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How do we get our rights back?

 
Old 05-15-2019, 08:31 AM
  #81  
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Default Please Real Christian President Pence! ;)

Revoke All new immigrant Citizenship until there is a Bipartisan bill. MAGA
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Old 05-15-2019, 08:49 AM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by pologreen1 View Post
How do we get our basic human right of self protection back to carry?
Move to a state like Texas that allows it?
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Old 05-15-2019, 09:02 AM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by US Icon View Post
In your hypothetical situation, what is the number of people, the concentration, and distance between the active democrat shooter and the good guy with a gun?
-Number of people in between "good guy with gun": 15-20
-Sparsely concentrated, but think of a mall food court or the center of the mall
-Distance to "democrat shooter" and "good guy with gun": 100 meters

BTW, adding variables and using political snipes instead of just answering the question indicates that you either don't have a cogent response or you think taking down an active shooter with a gun in a crowded space is as easy as it looks in the movies or in "Call of Duty".

There are two more variables/elements that you didn't mention in your response to my post...

-What is your level of training in using firearms in close quarters.
-The active shooter almost always has the initial element of surprise; will you freeze when the shooter opens fire?

We can add variables all day to try to validate that there is a one-size-fits-all-scenarios solution (the good guy with a gun and/or arming everyone). Mass shootings can't be prevented, but they can be mitigated. The good guy with a gun only works depending upon the situation and the skills/knowledge/courage of the good guy with the gun. That was the point of my hypothetical.
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Old 05-15-2019, 09:28 AM
  #84  
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I would not want to be at the described scene. In our CCW class (In Wi) the instructor brought up the exact scenario as you did - mall full of people and an active shooter and he stated a provision of good Samaritan law or similar that if the good guy accidentally shoots a few bystanders in an effort to kill the bad guy, he can't be charged. The logic being that a few harmed innocent people and a dead active shooter is better than 50 dead people and the active shooter still at large. Again this is in Wi.

Not going to play into this hypothetical on the internet and I would not want to test it in court. No link, as this was a verbal conversation in CCW class.

While is it a fair question, your hypothetical has so many variables so to purposely create a situation were the good guy still looses. We could unclutter the quandary and state there are only 2 people in the mall, the bad guy pulls a gun on the good guy, which is the most basic premise for CCW in the first place.
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Old 05-15-2019, 09:42 AM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by maybelooking View Post
Lets say you and I agree on what should be done. I would rather do it with my weapon than without it.
I'm not suggesting that people not be allowed to protect themselves. That is actually antithetical to my point.

I am suggesting that most people (as in the vast majority of us in this country) should absolutely stop living in a bubble and thinking "this isn't supposed to happen here" every time one of these mass shootings happens in relatively affluent areas where the perpetrator(s) tend to be white males from middle to upper class backgrounds (not your stereotypical criminal). The natural right to protect yourself and defend your family is just that; a natural right. But most people (as in the vast majority of us in this country) are ill-prepared to exercise their natural rights and therein lies the problem.

Some people really should not have guns and so it is not as simple as "give everyone a CCW and training". That is something you as an individual should decide and do for yourself and you don't have to ask permission to do it or look for the government to endorse it. That said, don't think that just because you have a CCW license and a weapon on you that you have any sort of advantage in an active shooter scenario because many times, the right thing to do to use the OODA process (Orient, Observe, Decide, Act) and that process and the situation might not lead you to taking out the shooter with your own weapon.

My long way of saying that people need to wake up and not turn the aftermath of every mass shooting into a pro vs. anti gun debate.

That said, here is what can be done that preserves our basic rights (that we still have, BTW):

-Get rid of gun safe zones (These zones are only safe for criminals)
-Be more vigilant/situationally aware. Many of these mass shooters threw up countless red flags that were ignored BEFORE they committed their crimes.
-Empower people to protect themselves and others, but only those that are willing.
-Stop giving mass shooters notoriety by never using their names in the media. Ever.
-Stop politicizing the problem. Guns are not the problem, people are.
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Old 05-15-2019, 09:48 AM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by US Icon View Post
I would not want to be at the described scene. In our CCW class (In Wi) the instructor brought up the exact scenario as you did - mall full of people and an active shooter and he stated a provision of good Samaritan law or similar that if the good guy accidentally shoots a few bystanders in an effort to kill the bad guy, he can't be charged. The logic being that a few harmed innocent people and a dead active shooter is better than 50 dead people and the active shooter still at large. Again this is in Wi.

Not going to play into this hypothetical on the internet and I would not want to test it in court. No link, as this was a verbal conversation in CCW class.

