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Are you a Christian Atheist?

 
Old 05-15-2019, 11:29 PM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by Duck916 View Post
Maybe not, but my cat is SURE he is God.


Anyway, as to the topic, I think most American atheists are "Christian" in the sense that they grew up in a culture largely dominated by Christian ethics (and I'm including myself here). I acknowledge that modern Christianity is pretty solid on ethics, but that doesn't mean that those ethics came directly from a supreme being or the Bible. Rather, Christian ethics are the result of hundreds of years of Christian thinkers applying their interpretation to the allegorical stories contained in the Bible with a healthy dose of practical secular reasoning.

And while I am an atheist, that doesn't mean that I reject the possibility there is a creator of the universe. I think there probably is a creator. I just don't think he/she/it wrote the Bible nor do I think the creator is accurately described there.
Then you are not an atheist.
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Old 05-16-2019, 06:38 AM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by Duck916 View Post
And while I am an atheist, that doesn't mean that I reject the possibility there is a creator of the universe. I think there probably is a creator. I just don't think he/she/it wrote the Bible nor do I think the creator is accurately described there.
That's Deism, Jefferson and Franklin were Deists.
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Old 05-16-2019, 07:28 AM
  #83  
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The Christian Atheist may even attend Sunday Service and never disclose to you that they reject the existence of God or any supernatural aspect of Jesus.
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Old 05-16-2019, 07:32 AM
  #84  
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Born and raised Catholic, but the older I get the more I question basic religious teachings.
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Old 05-16-2019, 07:56 AM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by Dueysan View Post
The Glory of God is all around. It is shown clearly in the flowers, the trees, the animals, the movement of celestial bodies, the beauty of a sunset, our conscious mind and hands we have that create, the testimony of the Church, the millions of martyrs and other who spread the Gospel who have the Holy Spirit in them. The evidence of God is literally everywhere but people deny it and look to the fairly tale that we are a byproduct of a chemical reaction that somehow achieved continuous higher order and therefore not subject to God. Their denial of God's existence will not negate the reality that He does exist.

Matthew 10:31-33 So don’t be afraid; you are more valuable to God than a whole flock of sparrows. “Everyone who acknowledges me publicly here on earth, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. But everyone who denies me here on earth, I will also deny before my Father in heaven."
All it takes is a miracle, hope and faith.

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Old 05-16-2019, 11:12 AM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by Duck916 View Post
Maybe not, but my cat is SURE he is God.


Anyway, as to the topic, I think most American atheists are "Christian" in the sense that they grew up in a culture largely dominated by Christian ethics (and I'm including myself here). I acknowledge that modern Christianity is pretty solid on ethics, but that doesn't mean that those ethics came directly from a supreme being or the Bible. Rather, Christian ethics are the result of hundreds of years of Christian thinkers applying their interpretation to the allegorical stories contained in the Bible with a healthy dose of practical secular reasoning.

And while I am an atheist, that doesn't mean that I reject the possibility there is a creator of the universe. I think there probably is a creator. I just don't think he/she/it wrote the Bible nor do I think the creator is accurately described there.
Very well stated. Probably the only difference for me is that I doubt there is a creator, but must concede it's possible.
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Old 05-16-2019, 11:26 AM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by PatternDayTrader View Post
Originally Posted by brassplyer


I subscribe to it's a ridiculous, impossible story that's as full of holes as a Hollywood superhero movie version
Sounds like you missed the point of the story. Totally.
Not at all - the point is:

Worship the omniscient, omnipotent Lord because the omniscient, omnipotent Lord keeps botching the job of making people who'll do what he wants and the only way he can think of to resolve the issue is to wipe most of ya'll out with a flood that requires more water than exists on the planet after he has this 600 year old man and his boys build a boat that can't possibly be seaworthy with the technology they have out of materials they don't have and that isn't nearly big enough to hold the cargo it's supposed to hold, cargo that they would have no way of actually finding in parts of the world they don't know exists, transporting (I wanna see them get those polar bears to the Middle East), feeding either on the way to or on the boat, or providing a proper environment for. These diverse critters with various different environmental and dietary needs are just going to sit in perfect harmony in the pitch-black hold of this impossible boat for a year and it's all going to be good. Noah and his boys of course don't have any way of returning these critters to their original habitats (are those walruses going to belly flop down off the mountain and back to and back to where they came from?) the ecosystems of which are destroyed anyway so they'd all starve to death, which they would have done before Noah ever got them near the too-small, unseaworthy boat to begin with.

