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H1B Denials 'Skyrocketing'

 
Old 05-13-2019, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Red99SS View Post
But that's like saying "There's no point in drilling for oil in Alaska, we won't see it for ten years!" and then ten years later saying "There's no point in drilling for oil in Alaska, we won't see it for ten years!"
Nobody said that. What was said is that the need for more docs has been recognized and from the perspective of building more med schools or expanding them, it takes time. It is being done. but it is a very slow process.

As for residency slots, fixing that problem could be started today if congress were to pass a bill to provide more funding.

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Old 05-13-2019, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by vette6799 View Post
Nobody said that. What was said is that the need for more docs has been recognized and from the perspective of building more med schools or expanding them, it takes time. It is being done. but it is a very slow process.

As for residency slots, fixing that problem could be started today if congress were to pass a bill to provide more funding.
Is there really a shortage of medical schools? Or are you talking about lowering admission standards, adding schools, and then increasing the throughput?
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Old 05-13-2019, 08:33 AM
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I'm all for cutting down on immigration for those immigrants with low qualification.. H1B visas are issued for highly qualified immigrants who are very unlikely to ever consume more in social benefits than they pay into the system. Unlike Illegal and low qualified immigrants, H1B is a great way to bring people to the country that contribute more than they take out and are a benefit to the country.

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Old 05-13-2019, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Viking0728 View Post
True story About 10 years ago I tried to sponsor research with a large Florida university that was related to defense. In the graduate computer engineering program, I had a hard time finding a US Citizen to do the work. If you want to cut H1B visas, you better start getting your kids into STEM or we as a country are going to fall behind.

In India, the top students that can't get into Indian Institutes of Technology use our top schools as fall back programs. We have less than 400 million in population. China and India together have 2.5 BILLION. Guess who is going to have more STEM students.
Originally Posted by GrandSportC3 View Post
I'm all for cutting down on immigration for those immigrants with low qualification.. H1B visas are issued for highly qualified immigrants who are very unlikely to ever consume more in social benefits than they pay into the system. Unlike Illegal and low qualified immigrants, H1B is a great way to bring people to the country that contribute more than they take out and are a benefit to the country.

A major part of the reason you don't have more US students is that most of the places in STEM programs are already taken by foreign students. They come on student visas, take our places at schools and then get an H1B and get hired on the BS that "there aren't enough US people to hire". I got my FAA A & P certification and wanted to add a few core classes to turn it into a degree. Enrollment is done on-line- with some sort of pre-enrollment for minorities first. To be in the first round of enrollment, you have to have attended the school the previous semester. To do so I took courses on subjects I enjoyed to stay eligible. The degree was around 40 credits, and I gave up when I had almost 100 credits and still couldn't get the 3 classes I needed. When I tried to go to the first day's class and have the professor add me to the roster, it was ALWAYS full of (mostly) foreign and minority students and I was declined. It's a bald faced lie that Americans don't want the degrees and work. The truth is they are aggressively pushed out of the avialable sots to prefer others. Of course, California charges more for Non- Californian students...so they make more money ad meet all their diversity goals as a result. I have a friend whose family have been doctors for generations. He's been trying to get ONE final class for almost 7 years. The department head knows him by name and refuses him every semester. Now he is told his existing credits have "Expired". That means he hasn't been able to transfer them to other schools in his attempt to finish this part of the degree.

H1B's are nothing more than yet another liberal BS program to screw under Americans who are willing to work.
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Old 05-13-2019, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by RandolphB View Post
A major part of the reason you don't have more US students is that most of the places in STEM programs are already taken by foreign students. They come on student visas, take our places at schools and then get an H1B and get hired on the BS that "there aren't enough US people to hire". I got my FAA A & P certification and wanted to add a few core classes to turn it into a degree. Enrollment is done on-line- with some sort of pre-enrollment for minorities first. To be in the first round of enrollment, you have to have attended the school the previous semester. To do so I took courses on subjects I enjoyed to stay eligible. The degree was around 40 credits, and I gave up when I had almost 100 credits and still couldn't get the 3 classes I needed. When I tried to go to the first day's class and have the professor add me to the roster, it was ALWAYS full of (mostly) foreign and minority students and I was declined. It's a bald faced lie that Americans don't want the degrees and work. The truth is they are aggressively pushed out of the avialable sots to prefer others. Of course, California charges more for Non- Californian students...so they make more money ad meet all their diversity goals as a result. I have a friend whose family have been doctors for generations. He's been trying to get ONE final class for almost 7 years. The department head knows him by name and refuses him every semester. Now he is told his existing credits have "Expired". That means he hasn't been able to transfer them to other schools in his attempt to finish this part of the degree.

