur to invalidate their control algorithms....sensor error was often one of these unforeseen events.
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Old 03-15-2019, 01:54 PM
  #138  
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Originally Posted by Turbodude View Post
If a system is failing it's next to impossible to predict what position it's going to fail in, or maybe the control output becomes randomly erratic...not steady state. Large planes utilize hydraulic assist or even fly-by-wire (Airbus). Yoke forces when under manual control must be within a pilots normal control force range, and the power assist systems must be capable of overriding the aerodynamic forces resulting from a failed trim tab or other mechanism being at the mechanical stops in either direction.

The disengage system MUST be capable of putting the plane into safe manual flight control mode. And the pilot needs to be able to manually recover from whatever attitude he may find himself in after autopilot disengagement.

A complete system review is required.
In this class of aircraft there's no excuse to need to override when the system is getting completely incomprehensible inputs like that. The system should notice that this makes no sense, disable itself until manually reset, and trigger an alert that tells the pilot to abort takeoff or to go pan-pan and avoid the near-stall regime.
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Old 03-15-2019, 02:24 PM
  #139  
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Originally Posted by IMBoring25 View Post
In this class of aircraft there's no excuse to need to override when the system is getting completely incomprehensible inputs like that. The system should notice that this makes no sense, disable itself until manually reset, and trigger an alert that tells the pilot to abort takeoff or to go pan-pan and avoid the near-stall regime.
Hell, feed a set of wheel speed sensor data that don't make sense into the OBD2 PCM on my 2005 GM car, and you'll get a message stating an error, and stability control is disabled.
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Old 03-15-2019, 02:34 PM
  #140  
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Originally Posted by FourPennyDoug View Post
I'm curious if 89.4 are pilot error, and .5 are maintenance, and design flaws are less than that, what contributes to the other 10% of crashes?

Also, does the 89.4 number go down when you single out large passenger jets? Reason I ask is because I frequently watch those how it happened shows and maintenance/mechanical/design flaws for catastrophic failure is much higher than your percentages, more like 50%.
@RandolphB still interested in hearing what encompasses the 10%.
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