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Are you a Christian Atheist?

 
Old 05-13-2019, 11:18 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by GrandSportC3 View Post
I used to be catholic but I came to realize that there is no evidence to suggest that god exists. While I keep an open mind to look at evidence if presented, as of right now, I don't see anything that would be convincing evidence. I do believe that Jesus existed but that he was not supernatural or the son of god. My wife is Christian and I do celebrate Christian Holidays like Christmas, Easter etc. with my family but only for "Tradition" as reason and not because I believe in a higher being. If it wasn't for my family, I would care less of those Holidays..
Not sure if I would fit your definition of a Christian Atheist or not.. All that matters is that based on current evidence (or lack thereof), I do NOT believe in any deity.
Kind of where I am. I don't do Easter as it has no meaning for me, but I enjoy Christmas. For me, it's more of a family thing. Having said that, I would put it below Thanksgiving.
Originally Posted by birdsmith View Post

That is the Bible message in a nutshell-you can invest all of your human might into living whatever you think might be a godly, righteous, upright, decent, even holy life, but apart from establishing a real relationship with God through the knowledge and acceptance of His Son Jesus Christ you are essentially wasting your time.
So you can live a decent and moral life, but if you don't believe Jesus is the son of God, then you're fucked? That's pretty dickish, don't you think?
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Old 05-13-2019, 11:31 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by brassplyer View Post
Your sentence is meaningless word salad, one doesn't claim their lack of information to invalidate a point made by another - that wasn't in any way the point being made. You're trying to ignore the unavoidable point that *was* made that all the answers not being known in no way serves to *validate* religion though it's a common yet always fallacious assertion of the religious. The religious have the burden of proof of substantiating their claims, they can't cite the limits of current scientific knowledge as "proof" that their beliefs are valid. One has no bearing on the other.

Further I know more than enough science to invalidate many religious claims - such as the notion of the Noah's Ark story being true. Now we get to eat popcorn and watch the religious argue amongst themselves as to whether and which parts of the Bible are to be taken literally.
Do you think the bible was written by scientists ?
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Old 05-13-2019, 11:34 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by VegasJen View Post
So you can live a decent and moral life, but if you don't believe Jesus is the son of God, then you're fucked? That's pretty dickish, don't you think?
Nope. Throughout the entire Bible, God offers his creation mercy before judgement.
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Old 05-14-2019, 02:09 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by brassplyer View Post
Thomas Jefferson considered himself just such a variety of "Christian". He liked some of what was attributed to the alleged figure of Jesus but rejected the notion that he was the son of a deity. He even re-wrote the Bible to his liking to reflect this.

This is why the religious right faction of the Texas board of ed wants Jefferson - founding father, third POTUS and primary author of the DoI - redacted from American History textbooks - the reality of his beliefs doesn't fit their baseless "America is a Christian nation" narrative.


The religious as a whole are quite selective in what they decide to adhere to.
I personally really don't care what sort of Christian Jefferson considered himself to be. He had a reputation for being 'oblique', for playing devil's advocate, and for being a troublemaker at times. ANYBODY can call themselves a Christian. As they say, standing in a garage and calling myself a car doesn't make me a car.

As for America being a "Christian nation", you stating that it is "baseless" doesn't make it so. Such a statement is essentially nebulous, though. How many Americans would have to be Christian to qualify America as "Christian"...? The TX BOE's position is that nearly all of the republic's founders DID identify as Christians, all but a very few as Protestants, so they brought that into the tone and tenor of the founding documents that they wrote.

You seem quite sure that us being a Christian nation presents a problem. As a Christian myself I am quite sure that we would do well to do exactly that...
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Old 05-14-2019, 02:14 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by ifitgoesfast View Post
You do understand why I started the thread, right?
Since you didn't state it up front, and I'm no mindreader, no, I don't.

If this is connected to another thread somewhere, I missed it. Please clue me in.

I tried answering your question as clearly as I could...
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Old 05-14-2019, 02:58 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by VegasJen View Post
Kind of where I am. I don't do Easter as it has no meaning for me, but I enjoy Christmas. For me, it's more of a family thing. Having said that, I would put it below Thanksgiving.

