Politics, Religion & Controversy Politics | Religion | Controversy (Non-Corvette)

H1B Denials 'Skyrocketing'

 
Old 05-13-2019, 11:06 AM
  #41  
pdiddy972
CF Senior Member
 
pdiddy972's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jan 2014
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,695
Received 354 Likes on 235 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Viking0728 View Post
I may have overstated IIT, I remembered a 60 Minutes story about their top students, but this seems article seems to contradict that.
https://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/...ering-schools/

I think what some of these countries have going for them is sheer numbers. I did a quick search and found these statistics

The World Economic Forum has conducted research which details which country produces the most engineering graduates. Unfortunately, the data they collected left China and India out of the equation due to a "lack of data". Due to the perplexing fact that they left the two countries out, InsiderMonkey.com conducted their own investigations to see which country has the most engineering graduates, factoring in the research done by the World Economic Forum

These were their findings:

The Top 5 countries producing the most engineering graduates per year:

5. Iran: 233,695 graduates. According to Forbes, 70% of the graduates are alleged to be women, which would suggest that they have the most women engineer graduates in the world.

4. The United States: 237,800. InsiderMonkey.com claims that only one in every 20 students majors in engineering in the US of A.

3. Russia: 454,400 graduates.

2: India: 1 million graduates. They might have one of the largest numbers of graduates, however, a report called the Aspiring Minds National Employability Report 2015 (click to download pdf) which surveyed 150,000 engineering students from more than 650 engineering colleges found that 80% of the graduates were unemployable.

1: China: 1.3 million graduates. The huge number of graduates was estimated by UNESCO in 2013. Engineering and Technology Magazinesays the statistic should be taken at face value because the number has been disputed.

UNESCO's Institute of Statistics then released another report in 2015 that also excluded India and China from their findings. The official answer that is given is that the countries do not supply their data and so cannot be factored into top 10 lists. The assumption that China and India are some of the most populated areas on earth suggests that they might produce more engineer graduates per capita than any other countries.
That discusses the volume of graduates, which is not a measure of quality. In fact, the lack of standards and the fact that anyone who wants to can open a college in India and start granting degrees, is why their education is garbage.

top universities:

https://www.timeshighereducation.com...#survey-answer
pdiddy972 is online now  
Old 05-13-2019, 11:23 AM
  #42  
RandolphB
CF Senior Member
 
RandolphB's Avatar
 
Member Since: Dec 2010
Location: Oviedo
Posts: 12,996
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by pdiddy972 View Post
Yep. Or they stay for their two 3-year terms as an H-1B and then the employer sends them back to India, shipping the job with them, so the inshoring becomes an offshoring.

The last place I had the misfortune of working at was owned by an Indian national here on some sort of other visa. There was a constant stream of Indian "Interns" at the company. They sat in the manager's office and played with their iPhones the whole time they were there. On occasion, they would take pictures of them leaning on an airplane or some other non-sense to make it look like they were doing something. All of them supposedly were going back to India to work, but miracle of miracles..they just managed to find a US job before going back. As "Engineers", they got H1B's. They network only to other Indian nationals, and openly use it to start chain migration. NONE of the "Interns" had an ounce of common sense, all had rich mommy and daddies. The entire H1B system is corrupt and probably being floated by Indian money payoffs behind the scenes. They proudly brag about how many things they buy their way into.
RandolphB is online now  
Old 05-13-2019, 12:15 PM
  #43  
jasper711
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Jul 2004
Location: Pacific N.W. Warshington
Posts: 14,462
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes on 5 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by larrysb View Post
Actually, America greatly benefits from H1b visas. There really are NOT enough people with advanced degrees available to do all the productive work available in the USA.

I've been on the hiring side of H1b, many times. Bringing people into the US with advanced education and high-demand technical skills is a net win for the country.

Quite honestly, I've never ever paid an H1b visa holder a nickel less than citizen with the same qualifications. Not even once. I've been in high tech for a couple of decades. The companies who sponsor do benefit from one thing and this also erodes the labor market: The H1b worker is not able to easily change jobs in the US. So it improves retention, which is a very big deal in tech. A lot of the H1b workers I've hired had post-grad degrees from American universities.

There is a dark side and some abuses occur. One of the worst are outsourcing companies, who are usually also based offshore. They operate in the US and import as many H1b workers as they can get and they do tend to pay them and they push for less-skilled workers. These guys displace American workers, especially for lower skilled, lower-degreed jobs.