Oh, the Lord can make it all happen you say. Even though he couldn't simply bypass all this nonsense and create people who behave to his liking to begin with or wave one of his Sistine Chapel fingers and change them.

Hmmm...
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Old 05-16-2019, 11:32 AM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by brassplyer View Post
Not at all - the point is:

Worship the omniscient, omnipotent Lord because the omniscient, omnipotent Lord keeps botching the job of making people who'll do what he wants and the only way he can think of to resolve the issue is to wipe most of ya'll out with a flood that requires more water than exists on the planet after he has this 600 year old man and his boys build a boat that can't possibly be seaworthy with the technology they have out of materials they don't have and that isn't nearly big enough to hold the cargo it's supposed to hold, cargo that they would have no way of actually finding in parts of the world they don't know exists, transporting (I wanna see them get those polar bears to the Middle East), feeding either on the way to or on the boat, or providing a proper environment for. These diverse critters with various different environmental and dietary needs are just going to sit in perfect harmony in the pitch-black hold of this impossible boat for a year and it's all going to be good. Noah and his boys of course don't have any way of returning these critters to their original habitats (are those walruses going to belly flop down off the mountain and back to and back to where they came from?) the ecosystems of which are destroyed anyway so they'd all starve to death, which they would have done before Noah ever got them near the too-small, unseaworthy boat to begin with.

Oh, the Lord can make it all happen you say. Even though he couldn't simply bypass all this nonsense and create people who behave to his liking to begin with or wave one of his Sistine Chapel fingers and change them.

Hmmm...
Lol. No.
Let me help you.

The story of Noah and his ark is about being prepared for catastrophe. Only the prepared can save himself, and if that preparation is extensive enough, he might save himself and all the things that are important to him.
You must think the bible is a science paper.
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Old 05-16-2019, 11:45 AM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by PatternDayTrader View Post
Lol. No.
Let me help you.

The story of Noah and his ark is about being prepared for catastrophe. Only the prepared can save himself, and if that preparation is extensive enough, he might save himself and all the things that are important to him.
You must think the bible is a science paper.

You mean it really didnt happen? Interesting, a lot of the bible thumpers say it did happen.
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Old 05-16-2019, 11:55 AM
  #90  
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Originally Posted by shane p View Post
You mean it really didnt happen? Interesting, a lot of the bible thumpers say it did happen.
Yeah well I don't have that problem.
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Old 05-16-2019, 12:30 PM
  #91  
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Originally Posted by PatternDayTrader View Post
The story of Noah and his ark is about being prepared for catastrophe. Only the prepared can save himself, and if that preparation is extensive enough, he might save himself and all the things that are important to him.
Lol - well, that's probably no more silly an interpretation than others.

You must think the bible is a science paper.
I promise you I don't.
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Old 05-16-2019, 12:30 PM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by shane p View Post
You mean it really didnt happen? Interesting, a lot of the bible thumpers say it did happen.
The entire Bible is replete with accounts of supernatural visitations of an infinitely powerful being who appears at His own discretion...

A couple years ago when I was fortunate to visit Israel my wife and I had a tour guide who was born and raised there, 69 years old, he was not an orthodox Jew but he was quite familiar with the Old Testament writings, and when I asked him what he thought of these obviously outlandish and incredible accounts of God's seemingly random intervention in the affairs of man and specifically the Jewish people...

...he just kind of shrugged his shoulders...neither wholeheartedly accepted them or denied them. But for me, to visit Israel, to go to Jerusalem and actually see many of the places described in Biblical texts, to see places like the Jordan River and the Sea of Galilee and the Dead Sea and the fortress at Masada was eye-opening to say the least. I myself have to admit that it's impossible not to doubt somewhat the fantastic nature of an account like Noah's Ark, but then I ask "If it's just a ridiculous made-up fantasy, why on Earth would somebody make up a fantastical story like that and then go to such lengths to preserve it down through the ages?"