While is it a fair question, your hypothetical has so many variables so to purposely create a situation were the good guy still looses. We could unclutter the quandary and state there are only 2 people in the mall, the bad guy pulls a gun on the good guy, which is the most basic premise for CCW in the first place.
Thank you for making my point for me.
The quandary of mass shootings,which will ALWAYS involve more than two people or it wouldn't be a mass shooting scenario, makes the "good guy with a gun" or "arming all teachers" as inviable a solution to the problem as more gun control laws and "gun free zones".
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Old 05-15-2019, 12:08 PM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by Chemdawg99 View Post
Thank you for making my point for me.
The quandary of mass shootings,which will ALWAYS involve more than two people or it wouldn't be a mass shooting scenario, makes the "good guy with a gun" or "arming all teachers" as inviable a solution to the problem as more gun control laws and "gun free zones".
You're missing a key point (and you're doing it on purpose). Arming all teachers and other "good guy with a gun" are not proposed as a panacea which will solve 100% of all shooting without a single injury. They are proposed as better that what we have now. Right now, the bad guy will continue to kill as many people as he can find at his heart's content until the police eventually show up (far too late.) With an armed person available on-site, at least we have a chance of stopping the shooting earlier. While any death is a tragedy, I'd rather prefer the odds with a good guy resisting the killer than with no resistance (which is what happens now in "gun free" e.g. Criminal Protection Zones).



Originally Posted by Jackie N View Post
The Republicans had many years of opportunities since 1994 to effect positive change. What was done? I admire your optimism but it doesn't seem like either side of the aisle is much concerned about your liberties or maintaining the Christian values that previously held the country together.
It's not that the Republicans are all for gun rights. In fact there are many RINOs who are "squishy" on that platform. Tt's just that the Democrats (at least nationally) are universally united to take away our gun rights. With Republicans in control, we have a chance, with Dems in control, all will continue to go downhill fast... And there has been some positive change since 1994 (expiration of the AWB, and also the Heller & McDonald decisions)


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Old 05-15-2019, 01:10 PM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by xwing View Post
You're missing a key point (and you're doing it on purpose). Arming all teachers and other "good guy with a gun" are not proposed as a panacea which will solve 100% of all shooting without a single injury. They are proposed as better that what we have now. Right now, the bad guy will continue to kill as many people as he can find at his heart's content until the police eventually show up (far too late.) With an armed person available on-site, at least we have a chance of stopping the shooting earlier. While any death is a tragedy, I'd rather prefer the odds with a good guy resisting the killer than with no resistance (which is what happens now in "gun free" e.g. Criminal Protection Zones).
I'm not missing anything. I posit that it is you are ignoring the point I'm making. I'll restate my point just so that we are clear...

"Arming all teachers" and "good guy with a gun" are as inviable as "gun-free zones" and gun control laws. Nowhere in my comment did I suggest that people who proffer these solutions are characterizing them as panaceas, though I can see how you (or any other reasonable person) could draw that conclusion.
As I said in a previous post in this thread, it takes people pulling their heads out of the sand and...


-Get rid of gun safe zones (These zones are only safe for criminals)
-Be more vigilant/situationally aware. Many of these mass shooters threw up countless red flags that were ignored BEFORE they committed their crimes.
-Empower people to protect themselves and others, but only those that are willing.
-Stop giving mass shooters notoriety by never using their names in the media. Ever.
-Stop politicizing the problem. Guns are not the problem, people are.


The three bolded points are not a panacea either because violence is part of the human condition. The sooner people embrace that reality and take action, the better.
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Old 05-15-2019, 04:38 PM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by maybelooking View Post
The last sentence is true. So I say to liberals AMEND THE DAMN CONSTITUTION as set forth by the founders if you want to stomp on the 2nd.

Until that is done every single law that has been passed to infringe on my right is complete bullshit and I will not follow it.
You think it's up to you to choose which laws you want to follow and which you don't?
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Old 05-15-2019, 10:36 PM
  #90  
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Originally Posted by Jackie N View Post
The Republicans had many years of opportunities since 1994 to effect positive change. What was done? I admire your optimism but it doesn't seem like either side of the aisle is much concerned about your liberties or maintaining the Christian values that previously held the country together.
It is my opinion that Swamp continues to exist in large part by the amount of blackmail that can be called upon by the elites and sent to the fake news media for propagandizing the public.
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Old 05-16-2019, 08:02 AM
  #91  
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Default Yep, good word! Right in front of us they work him! ;)

Originally Posted by Zrxmax View Post
It is my opinion that Swamp continues to exist in large part by the amount of blackmail that can be called upon by the elites and sent to the fake news media for propagandizing the public.
Trump's owned!

Last edited by johnglenntwo; 05-16-2019 at 08:22 AM.
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Old 05-17-2019, 01:36 AM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by johnglenntwo View Post
Trump's owned!
TDS again? It appears you are owned by the leftist political hacks and their fake news media talking heads.

The fraud and corruption has been going on for decades and will likely exist until the world grows up.

Let us know when you wake up.
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Old 05-17-2019, 09:52 AM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by Dr Bee View Post
They're making America great again. They just decided to waste 2 years of full congressional control and NOW they're ready to make America great again.....
Yep.