So I will proudly call myself a 100% pro-immigration conservative. When the immigrant benefits this country, I say let them in.
You might not be paying "less" but that is a matter of perspective as wages keep increasing. Also the quality of so-called equal degrees is debatable; there was a time when everyone coming from eastern Europe had a "masters degree" but by the time the dust settled those employees often were happiest as drafting technicians. Some of that pattern now repeats from the Pacific Rim. The post grad degrees often are a mechanism to learn English language. I know several transient workers in engineering jobs and the retention you talk about as a benefit, is a major personal problem for them: they would do better and the market they work in would prosper if they could shuffle positions to contract employees but that isn't possible so they grind on in a dormant role.

Our state board was proposing to credential foreign PE's without sitting for the examination. That was defeated (thankfully). On of the sponsors of this effort was an administrator of NSPE's, associated with another wanted for immigration fraud. After this was defeated I received some primitive emails saying we were nothing but frogs in a small pond etc. I checked where those were coming from some "aeronautical design services" based in India with access to over 5000 engineers, that was also affiliated with their own "college" to stamp out credentials.

It would be great to exchange experience with competent folks from developed countries overseas. Maybe some day that might happen. But not so far, in my 38 years of engineering experience.
jasper711 is offline  
Old 05-13-2019, 01:22 PM
  #44  
63 340HP
CF Senior Member
 
63 340HP's Avatar
 
Member Since: Nov 2005
Location: Beach & High Desert Southern California
Posts: 15,676
Received 483 Likes on 293 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by RandolphB View Post
A major part of the reason you don't have more US students is that most of the places in STEM programs are already taken by foreign students. They come on student visas, take our places at schools and then get an H1B and get hired on the BS that "there aren't enough US people to hire". I got my FAA A & P certification and wanted to add a few core classes to turn it into a degree. Enrollment is done on-line- with some sort of pre-enrollment for minorities first. To be in the first round of enrollment, you have to have attended the school the previous semester. To do so I took courses on subjects I enjoyed to stay eligible. The degree was around 40 credits, and I gave up when I had almost 100 credits and still couldn't get the 3 classes I needed. When I tried to go to the first day's class and have the professor add me to the roster, it was ALWAYS full of (mostly) foreign and minority students and I was declined. It's a bald faced lie that Americans don't want the degrees and work. The truth is they are aggressively pushed out of the avialable sots to prefer others. Of course, California charges more for Non- Californian students...so they make more money ad meet all their diversity goals as a result. I have a friend whose family have been doctors for generations. He's been trying to get ONE final class for almost 7 years. The department head knows him by name and refuses him every semester. Now he is told his existing credits have "Expired". That means he hasn't been able to transfer them to other schools in his attempt to finish this part of the degree.

H1B's are nothing more than yet another liberal BS program to screw under Americans who are willing to work.
Originally Posted by Viking0728 View Post
Are you an Engineer? or a STEM graduate? I'm talking about ABET accredited engineering programs. I've never heard of a minorities first enrollment in any of the courses I have taken.

Every state charges more for out of state students unless they have a reciprocity agreement with another state.
Originally Posted by RandolphB View Post
That's because you aren't in California. And neither am I anymore. The concept of "STEM" classes came along after me. I'm old. I was planning on taking my aviation career to the level of engineering. Now I don't even take part in aviation partly as a result.
Originally Posted by Viking0728 View Post
True, I never took any classes in California so I don't know what their policies are.
Lot's of misunderstanding in the first quote. To be clear, I am an Engineer and graduate of a California University, and I have taught classes there as an invited alumni and recruited graduates as recently as 2015.

There is no diversity (minority or immigrant) criteria for individual classes. Admissions, for new students and transfers, considers diversity by altering the standards for various ethnic/racial groups (Asians have the most difficult standards). Once a student is admitted to a given program or College within the University, Engineering, Business, Architecture, (etc.), there is no preference or priority for individual classes based on ethnicity.

In California State Universities, and most State University systems, a graduating senior who has completed a graduation checklist ("Grad Check") with the school is granted preferential priority enrollment for the remaining classes they need to graduate. It does not matter if the class needed to graduate is freshman level History or Political Science, or senior level Heat Transfer or Applied Quantum Physics, a graduating senior can bump a regular senior or junior, or anyone else, out of the class and take their place. The only time this graduating senior priority fails is when the student fails to complete the Grad Check. A student qualifies for Grad Check when the believe they need less that sixteen credits to graduate (four to six classes), but the student has to take the initiative to apply and undergo the Grad Check process to gain the priority.

