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Piece Found At Ethiopian Airlines Crash Site Shows Jet Was Set To Dive

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Piece Found At Ethiopian Airlines Crash Site Shows Jet Was Set To Dive

 
Old 03-15-2019, 07:30 PM
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ghostmech
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Default Piece Found At Ethiopian Airlines Crash Site Shows Jet Was Set To Dive

A screw-like device found in the wreckage of the Boeing 737 Max that crashed last Sunday in Ethiopia indicates the plane was configured to dive.
The "device" was probably the jack screw for the elevator trim. That is not something that would change even in a crash... if anything it would be locked into its last position. Makes me wonder if this was some sort of suicide mission? Who were the pilots?

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/piec...o-dive-2008100
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Old 03-15-2019, 07:50 PM
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I feel really bad for the people who passed, and will pray for them.

My feeling is that the computer malfunctioned. It's like the gas pedal that caused the crashes a few years ago. The altitude sensor that froze and caused the "pilots" to fly into the ocean, with no physical connection to the pilots they can't override the computer if a sensor malfunctions.

The driverless cars that crash are doing the same thing, I can't imagine resetting the computer at 60 mph. But again with no key if the off button does not shut off the car - then what. That is why I like the key - you turn it off.
I had a carb return spring break on a car in the late 60's, I reached down and turned off the ignition - car stopped without blowing the motor.


I guess a CHECK ENGINE light at 5000 feet is really bad.

Going this high tech is not necessary, and really scary. This is a sad commentary on going so high tech, that there is really no fail safe. I feel sorry for the people who passed because of the push for " advanced aviation" .

What scares me is the next step is pilotless planes in the future...

Last edited by BLUE1972; 03-15-2019 at 08:24 PM.
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Old 03-15-2019, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by BLUE1972 View Post
I feel really bad for the people who passed, and will pray for them.

My feeling is that the computer malfunctioned. It's like the gas pedal that caused the crashes a few years ago. The altitude sensor that froze and caused the "pilots" to fly into the ocean, with no physical connection to the pilots they can't override the computer if a sensor malfunctions.

The driverless cars that crash are doing the same thing, I can't imagine resetting the computer at 60 mph. But again with no key if the off button does not shut off the car - then what. That is why I like the key - you turn it off.
I had a carb return spring break on a car in the late 60's, I reached down and turned off the ignition - car stopped without blowing the motor.


I guess a CHECK ENGINE light at 5000 feet is really bad.

Going this high tech is not necessary, and really scary. This is a sad commentary on going so high tech, that there is really no fail safe. I feel sorry for the people who passed because of the push for " advanced aviation" .

What scares me is the next step is pilotless plains in the future...

A plane without a pilot is automatically 89.4% less probable of crashing. High tech is not a problem, pilot mill low hour bad pilots are. Pilots not knowing how to handle something as simple as turning of the flight computer and taking the controls is unforgivable. The Air France went down because the two at the controls couldn't figure out they had stalled and were falling rapidly. The redundancy is an automated aircraft IS the flight crew. they are the living, breathing, thinking components that are supposed to be the end all safety mechanism. One of the crash audio recordings showed the pilot was scared. Fear means he had no idea or business flying the plane. Sully may have been concerned, but he didn't let his emotions interfere with his ability to fly. He also had an issue with a fully loaded aircraft on takeoff...
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Old 03-15-2019, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by ghostmech View Post
The "device" was probably the jack screw for the elevator trim. That is not something that would change even in a crash... if anything it would be locked into its last position. Makes me wonder if this was some sort of suicide mission? Who were the pilots?

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/piec...o-dive-2008100
I doubt that. The pilots were panicking a bit when asking to return and land.
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Old 03-15-2019, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by RandolphB View Post
A plane without a pilot is automatically 89.4% less probable of crashing. High tech is not a problem, pilot mill low hour bad pilots are. Pilots not knowing how to handle something as simple as turning of the flight computer and taking the controls is unforgivable. The Air France went down because the two at the controls couldn't figure out they had stalled and were falling rapidly. The redundancy is an automated aircraft IS the flight crew. they are the living, breathing, thinking components that are supposed to be the end all safety mechanism. One of the crash audio recordings showed the pilot was scared. Fear means he had no idea or business flying the plane. Sully may have been concerned, but he didn't let his emotions interfere with his ability to fly. He also had an issue with a fully loaded aircraft on takeoff...
If you remember in Sully's case the computer simulation showed they could have made it back to an airport... he knew they could not...
The difference is the NEW airplanes have no connection physically from the crew to the operating surfaces. It's like the Flying wing - which almost can't fly without the computers.. If the power goes out down they go …

Lets hope they find the issue and fix it as soon as they can...