So you can live a decent and moral life, but if you don't believe Jesus is the son of God, then you're fucked? That's pretty dickish, don't you think?
Irrespective of hundreds of years of prophecy leading up to Jesus' birth, the way in which Jesus lived his life and taught what He taught, and how He was accused, tried, died, and was resurrected, I would say you have a point. Such a statement might easily seem "dickish"

But when one takes into proper consideration (1) centuries of remarkably prophetic writings from people who had really no idea who they were really writing about (2) That He was born according to these writings and spent the next 33 years fulfilling things written about Him in an uncannily accurate fashion (3) That, being utterly innocent of any crime of any sort He was accused of blasphemy, tried, exchanged for a guilty man in order to gain a phony conviction, flogged nearly to death, and hung on a cross to die (4) Appeared to hundreds of people alive after disappearing from His tomb, eventually disappearing from Earth...one might logically conclude that perhaps His statements do actually deserve some attention...some of which would be...

-That human righteousness is as "filthy rags" before God (Isaiah 64:4-9). We are sinners, and in and of ourselves are incapable of living such a sinless life as to attain to the throne of God
-That human sin deserves punishment (I could quote dozens if not hundreds of scriptures that corroborate this, please read Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, you get the picture. Do Hitler, Stalin, et al deserve to be punished or are we all just supposed to accept their existence as a consequence of life on Earth?)
-That God did provide a substitutionary alternative for sin's punishment (animal sacrifice as outlined in hundreds of Old Testament passages)
-And that finally, Jesus Christ was the fulfillment of the human inadequacy/sin/punishment/sacrifice dilemma.

He taught as much during his short life on Earth (if the Gospels are to be believed) on His stature as the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy ("If you've seen Me, you've seen the Father", "I and the Father are One", "before Abraham was, I AM", etc., etc.) as He did offering people commentary as to how they should or should not live. The very essence of His teaching was that "yes, you ought to live as God directs, but you cannot really do that without Me" (John 15:5, John 13:8).

Jesus most assuredly did NOT advocate for religion, and He showed very public and open contempt for those who hid behind Jewish religion by praying loudly out in public in their flowing robes, etc. while they were inwardly raging hypocrites. HE taught how to have a RELATIONSHIP with the Creator of the Universe by KNOWING HIM. The Gospels were a revelation of His life, His thoughts, and therefore God's very HEART.

So to KNOW Him was to have your sins forgiven, thereby ERASING the issue of the sin problem that we ALL have between ourselves and God. HE is the ONLY way by which we can attain to God's throne.

You might say "But God, you don't know what it's like down here!!" But He does, because he actually became one of us and suffered the most undeserved and wretched death that a human could possibly have to endure. He has done everything He possibly could to know YOU. All you have to do to know HIM is to sincerely confess your sins and failings before Him and ask Him to take charge of your life. I figured that since He made me, he could be trusted with that. He has yet to prove me wrong...

So, if you want to call that "dickish", go right ahead. I think it's a pretty generous offer myself.
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Old 05-14-2019, 05:46 AM
  #47  
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The Glory of God is all around. It is shown clearly in the flowers, the trees, the animals, the movement of celestial bodies, the beauty of a sunset, our conscious mind and hands we have that create, the testimony of the Church, the millions of martyrs and other who spread the Gospel who have the Holy Spirit in them. The evidence of God is literally everywhere but people deny it and look to the fairly tale that we are a byproduct of a chemical reaction that somehow achieved continuous higher order and therefore not subject to God. Their denial of God's existence will not negate the reality that He does exist.

Matthew 10:31-33 So don’t be afraid; you are more valuable to God than a whole flock of sparrows. “Everyone who acknowledges me publicly here on earth, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. But everyone who denies me here on earth, I will also deny before my Father in heaven."
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Old 05-14-2019, 06:02 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by PatternDayTrader View Post
Do you think the bible was written by scientists ?

Mostly drunks.
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Old 05-14-2019, 06:20 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by shane p View Post
Mostly drunks.
Lol.
Perhaps, but if that's the case, they sure got a lot of things right.
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Old 05-14-2019, 06:45 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by birdsmith View Post
I personally really don't care what sort of Christian Jefferson considered himself to be. He had a reputation for being 'oblique', for playing devil's advocate, and for being a troublemaker at times. ANYBODY can call themselves a Christian. As they say, standing in a garage and calling myself a car doesn't make me a car.
Jefferson was crystal clear in his opinions about Christianity. Here is an extract of a letter to William Short who had been Jefferson's private secretary when he was minister in Paris, 1786-1789.

Monticello, October 31, 1819

...But the greatest of all the reformers of the depraved religion of His own country was Jesus of Nazareth. Abstracting what is really His from the rubbish in which he is buried, easily distinguished by its lustre from the dross of His biographers, and as separable from that as the diamond from the dunghill, we have the outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man; outlines which it is lamentable He did not live to fill up. Epictetus and Epicurus give laws for governing ourselves, Jesus a supplement of the duties and charities we owe to others The establishment of the innocent and genuine character of this benevolent Moralist, and the rescuing it from the imputation of imposture which has resulted from [misconstructions of his words by his pretended votaries] artificial systems*, invented by ultra-Christian sects, unauthorized by a single word ever uttered by Him, is a most desirable object...