Until the student completes Grad Check they have the priority of status based on credit units completed. Class enrollment priority:
1. Graduating seniors
2. Freshman & entering Transfers (freshman classes only)
3. Seniors (in Major)
4. Seniors (non Major)
5. Juniors
6. Sophomores

I have interviewed many second and third generation US born Citizens of Vietnamese immigrants, comprising about 30% of the graduating Engineers. There are more Asian heritage students in STEM because their culture encourages study and achievement in hard science, and there is a large population of Asians in California to fill seats (even with the higher Asian admission standards). I also see about 30% of the graduates being first generation US born Citizens of immigrants, from India and Asia born parents (again, from where the culture encourages hard sciences). This leaves 40% of the graduates from the typical US ethnic groups (brown, white, black, with Latino graduate counts rising over the past twenty years because of the large population in California). During casual recruiting and teaching, I advise the students to apply for Grad Check before their "last senior year" (an important fact of state Universities).

Engineering programs typically take five to six years to complete, with the delay due to impacted (full) classes in Junior level courses (not senior level courses). This occurs because graduating seniors, and then regular seniors based on credit units, get enrollment priority. Less than half of junior level classes are populated by third year students. Most of the junior level classes are populated by students in their first and second senior years. Combine the percentage of juniors who are lucky to enroll in junior level classes with the Engineering degree program parallel path prerequisite series of classes that must be taken in sequence, and you find most juniors out of sequence on one or more prerequisite paths. This junior level impacted course bottleneck pushes most Engineering students into a five or six year tenure, with two or three senior years based on total credit units. It's at this junior level bottleneck that many Engineering students give in to the pressure and jump to less demanding majors with larger classes with room to take students (IT, Business, Physics or Math).

By the time an Engineering student completes the prerequisites for true senior level courses the classes are half empty because of the washout rate. The result of the junior level bottleneck and washout is that it is rare to find an impacted senior level Engineering course. The result is that with about 1,200 entering freshmen and transfer Mechanical Engineering students every year, only about 100 graduate as Mechanical Engineers each year (the 2015 result), with only that 100 as the population to fill senior level courses.

If you could not enroll in a needed class as a graduating senior, you were not held back because of an impacted class (at least in California's State University systems).
63 340HP is offline  
Old 05-13-2019, 01:28 PM
  #45  
GrandSportC3
CF Senior Member
 
GrandSportC3's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jul 2001
Location: Secular Capitalist Lakeland, FL
Posts: 170,247
Received 18 Likes on 16 Posts
Cruise-In IV-V-VI-VII-VIII Veteran
St. Jude Donor '03, '06, '17
Default

Originally Posted by pdiddy972 View Post
I would assume that most H1B's are used for the computer field.. I came in 1997 on a H1B visa and eventually got my green cards and citizenship.. I have contributed a lot more in taxes that I paid than services that I have used..
GrandSportC3 is online now  
Old 05-13-2019, 01:47 PM
  #46  
pdiddy972
CF Senior Member
 
pdiddy972's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jan 2014
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,695
Received 354 Likes on 235 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3 View Post
I would assume that most H1B's are used for the computer field.. I came in 1997 on a H1B visa and eventually got my green cards and citizenship.. I have contributed a lot more in taxes that I paid than services that I have used..
Good for you. But not really relevant to the point that we already have as many or more US grads than job openings in those same areas. Thus we don't need to import more workers.
pdiddy972 is online now  
Old 05-13-2019, 01:54 PM
  #47  
RandolphB
CF Senior Member
 
RandolphB's Avatar
 
Member Since: Dec 2010
Location: Oviedo
Posts: 12,996
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by 63 340HP View Post
Lot's of misunderstanding in the first quote. To be clear, I am an Engineer and graduate of a California University, and I have taught classes there as an invited alumni and recruited graduates as recently as 2015.

There is no diversity (minority or immigrant) criteria for individual classes. Admissions, for new students and transfers, considers diversity by altering the standards for various ethnic/racial groups (Asians have the most difficult standards). Once a student is admitted to a given program or College within the University, Engineering, Business, Architecture, (etc.), there is no preference or priority for individual classes based on ethnicity.

In California State Universities, and most State University systems, a graduating senior who has completed a graduation checklist ("Grad Check") with the school is granted preferential priority enrollment for the remaining classes they need to graduate. It does not matter if the class needed to graduate is freshman level History or Political Science, or senior level Heat Transfer or Applied Quantum Physics, a graduating senior can bump a regular senior or junior, or anyone else, out of the class and take their place. The only time this graduating senior priority fails is when the student fails to complete the Grad Check. A student qualifies for Grad Check when the believe they need less that sixteen credits to graduate (four to six classes), but the student has to take the initiative to apply and undergo the Grad Check process to gain the priority.