For me, I HAVE to keep going back to what I see as absolute basic observed reality, and compare that with what scripture says about it. David wrote "The fool hath said in his heart, 'there is no God'". That makes sense to me-I cannot look at the Earth I live on (let alone what I see of the Universe around me) and surmise that it somehow was not the work of an unimaginably powerful creative force. It is the sheer height of ridiculous folly to think that all of this just appeared and somehow assembled itself into what we see today purely at random, without any influence from any external intelligence and power. I don't care how many billions of years you think it took, it is utterly stupid to believe that the Earth and the Universe within which it exists are some kind of cosmic accident. To believe in a Creator is simply academic, it's the only obvious, sensible conclusion that any rational person could arrive at, and I could not care less how many times you want to throw names like Bill Nye, Carl Sagan, Darwin, Stephen Hawking, or any of the other non-God peddlers at me...

So, if I look at the width and breadth and depth of God's spectacular creation around me, it then becomes a little easier to accept that if He could make this at all, He could miraculously move in and out of this stuff He created whenever and wherever He wanted to. He transcends time and space. He could give us five tactile senses and still do what He does outside of our physical perception. These things WOULD be possible. Fantastic, maybe, but when put into the context of the One who not only made but controls the movements of galaxies, stars, black holes, quasars, all sorts of weird planets and moons and their solar systems...if there IS a singular intelligent force behind all this, then He ("It" if you insist) could pretty much reach down here to this planet and among its people (whom He claims to have "Created in His image and likeness") and do ANY sort of miraculous thing, whenever and wherever He wants.

The atheist looks at the world that he or she lives in, sees the daily routine (what appears "normal" and "consistent") within the finite context of his or her limited life, and when confronted with the possibility of a Divine Creator that might have occasionally and irrespective of time and space visited this planet and done something outside the realm of the normal, and says "That's ridiculous-it's just not possible!"...

...But I myself have had a few of these tiny little visitations that an unbeliever might just write off as coincidence, whereas I saw them as a glimpse of the supernatural, as evidence of the Biblical claim that the God who says that He loves me really DOES love me. He made me along with 7 billion others like me and for some reason occasionally floats through the events of my life...

I get a kind of encouragement from that-that there really is an eternal quality to my existence, that even though I sin and fall short I am forgiven and I have a relationship with this incredibly powerful mystical "thing". He comes and goes as He pleases-He doesn't always visit me when I want Him to, and sometimes He visits me when I don't want Him to, He is definitely the one in control, I am the subject and NOT the object (contrary to how the typical atheist might think).

When Paul dictated 1 Corinthians 13 he observed that "we see through a glass, darkly" as though looking through stained glass at the cosmos around us. God only gives us an occasional glimpse. To some, this means that He does not exist, because they can't see Him. But to me, the little that I do get a glimpse of is enough to think "If I can somehow get close to Him and live forever, beyond this world, I REALLY want to do that"

I really cannot understand why an intelligent person would ever want to deny themselves the possibility of that...

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Old 05-16-2019, 12:33 PM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by brassplyer View Post
Not at all - the point is:

Worship the omniscient, omnipotent Lord because the omniscient, omnipotent Lord keeps botching the job of making people who'll do what he wants and the only way he can think of to resolve the issue is to wipe most of ya'll out with a flood that requires more water than exists on the planet after he has this 600 year old man and his boys build a boat that can't possibly be seaworthy with the technology they have out of materials they don't have and that isn't nearly big enough to hold the cargo it's supposed to hold, cargo that they would have no way of actually finding in parts of the world they don't know exists, transporting (I wanna see them get those polar bears to the Middle East), feeding either on the way to or on the boat, or providing a proper environment for. These diverse critters with various different environmental and dietary needs are just going to sit in perfect harmony in the pitch-black hold of this impossible boat for a year and it's all going to be good. Noah and his boys of course don't have any way of returning these critters to their original habitats (are those walruses going to belly flop down off the mountain and back to and back to where they came from?) the ecosystems of which are destroyed anyway so they'd all starve to death, which they would have done before Noah ever got them near the too-small, unseaworthy boat to begin with.

Oh, the Lord can make it all happen you say. Even though he couldn't simply bypass all this nonsense and create people who behave to his liking to begin with or wave one of his Sistine Chapel fingers and change them.