H1B's are nothing more than yet another liberal BS program to screw under Americans who are willing to work.
Are you an Engineer? or a STEM graduate? I'm talking about ABET accredited engineering programs. I've never heard of a minorities first enrollment in any of the courses I have taken.

Every state charges more for out of state students unless they have a reciprocity agreement with another state.
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Old 05-13-2019, 09:55 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by Viking0728 View Post
Are you an Engineer? or a STEM graduate? I'm talking about ABET accredited engineering programs. I've never heard of a minorities first enrollment in any of the courses I have taken.

Every state charges more for out of state students unless they have a reciprocity agreement with another state.

That's because you aren't in California. And neither am I anymore. The concept of "STEM" classes came along after me. I'm old. I was planning on taking my aviation career to the level of engineering. Now I don't even take part in aviation partly as a result.
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Old 05-13-2019, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by RandolphB View Post
That's because you aren't in California. And neither am I anymore. The concept of "STEM" classes came along after me. I'm old. I was planning on taking my aviation career to the level of engineering. Now I don't even take part in aviation partly as a result.
True, I never took any classes in California so I don't know what their policies are.
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Old 05-13-2019, 10:36 AM
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H1B Denials 'Skyrocketing'
Good. Screw indentured laborers undercutting wages for US citizens. And screw US companies, who think they're entitled to labor at whatever arbitrarily-low wages they wish to pay.
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Old 05-13-2019, 10:39 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by BadUmp View Post
the real problem, as I see it, is that a certain segment of people in this country for years now have allowed these H1B applicants to be able to perch themselves in the proverbial catbird seat since our education system has become so completely inferior to their system. Maybe it's about time to apply our resources to fixing that problem and not be dependent on these Visa applicants to perform "temporary" jobs that Americans can not perform . . .
ROFL education systems "superior" to ours? The USA has 7 of the top 10 universities in the world. India has precisely 0 of the top 1000 universities in the world.

Their educational system is so bad, that over 90% of their engineering graduates are UNEMPLOYABLE.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com...w/64446292.cms

They're desired because they're CHEAP, not because they're good.
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Old 05-13-2019, 10:42 AM
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Old 05-13-2019, 10:44 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by larrysb View Post
Actually, America greatly benefits from H1b visas. There really are NOT enough people with advanced degrees available to do all the productive work available in the USA.

I've been on the hiring side of H1b, many times. Bringing people into the US with advanced education and high-demand technical skills is a net win for the country.

Quite honestly, I've never ever paid an H1b visa holder a nickel less than citizen with the same qualifications. Not even once. I've been in high tech for a couple of decades. The companies who sponsor do benefit from one thing and this also erodes the labor market: The H1b worker is not able to easily change jobs in the US. So it improves retention, which is a very big deal in tech. A lot of the H1b workers I've hired had post-grad degrees from American universities.

There is a dark side and some abuses occur. One of the worst are outsourcing companies, who are usually also based offshore. They operate in the US and import as many H1b workers as they can get and they do tend to pay them and they push for less-skilled workers. These guys displace American workers, especially for lower skilled, lower-degreed jobs.

So I will proudly call myself a 100% pro-immigration conservative. When the immigrant benefits this country, I say let them in.
Then you're part of the problem, because it's common knowledge and easily-shown that H-1Bs are paid less. And, even if they weren't, the very fact that they artificially swell the labor supply means they'd be depressing US wages regardless.
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Old 05-13-2019, 10:47 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Z Factor View Post
A lot of that is accurate in certain sectors.

One profession that has me perplexed is doctors, as there are not enough medical schools for all the American applicants, and not enough residencies for those who do graduate. Yet the government is bringing in all sorts of foreign doctors, who is some cases have inferior education/training.
So it is not as if Americans wanting to be MD's is lacking, but if a school only takes 300 students out of the 5,000 that apply, why are not more medical schools popping up?
The same thing with residencies, with not enough positions to go around.