Until the student completes Grad Check they have the priority of status based on credit units completed. Class enrollment priority:
1. Graduating seniors
2. Freshman & entering Transfers (freshman classes only)
3. Seniors (in Major)
4. Seniors (non Major)
5. Juniors
6. Sophomores

I have interviewed many second and third generation US born Citizens of Vietnamese immigrants, comprising about 30% of the graduating Engineers. There are more Asian heritage students in STEM because their culture encourages study and achievement in hard science, and there is a large population of Asians in California to fill seats (even with the higher Asian admission standards). I also see about 30% of the graduates being first generation US born Citizens of immigrants, from India and Asia born parents (again, from where the culture encourages hard sciences). This leaves 40% of the graduates from the typical US ethnic groups (brown, white, black, with Latino graduate counts rising over the past twenty years because of the large population in California). During casual recruiting and teaching, I advise the students to apply for Grad Check before their "last senior year" (an important fact of state Universities).

Engineering programs typically take five to six years to complete, with the delay due to impacted (full) classes in Junior level courses (not senior level courses). This occurs because graduating seniors, and then regular seniors based on credit units, get enrollment priority. Less than half of junior level classes are populated by third year students. Most of the junior level classes are populated by students in their first and second senior years. Combine the percentage of juniors who are lucky to enroll in junior level classes with the Engineering degree program parallel path prerequisite series of classes that must be taken in sequence, and you find most juniors out of sequence on one or more prerequisite paths. This junior level impacted course bottleneck pushes most Engineering students into a five or six year tenure, with two or three senior years based on total credit units. It's at this junior level bottleneck that many Engineering students give in to the pressure and jump to less demanding majors with larger classes with room to take students (IT, Business, Physics or Math).

By the time an Engineering student completes the prerequisites for true senior level courses the classes are half empty because of the washout rate. The result of the junior level bottleneck and washout is that it is rare to find an impacted senior level Engineering course. The result is that with about 1,200 entering freshmen and transfer Mechanical Engineering students every year, only about 100 graduate as Mechanical Engineers each year (the 2015 result), with only that 100 as the population to fill senior level courses.

If you could not enroll in a needed class as a graduating senior, you were not held back because of an impacted class (at least in California's State University systems).

That's what you, as a teacher in the system says. In the real world as a white student, I faced nothing but minority counselers who gave me six dozen excuses to Sunday as to why I could never get the few classes I needed. First it was that I needed to enroll in person at the campus. Then I showed up to enroll and was told priority enrollment had already happened on-line and classes were full (not just once...). None of them ever offered me the path of showing up the first day of class and asking to be added to a class, I discovered that myself. It was disgusting to see the minority student who had the appointment after mine enrolled in a class when I tried to go add to it. The black and Mexican staff were bad, but the Indian ones tried to tell me that NONE of my credits were valid any longer, and that if I wanted to apply towards a degree, I would have to start over fresh. When I tried to have credits transferred to a private aviation college, they were told that I had zero credits transferable on the books. There were minority students in the A & P program who started it with zero credits before the core aviation classes that got all the classes they needed and got a degree upon completing the FAA testing.

You can talk all you want, but I saw it not work. Policies are great, until staff manipulates and won't follow them.
RandolphB is online now  
Old 05-13-2019, 02:14 PM
  #48  
63 340HP
CF Senior Member
 
63 340HP's Avatar
 
Member Since: Nov 2005
Location: Beach & High Desert Southern California
Posts: 15,676
Received 483 Likes on 293 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by RandolphB View Post
That's what you, as a teacher in the system says. In the real world as a white student, I faced nothing but minority counselers who gave me six dozen excuses to Sunday as to why I could never get the few classes I needed. First it was that I needed to enroll in person at the campus. Then I showed up to enroll and was told priority enrollment had already happened on-line and classes were full (not just once...). None of them ever offered me the path of showing up the first day of class and asking to be added to a class, I discovered that myself. It was disgusting to see the minority student who had the appointment after mine enrolled in a class when I tried to go add to it. The black and Mexican staff were bad, but the Indian ones tried to tell me that NONE of my credits were valid any longer, and that if I wanted to apply towards a degree, I would have to start over fresh. When I tried to have credits transferred to a private aviation college, they were told that I had zero credits transferable on the books. There were minority students in the A & P program who started it with zero credits before the core aviation classes that got all the classes they needed and got a degree upon completing the FAA testing.