Last edited by BLUE1972; 03-15-2019 at 08:20 PM.
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Old 03-15-2019, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by BLUE1972
I feel really bad for the people who passed, and will pray for them.

My feeling is that the computer malfunctioned. It's like the gas pedal that caused the crashes a few years ago. The altitude sensor that froze and caused the "pilots" to fly into the ocean, with no physical connection to the pilots they can't override the computer if a sensor malfunctions.

The driverless cars that crash are doing the same thing, I can't imagine resetting the computer at 60 mph. But again with no key if the off button does not shut off the car - then what. That is why I like the key - you turn it off.
I had a carb return spring break on a car in the late 60's, I reached down and turned off the ignition - car stopped without blowing the motor.


I guess a CHECK ENGINE light at 5000 feet is really bad.

Going this high tech is not necessary, and really scary. This is a sad commentary on going so high tech, that there is really no fail safe. I feel sorry for the people who passed because of the push for " advanced aviation" .

What scares me is the next step is pilotless planes in the future...
You have zero idea what you're taking about. Literally zero...

Originally Posted by RandolphB
A plane without a pilot is automatically 89.4% less probable of crashing. High tech is not a problem, pilot mill low hour bad pilots are. Pilots not knowing how to handle something as simple as turning of the flight computer and taking the controls is unforgivable. The Air France went down because the two at the controls couldn't figure out they had stalled and were falling rapidly. The redundancy is an automated aircraft IS the flight crew. they are the living, breathing, thinking components that are supposed to be the end all safety mechanism. One of the crash audio recordings showed the pilot was scared. Fear means he had no idea or business flying the plane. Sully may have been concerned, but he didn't let his emotions interfere with his ability to fly. He also had an issue with a fully loaded aircraft on takeoff...
This is why you don't fly on airplanes with 200 hour pilots. American major air carriers have an exceptionally safety record, it isn't luck.
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Old 03-15-2019, 09:25 PM
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The pilot of Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 reported having flight control problems with the Boeing 737 Max 8 in the minutes before it crashed, airline CEO Tewolde GebreMariam says, providing new details about the disaster that killed 157 people on Sunday.

Pilot Yared Getachew, who had more than 8,000 flight hours of experience, "was having difficulties with the flight control" and requested a return to the airport in Addis Ababa, GebreMariam told CNN, citing recordings of communications between the plane and air traffic controllers.

Clearance for an immediate return was granted. But the plane didn't make it back, crashing just six minutes after takeoff and stoking concerns about the Max 8 passenger jet — which was involved in another deadly crash under similar circumstances in Indonesia less than five months ago.
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Old 03-15-2019, 09:28 PM
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It's been reported that one of the pilots only had 200hrs of flying time. That's inexcusable.
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Old 03-15-2019, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by 69er View Post
I doubt that. The pilots were panicking a bit when asking to return and land.
.

Probably fully aware of the safety concerns.

Boeing is going to get sued.
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Old 03-15-2019, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by RJ-92 View Post
It's been reported that one of the pilots only had 200hrs of flying time. That's inexcusable.
.

I agree that's an issue, but not necessarily a factor in this incident.

This is starting to look like a significant product design issue.

Hopefully a robust fix can be implemented. I'm thinking the fix may well require more than some coding.

Perhaps this will serve as a reality check for those incessantly lauding the wonders of full automation. Trying to fix an aerodynamic instability in a commercial airliner with software is probably not the brightest idea.

Stability should be mechanically inherent. This problem sounds analogous to an automatic control system for preventing a hydrostatically unstable (capsize prone) ship from capsizing. That would be a dumb idea, would it not?

Last edited by Turbodude; 03-15-2019 at 10:01 PM.
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Old 03-15-2019, 10:07 PM
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Pilots need to fly airplanes on takeoff and landings PERIOD.
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Old 03-15-2019, 10:16 PM
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I'm calling far extreme yagottabekiddinme .