This group is trying to address the problem and asking for people to send emails and letters to their representatives;

https://news.aamc.org/for-the-media/...ctor-shortage/

We have some of the best and brightest minds in this country, yet are importing MD's, PA's and NP's from other countries instead of making sure our own citizens can get jobs in the healthcare fields. With Baby Boomers getting older and American MD's not able to keep up, we must find ways to get our kids into medical schools, and out practicing once they come out of school.
This is due to the AMA artificially reducing the number of medical school slots to restrict the number entering the profession and prevent wages from declining.
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Old 05-13-2019, 10:49 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by pdiddy972 View Post
This is due to the AMA artificially reducing the number of medical school slots to restrict the number entering the profession and prevent wages from declining.
So you're saying the AMA is more interested in protecting their members than they are what's best for the country?
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Old 05-13-2019, 10:51 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by vette6799 View Post
There are a few problems with upping the numbers of doctors educated in the US.

First, increasing the number of doctors takes quite some time, particularly if you are starting a new med school. It takes years to build the physical plant and put together the faculty necessary to teach students. Then, four years of med school and another three to nine years of residency before someone is finished with training. 15 years is often given as the time it takes from concept until docs are practicing and in some cases, such as with surgeons, 15 year may be generous.

There has been a push for existing med schools to increase the size of their classes as some graduate 100 or fewer students a year, and in some cases this has occurred.

Second, government funding for residencies has been cut back for quite some time. The AAMC, the entity in your link, has been reporting doctor shortages for years now but no increased funding is available. Even graduates of US medical schools are not guaranteed residencies in many specialties. On top of that, with an ongoing physician shortage, it takes time away from a practicing physician's day to work with residents when you are already working very long hours.

Most foreign doctors do train in the US, at least in part, to get licensed. Right now, without them, the problem would be much worse.

While the AMA is a sucky organization and was responsible at one point for pushing for fewer doctors, that was quite some time ago.
"Some time ago"? How about now?

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/t...enough-doctors

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Old 05-13-2019, 10:55 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by pdiddy972 View Post
ROFL education systems "superior" to ours? The USA has 7 of the top 10 universities in the world. India has precisely 0 of the top 1000 universities in the world.

Their educational system is so bad, that over 90% of their engineering graduates are UNEMPLOYABLE.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com...w/64446292.cms

They're desired because they're CHEAP, not because they're good.
I may have overstated IIT, I remembered a 60 Minutes story about their top students, but this seems article seems to contradict that.
https://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/...ering-schools/

I think what some of these countries have going for them is sheer numbers. I did a quick search and found these statistics

The World Economic Forum has conducted research which details which country produces the most engineering graduates. Unfortunately, the data they collected left China and India out of the equation due to a "lack of data". Due to the perplexing fact that they left the two countries out, InsiderMonkey.com conducted their own investigations to see which country has the most engineering graduates, factoring in the research done by the World Economic Forum

These were their findings:

The Top 5 countries producing the most engineering graduates per year:

5. Iran: 233,695 graduates. According to Forbes, 70% of the graduates are alleged to be women, which would suggest that they have the most women engineer graduates in the world.

4. The United States: 237,800. InsiderMonkey.com claims that only one in every 20 students majors in engineering in the US of A.

3. Russia: 454,400 graduates.

2: India: 1 million graduates. They might have one of the largest numbers of graduates, however, a report called the Aspiring Minds National Employability Report 2015 (click to download pdf) which surveyed 150,000 engineering students from more than 650 engineering colleges found that 80% of the graduates were unemployable.

1: China: 1.3 million graduates. The huge number of graduates was estimated by UNESCO in 2013. Engineering and Technology Magazinesays the statistic should be taken at face value because the number has been disputed.

UNESCO's Institute of Statistics then released another report in 2015 that also excluded India and China from their findings. The official answer that is given is that the countries do not supply their data and so cannot be factored into top 10 lists. The assumption that China and India are some of the most populated areas on earth suggests that they might produce more engineer graduates per capita than any other countries.


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Old 05-13-2019, 10:56 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by larrysb View Post
It's not really possible to "train" someone up to PhD in Semiconductor Physics, or MSEE with a speciality in analytical computation, or even a BSCS with specific training in data sciences and proficiency in Python programming. These are graduate degrees that take years to earn, and a lot of very hard work and lots of personal motivation to pursue.