*e.g. the immaculate conception of Jesus, his deification, the creation of the world by him, his miraculous powers, his resurrection & visible ascension, his corporeal presence in the Eucharist, the Trinity, original sin, atonement, regeneration, election orders of Hierarchy, etc.
Jefferson thought of Christ as a great philosopher and moralist, not a deity, and that none of the miracles attributed to him were real.
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Old 05-14-2019, 07:45 AM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by jcsperson View Post
Jefferson was crystal clear in his opinions about Christianity. Here is an extract of a letter to William Short who had been Jefferson's private secretary when he was minister in Paris, 1786-1789.
Jefferson thought of Christ as a great philosopher and moralist, not a deity, and that none of the miracles attributed to him were real.
I think you're making my point. In vulgar terms, he was a smart dude, but contrary to Biblical counsel "thought more highly of himself than he ought". As such I tend to have limited regard for his true importance in the context of early American history.

The founders of the Republic were clearly faced with a dilemma...they were for the most part strident Christian believers, who had lived lives of sincere faith and had seen the hand of God in their own daily lives, and were faced with figuring out how to allow God's providence to reign over this society without trying to impose it through governmental force as the British had done. Their solution- the representative, semi-secular republic that we have today-seemed for many years to be the best governmental solution that any society had yet arrived at, but as the Christian foundations of the country continue to face attack after attack I am becoming more and more convinced that saving it will require a miracle of some sort...

Last edited by birdsmith; 05-14-2019 at 07:52 AM.
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Old 05-14-2019, 07:50 AM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by birdsmith View Post
Originally Posted by brassplyer
Thomas Jefferson considered himself just such a variety of "Christian". He liked some of what was attributed to the alleged figure of Jesus but rejected the notion that he was the son of a deity. He even re-wrote the Bible to his liking to reflect this.

This is why the religious right faction of the Texas board of ed wants Jefferson - founding father, third POTUS and primary author of the DoI - redacted from American History textbooks - the reality of his beliefs doesn't fit their baseless "America is a Christian nation" narrative.

The religious as a whole are quite selective in what they decide to adhere to.


I personally really don't care what sort of Christian Jefferson considered himself to be.
What you care about doesn't change the facts re: Jefferson.

He had a reputation for being 'oblique', for playing devil's advocate, and for being a troublemaker at times.
Lol - King George considered all the Founders and Framers to be "troublemakers".

ANYBODY can call themselves a Christian. As they say, standing in a garage and calling myself a car doesn't make me a car.
And a lot of "Christians" consider themselves to be the arbiters of what/who a "true Christian" actually is or isn't, which sect of Christianity in the "true" one, which of the various bibles is the correct one. The Bible is sufficiently contradictory and disjointed that they can all cite portions of their favored version and claim to be faithful adherents. Funny how you could put 100 random "Christians" in a room and they'll never come to a consensus as to exactly what "Christianity" actually means. The Catholic church lays claim to evolving directly from Jesus, others say it's a corruption of "true" Christianity. The Westboro Baptist goobers can cite scripture all day to demonstrate why "God" is on their side.

As for America being a "Christian nation", you stating that it is "baseless" doesn't make it so. Such a statement is essentially nebulous, though. How many Americans would have to be Christian to qualify America as "Christian"...? The TX BOE's position is that nearly all of the republic's founders DID identify as Christians, all but a very few as Protestants, so they brought that into the tone and tenor of the founding documents that they wrote.
The bias embraced by the Christian conservative members of the TX BOE is irrelevant to the reality that what makes the United States of America the United States is the founding charter - the Declaration of Independence and Constitution - not the religiosity or lack thereof of the Founders and Framers or the citizenry. Jefferson's reference to "Creator" and "Nature's God" in the DoI aren't specifically to a biblical god. It's absurd to claim a Christian basis to the Constitution for various reasons. There's no model for a constitutional republic in the Bible. Further, it's not an accident that there are no biblical references in the law outlined in the Constitution. "Jesus", "Bible", "Christ/Christian(ity)" appear nowhere in the body of the Constitution. There are two references to religion in the Constitution and they're both to explicitly, unambiguously exclude religion from the public sphere - no state religion and no religious test to hold public office. The Founders were breaking away from a country where religion *did* hold force of law. Earlier charters of certain colonies included specific biblical references, there are none in the Constitution.