Hmmm...
Yeah, that's the same complaints I hear from many of your fellow atheists here in PRC. I too think that scenario is rather preposterous. But, at the risk of painting with a broad brush, there does appear to be no shortage of atheists who think they're experts on what the Bible actually says.

I'm more comfortable with the original Hebrew version and the actual verses in the Bible.
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Old 05-16-2019, 12:46 PM
  #94  
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Another good one is a young girl ends up magically pregnant.
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Old 05-16-2019, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by VegasJen View Post
Very well stated. Probably the only difference for me is that I doubt there is a creator, but must concede it's possible.
Well, ponder some physics. The universe has a start date. Anything that starts has a cause/creator. Our three dimensions, and time, had a start date. The laws of physics that govern this universe says that matter is neither created nor destroyed, yet it suddenly appeared, somehow. The matter and energy had to come from somewhere outside of this universe (and its four dimensions). Something that is not constrained by our laws of physics must be the source of our universe.

The source/Creator of our universe has to be outside time and dimension, and incredibly powerful.
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Old 05-16-2019, 12:58 PM
  #96  
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Originally Posted by shane p View Post
Another good one is a young girl ends up magically pregnant.
How's progress going on that Right vs Wrong chart?
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Old 05-16-2019, 01:09 PM
  #97  
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Originally Posted by NDMIKE88 View Post
Born and raised Catholic, but the older I get the more I question basic religious teachings.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with questioning things. It's a necessary endeavor to separate the wheat from the chaff.
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Old 05-16-2019, 01:18 PM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by brassplyer View Post
Not at all - the point is:

Worship the omniscient, omnipotent Lord because the omniscient, omnipotent Lord keeps botching the job of making people who'll do what he wants and the only way he can think of to resolve the issue is to wipe most of ya'll out with a flood that requires more water than exists on the planet after he has this 600 year old man and his boys build a boat that can't possibly be seaworthy with the technology they have out of materials they don't have and that isn't nearly big enough to hold the cargo it's supposed to hold, cargo that they would have no way of actually finding in parts of the world they don't know exists, transporting (I wanna see them get those polar bears to the Middle East), feeding either on the way to or on the boat, or providing a proper environment for. These diverse critters with various different environmental and dietary needs are just going to sit in perfect harmony in the pitch-black hold of this impossible boat for a year and it's all going to be good. Noah and his boys of course don't have any way of returning these critters to their original habitats (are those walruses going to belly flop down off the mountain and back to and back to where they came from?) the ecosystems of which are destroyed anyway so they'd all starve to death, which they would have done before Noah ever got them near the too-small, unseaworthy boat to begin with.

Oh, the Lord can make it all happen you say. Even though he couldn't simply bypass all this nonsense and create people who behave to his liking to begin with or wave one of his Sistine Chapel fingers and change them.

Hmmm...
Perhaps you're confusing "couldn't" with "wouldn't"...or "didn't"

HONESTLY NOW...Has the thought ever crossed your oh-so-superior mind that you are not the object of God's creation but just one of billions upon billions of SUBJECTS, and that this God that you clearly despise so much neither does nor needs to answer to...you?

An astute observer looks at observable evidence and then makes observations or perhaps even draws educated conclusions based upon what he or she sees from that evidence.

An ignorant observer draws a conclusion beforehand, without honestly examining the evidence around them.

Regardless of the outlandish nature of some Biblical claims (and I agree-they certainly do SEEM outlandish), the underlying message in all of these claims is that there is an inestimably powerful force in this Universe, that created the Universe and the Earth. Moreover, as the products of that being's power, we are SUBJECT to His whim and will. Your continuous denial of that reality won't make it go away...
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Old 05-16-2019, 01:22 PM
  #99  
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Originally Posted by shane p View Post
Another good one is a young girl ends up magically pregnant.

Except that it wasn't magic. It was God... and if he wanted you dead before the end of this sentence, it would happen regardless of your physical condition or desires.
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Old 05-16-2019, 01:38 PM
  #100  
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Originally Posted by VegasJen View Post
Very well stated. Probably the only difference for me is that I doubt there is a creator, but must concede it's possible.

Maybe it's wishful thinking on my part. It just seems odd that there would be no purpose at all. And by purpose I am not speaking of a purpose for us little ol' humans, but for this huge, magnificent universe. If there is a creator, I strongly doubt he/she/it sees us as particularly meaningful.
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