The "salary" argument is pretty much a canard as well. That's the assumption, but never once have any of the big name tech companies I've worked for paid any of them a nickel less than they'd happily pay a citizen. The primary problem is simply hiring highly educated and skilled workforces. The less pretty part is this favors very large corporations, who can in turn do the legal work of sponsoring their visas in bulk with outfits like Fragomen Law. It also reduces turnover, since it is much harder for an H1b worker to get a job somewhere other than for who sponsored his visa.

I'm not talking about some IT guy who resets the passwords and gives you an email account. Though we are short on those as well.

The outsourcing companies who setup operations in the US, do pull these kinds of stunts and pay lower wages.
They routinely pay them less by hiring for a higher tier but pegging the salary as a lower tier.

Ever heard of Disney? They got busted for directly replacing an existing IT department of US employees with India H-1Bs, that they replaced because the Indians are cheaper, and forced the US employees to train the H-1Bs as a condition of severance. SCE (Edison) did the same thing.

Pretending H-1B isn't about cheap labor is ridiculous. Why would someone purposely pay a fee to bring a temporary worker who's a poor cultural fit, barely speaks English, and has poor education, skills and experience, if not for cheap labor and their indentured nature?

Here's a legal seminar showing US companies how to AVOID finding a US applicant so they can get an H-1B. Why would this happen if not for cheaper wages??


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Old 05-13-2019, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by RandolphB View Post
In the early days of the H1B drama, I saw H1Bers hired under a lower job title, at a lower pay rate...and tasked with higher pay rate jobs. In other words, hire somebody, call them a Tech when they were an Engineer and pay them Tech wages. They took it to get a foot in the door here and never left. Eventually they get job advancement, and now only hire countrymen below them. Yeah, H1B's are a GREAT idea.
Yep. Or they stay for their two 3-year terms as an H-1B and then the employer sends them back to India, shipping the job with them, so the inshoring becomes an offshoring.
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Old 05-13-2019, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by larrysb View Post
The way you stop this is free market.

The individual should be granted the visa, and it should be based on his qualifications. Is this *person* an asset to the USA?

Once the country lets him in, then he should be free to seek employment in the free market.

The system of sponsored visas has a lot of abuse potential because it is harder to move freely to other jobs. That's the only way someone can be paid less than market rate for the job.
If you had a set number of these, and, for those who qualified, immediately granted a green card so the immigrant could instantly shop employers for better pay or conditions, the demand for them would go to zero immediately.
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Old 05-13-2019, 11:01 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by pdiddy972 View Post
They routinely pay them less by hiring for a higher tier but pegging the salary as a lower tier.

Ever heard of Disney? They got busted for directly replacing an existing IT department of US employees with India H-1Bs, that they replaced because the Indians are cheaper, and forced the US employees to train the (
H-1Bs as a condition of severance. SCE (Edison) did the same thing.

Pretending H-1B isn't about cheap labor is ridiculous. Why would someone purposely pay a fee to bring a temporary worker who's a poor cultural fist, barely speaks English, and has poor education, skills and experience, if not for cheap labor and their indent nature?

Here's a legal seminar showing US companies how to AVOID finding a US applicant so they can get an H-1B. Why would this happen if not for cheaper wages??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU

To make a distinction. IT is not always staffed with degreed engineers and typically the lower tiers aren't. I have also seen where development teams farm out testing to Indian companies, I believe Darden restaurants does this. One place where you don't see H1Bs is in the defense industry due to clearances and ITAR regulations.
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Old 05-13-2019, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Viking0728 View Post
Is there really a shortage of medical schools? Or are you talking about lowering admission standards, adding schools, and then increasing the throughput?
There is a shortage of medical schools. If you read the post I responded to, there was a link to a group called AAMC and their projected shortages which are very credible.

I would assume that while all applicants are not necessarily good candidates, there are enough applicants that are not admitted to fill the void without significantly eroding quality. Furthermore, the more desirable residencies in the better programs are typically gotten by better med students from better medical schools based on achievement in the classroom and in standardized testing, so, to some extent, there is a check and balance system in place, underrepresented minority exceptions notwithstanding.
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