All the experts have already examined all the tiny parts and found this one that....

I'll stop right there.
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Old 03-15-2019, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Turbodude View Post
.

Probably fully aware of the safety concerns.

Boeing is going to get sued.
Their largest financial liability will be airlines sueing Boeing for lost revenue as the airplanes sit on tarmacs. To make money to pay Boeing for the purchase price, airlines have to keep these airplanes flying all day long.

Their financial liability for wrongful death suits from the passengers may be limited. If the Lion and Ethiopian flights were international flights, Boeing's liability is limited by International Treaty, which doesn't have big payouts for passenger's estates.
th
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Old 03-15-2019, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by RJ-92 View Post
It's been reported that one of the pilots only had 200hrs of flying time. That's inexcusable.
Damn right, pilots should only be allowed to fly airplanes after they have 1000 plus hours of flying time.
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Old 03-15-2019, 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by BLUE1972 View Post
If you remember in Sully's case the computer simulation showed they could have made it back to an airport... he knew they could not...
The difference is the NEW airplanes have no connection physically from the crew to the operating surfaces. It's like the Flying wing - which almost can't fly without the computers.. If the power goes out down they go …

Lets hope they find the issue and fix it as soon as they can...

That's why I say that flight crews are the final redundancy to control the aircraft, not the primary. If flight computers are used, it's up to the crew to be able to disengage and take control. Some systems allow for pilot input to overide auto controls. But if the pilot can't tell they are stalling, they still kill themselves.

The "New" airplanes with fly by wire have been around for decades. There seem to have been far more failures of mechanical linked, hydraulic assisted systems than FBW ever had. BTW- the Northrup Flying Wings had no computer assist and flew well enough....

As for Sully, ONE of the simulations showed they could have made it back. But as PIC it was up to him to pick the best chance for survival of everybody. Rather than try to go back, over populated city blocks, he put it down in the river as the safest option. He was the very definition of "Pilot In Command". Not "Getting paid to be a pilot anyway".
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Old 03-15-2019, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by ghostmech View Post
The "device" was probably the jack screw for the elevator trim. That is not something that would change even in a crash... if anything it would be locked into its last position. Makes me wonder if this was some sort of suicide mission? Who were the pilots?

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/piec...o-dive-2008100
You know the Boeing engineers are waiting to hear what the hell happened.
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Old 03-15-2019, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by BLUE1972 View Post
I feel really bad for the people who passed, and will pray for them.

My feeling is that the computer malfunctioned. It's like the gas pedal that caused the crashes a few years ago. The altitude sensor that froze and caused the "pilots" to fly into the ocean, with no physical connection to the pilots they can't override the computer if a sensor malfunctions.

The driverless cars that crash are doing the same thing, I can't imagine resetting the computer at 60 mph. But again with no key if the off button does not shut off the car - then what. That is why I like the key - you turn it off.
I had a carb return spring break on a car in the late 60's, I reached down and turned off the ignition - car stopped without blowing the motor.


I guess a CHECK ENGINE light at 5000 feet is really bad.

Going this high tech is not necessary, and really scary. This is a sad commentary on going so high tech, that there is really no fail safe. I feel sorry for the people who passed because of the push for " advanced aviation" .

What scares me is the next step is pilotless planes in the future...
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Old 03-15-2019, 11:31 PM
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Clearly the solution to these problems with these planes could be solved by hiring the same Muslims pilots that perpetrated the 9/11 event with such precision.
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Old 03-15-2019, 11:34 PM
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If it's the jack screw for the elevator trim that was recovered and in full down position, it sounds like an indicator that MCAS was trying to correct what it saw as a pitch up condition.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that just the small trim tab surface that jack screw aactuates? The rest of the elevator control surface is hydraulic, isn't it? It would seem like trim tabs shouldn't have much effect with the stick pulled back and the elevator surface upwards; should it not still push the tail down?

Or is the term 'trim' a not ao direct way of saying the computer has the entire elevator control surface?
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Old 03-15-2019, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by RJ-92 View Post
It's been reported that one of the pilots only had 200hrs of flying time. That's inexcusable.
You couldn’t fly a Cessna on a paid sightseeing hop with those hours in the US
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