Sort of how they had a plan to make healthcare better and touted "repeal and replace" for 7 years and then got the whole government and... *crickets*
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Old 05-17-2019, 11:46 AM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by US Icon View Post
I would not want to be at the described scene. In our CCW class (In Wi) the instructor brought up the exact scenario as you did - mall full of people and an active shooter and he stated a provision of good Samaritan law or similar that if the good guy accidentally shoots a few bystanders in an effort to kill the bad guy, he can't be charged. The logic being that a few harmed innocent people and a dead active shooter is better than 50 dead people and the active shooter still at large. Again this is in Wi.
That logic is pretty shaky. How do we know that "good guy" isn't killing those bystanders? You can't assume they're all simply "hurt".
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Old 05-17-2019, 12:17 PM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by pdiddy972 View Post
That logic is pretty shaky. How do we know that "good guy" isn't killing those bystanders? You can't assume they're all simply "hurt".
There largely 2 outcomes in the hypotherical mall scene. 1; the active shooter is killing 50 people and there are no sheepdogs to stop the wolf. 2; there is a sheepdog, or an LEO, who shoots the wolf and has a few stray rounds harm some bystanders and the wolf is stopped before he kills 4 sheep.

We can play out a hundred different scenarios that will attempt to squelch and good deeds by good men. But in the end there will always be evil scumbags, wolves, and democrats who will forever tax, regulate, and kill the good decent people who are not a burden on society and in return just wish to be left the **** alone.
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Old 05-17-2019, 05:50 PM
  #96  
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Originally Posted by US Icon View Post
…………...We can play out a hundred different scenarios that will attempt to squelch and good deeds by good men. But in the end there will always be evil scumbags, wolves, and democrats who will forever tax, regulate, and kill the good decent people who are not a burden on society and in return just wish to be left the **** alone.
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Old 05-17-2019, 07:02 PM
  #97  
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Default When they start rotating a immigration bill around!!! ;)

Originally Posted by johnglenntwo View Post
Revoke All new immigrant Citizenship until there is a Bipartisan bill. MAGA
Originally Posted by Zrxmax View Post
TDS again? It appears you are owned by the leftist political hacks and their fake news media talking heads.

The fraud and corruption has been going on for decades and will likely exist until the world grows up.

Let us know when you wake up.
Simple! Their three bills are added together and they red line until they are all satisfied! But - SOMEBODY wants it this way so most of us are to be dumb enough...

Last edited by johnglenntwo; 05-17-2019 at 07:04 PM.
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Old 05-18-2019, 03:42 AM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by johnglenntwo View Post
Simple! Their three bills are added together and they red line until they are all satisfied! But - SOMEBODY wants it this way so most of us are to be dumb enough...
Is that a sentence? Please try again.
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Old 05-18-2019, 07:13 AM
  #99  
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Originally Posted by Zrxmax View Post
Is that a sentence? Please try again.
The pathetic truth is most people are completely clueless and brainwashed, so it's hard for me to stomach it long enough to clear it up for just a relative few!

In other words, 'You are to be Confused!'

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Old 05-18-2019, 07:51 AM
  #100  
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The tree huggers are not going to take away our Corvettes but technology likely will over time. I heard a talk by the tech editor at Yahoo about the self-driving technology comming on line right now. Self driving trucks currently in testing with humans on-board as monitors.

One part of the talk was about sectors of the economy that will go away as this becomes more common. Car insurance which basically exists because of human error. With self driving cars, no need for insurance. Car ownership will also not be necessary as people can just call for a car when they need one. Once enough self-driving cars are in use and we humans keep crashing in to them (well not us because are cars are safely under car covers in the garage)there will be a push to eliminate human drivers. It’s a ways off, but not that far off. What is likely to occur is that large cities will restrict driving and those coming will park on outskirts and take self-directed vehicle in. Not likely to affect rural folks as suburbs would likely be next. The critical factor is human error. Bans on personal vehicles will be less likely than simply the cost, availability of vehicles and remaining insurance that will be through the roof. This is coming whether we like it or not. If the OP is over 50 he should be fine though he will see it happen in places where all those awful liberals live like New York and San Francisco. The personal car is our present day horse and buggy. Probably plenty of folks grousing about that back in the day. Times change, drive em now.

BTW, I’m not a tree hugger but I do like breathing.



Originally Posted by pologreen1 View Post
You are kidding yourself. You are owned. Even a self employed individual is owned.

Where I live there are no free spaces to live, no free place to hunt and fish, nothing to buy not taxed, nothing to do that does not require money except walk.

Taking away rights / creating laws is not evolving.

Many races were slaves, women voting was a scam, women in the work place is a scam. It is the more the merrier. " Why only employ the men? Let us employ and tax them ALL. Let them all pretend to vote on US."

Not saying owning people was right, but that is nowhere in the same world as owning tools That is silly talk. In fact I could argue a person that takes away my right to own something or protect myself and others is no different than a person that "owns" another and takes away their individual human experience.

One example is a human life or a being, the other is an item that PEOPLE deem for their own views as something not needed.

How about if tree huggers say "no more corvettes or sports cars" See how out of line that is? It is not okay, we are all here and entitled to OUR experience

Anything is a weapon if intended, so who ever is against "fire arms" should carry one and do more with their life. Maybe hug people more to spread love instead of focusing on what they can take away from others.

People and predators are bad. Guns were created / evolved over time to solve these problems.

Evolving would mean we solved the root problem that is what makes people want to do bad things to other beings.

Last edited by Brunello; 05-18-2019 at 07:52 AM.
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