You seem quite sure that us being a Christian nation presents a problem.
I'm quite sure that the claim is both incorrect and a moot point. The Constitution applies equally whether one is a Hindu, Catholic or an atheist.
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Old 05-14-2019, 09:14 AM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by VegasJen View Post
Kind of where I am. I don't do Easter as it has no meaning for me, but I enjoy Christmas. For me, it's more of a family thing. Having said that, I would put it below Thanksgiving.
Easter Egg hunt is popular with my kids, so we do celebrate.. It's not really religion themed..
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Old 05-14-2019, 09:43 AM
  #54  
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god MADE ME to accept things as they are then to judge them and behave accordingly........ and trump PROTECTS my liberty to do so

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Old 05-14-2019, 09:59 AM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by 30YR W8T View Post
If we are going to play on the fringe here, let me throw one out there. Ever considered the possibility of harnessing the power of the mind to the point we can project an aspect of ourselves, over vast distances and observe what we otherwise simple could not? All the restrictions and hurdles associated with physical travel would be eliminated, faster than light travel would be irrelevant, because we would have surpassed that limit several times over via transportation at the speed of thought with the only limitation being the capacity of our mind.

Astral projection, spirit walking and other concepts have existed for centuries going back thousand of years and you have to wonder, were there individuals who were capable of actually doing this? OBE is something that has been the topic of study and research trying to understand what causes these events to happen or as some would argue, perceived to happen. Problem for those who think it is not possible, is case after case of people describing things they could not have know or seen from the position they were in. Second is advancements in medical research have documented brain activities that are specifically linked with these events, indicating there is indeed something going on.

Interesting stuff to ponder and people should never forget that what was once thought of as crazy talk and SI-Fi imagination, is now a reality. We can face time with a friend on the other side of the planet with a little hand held device now. 60 years ago you would have been called a kook for suggesting that was going to be possible in the near future.
holy ****** wow. this explains why you **** on actual science and preach dianetics or other silly fiction. astral projection, AHAHAHAHAHA!

Originally Posted by Themack View Post
Yes, unfortunately in medicine especially in the field of psychology they dismiss anything that has any form of conjecture or prophetic sense as pseudoscience, and a chance in the laboratory as wasted time and research funds, this is the problem. We now have more stuff coming out of hollywood syfy than our own military has. You know that whole abortion thing?.. Well, once the science can prove that the spirit is reincarnated into the baby around the 3 week mark in the womb, and a abortion is committed then it is considered murder.
yes. it's dismissed because it's fiction and not real. please tell us where science can PROVE the spirit of anything is reincarnated into any baby.

oh, please tell us. let me get some popcorn...
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Old 05-14-2019, 11:24 AM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by PatternDayTrader View Post
Lol.
Perhaps, but if that's the case, they sure got a lot of things right.


Ya, but they got a lot more wrong than right.
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Old 05-14-2019, 11:31 AM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by Sifu-TZ View Post
yes. it's dismissed because it's fiction and not real. please tell us where science can PROVE the spirit of anything is reincarnated into any baby.

oh, please tell us. let me get some popcorn...
It's dismissed because we have case studies where we solve from what we know already and slowly progress at that rate of mercy of how fast our science advances. You do know homosexuality for example was in the DSM-3 until 1973 as a mental disorder, and they use to put idiot savants in asylums right? You would be a crackpot if you told even people in WW1 what a integrated circuit chip is capable of. You can't jump from point A to Z without going through the alphabet.
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Old 05-14-2019, 12:03 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by Themack View Post
It's dismissed because we have case studies where we solve from what we know already and slowly progress at that rate of mercy of how fast our science advances. You do know homosexuality for example was in the DSM-3 until 1973 as a mental disorder, and they use to put idiot savants in asylums right? You would be a crackpot if you told even people in WW1 what a integrated circuit chip is capable of. You can't jump from point A to Z without going through the alphabet.

I'm very aware of the developments made in the field of psychology. we do not have any evidence whatsoever of spirits/entitites/ghosts/kelpies/phantoms going into, out of, or around anything.

conflating these with advances in science is making a mockery of the institution.
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Old 05-14-2019, 12:24 PM
  #59  
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I was raised the son of an ordained fundamentalist minister to be a minister. I chose the Navy over the seminary.

I have been a borderline atheist since my early teenage years. I consider myself to be an agnostic humorist. I don't know if there are supernatural beings, but I see a lot of humor in those who try to convince me they have the only true answers.
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Old 05-14-2019, 12:32 PM
  #60  
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Pastafarian here. FSM!
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