You can talk all you want, but I saw it not work. Policies are great, until staff manipulates and won't follow them.
Was this experience at a Community College, or a State University?
63 340HP is offline  
Old 05-13-2019, 08:38 PM
  #49  
larrysb
CF Senior Member
 
larrysb's Avatar
 
Member Since: Aug 2002
Location: $ilicon Vall€y CA
Posts: 8,562
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

Originally Posted by jasper711 View Post
You might not be paying "less" but that is a matter of perspective as wages keep increasing. Also the quality of so-called equal degrees is debatable; there was a time when everyone coming from eastern Europe had a "masters degree" but by the time the dust settled those employees often were happiest as drafting technicians. Some of that pattern now repeats from the Pacific Rim. The post grad degrees often are a mechanism to learn English language. I know several transient workers in engineering jobs and the retention you talk about as a benefit, is a major personal problem for them: they would do better and the market they work in would prosper if they could shuffle positions to contract employees but that isn't possible so they grind on in a dormant role.

Our state board was proposing to credential foreign PE's without sitting for the examination. That was defeated (thankfully). On of the sponsors of this effort was an administrator of NSPE's, associated with another wanted for immigration fraud. After this was defeated I received some primitive emails saying we were nothing but frogs in a small pond etc. I checked where those were coming from some "aeronautical design services" based in India with access to over 5000 engineers, that was also affiliated with their own "college" to stamp out credentials.

It would be great to exchange experience with competent folks from developed countries overseas. Maybe some day that might happen. But not so far, in my 38 years of engineering experience.

No, we're all well informed about the non-equivalent degrees offered in other countries. Our HR department (Fortune 100 company) had complete research available on literally every nation in the world that awarded engineering, computer science, science and business degrees. They were also pretty good at weeding out the fake schools and the fake degrees too.

Lots of the H1b visa people I hired held degrees or graduate degrees from accredited universities in the United States, Canada, the UK and other western European nations.

Never once were any of them offered less than the standard, approved-by-HR salary offers. I know, I signed the offers. We also paid for the H1b expenses out of company funds, not out of their salaries. Those were expensed to my department and I signed those too.

Like I said, the unspoken, but significant attraction to large corporate employers was reducing turnover. It is hard to move to another job unless that company is willing and able to sponsor the H1b visa. That's effectively cuts out poaching by smaller companies who lack the resources to get and sponsor h1b slots. You could argue that it limited salary, by virtue of limiting job mobility. But it wasn't reflected in the standard salary review process. In most big companies, that's ruled by HR and finance and line managers have little flexibility. They want to see 85% "satisfactory" ratings, 10% "improvement required" and 5% "exceeds expectations" in the normal review cycle. Didn't matter whether you were citizen, green card, or h1b. That's how the peanut butter jar was to be distributed and everyone got the same increase formula based on their category bucket.

The one exception were out of cycle employee promotions, which tended to happen if a critical employee with a necessary skill, or member of a protected class was threatening to leave. Or once in a while, a real superstar was kicking butt. Usually, corporate BS tamps that kind of thing out before too long.
larrysb is offline  
Old 05-14-2019, 07:10 AM
  #50  
VITE1
CF Senior Member
Support Corvetteforum!
 
VITE1's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jul 2004
Location: Port St Lucie FL Life is hard, Then you die, FL USA
Posts: 65,656
Received 44 Likes on 22 Posts
Cruise-In X Veteran
St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10
Default

Originally Posted by 68/70Vette View Post
Why does this matter when perhaps a million illegals will be waltzing into the country this year? It's so difficult to come here legally and so easy to come here illegally. At least the H1B applicants are educated, can presumably speak English, and .......importantly..... want to work.
It matters because we have 50,000,000 people collecting means tested welfare while we 7,500,000 open jobs which cannot be filled due to lack of skills.

We need to get all the able bodied into the economy before we keep bringing in people to do the jobs we fail to tran Americans for .
VITE1 is offline  
Old 05-14-2019, 07:54 AM
  #51  
leadfoot4
CF Senior Member
 
leadfoot4's Avatar
 
Member Since: May 2001
Location: Western NY
Posts: 58,769
Received 427 Likes on 394 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by VITE1 View Post
It matters because we have 50,000,000 people collecting means tested welfare while we have 7,500,000 open jobs which cannot be filled due to lack of skills.

We need to get all the able bodied into the economy, before we keep bringing in people to do the jobs we fail to train Americans for.
leadfoot4 is offline  
Old 05-14-2019, 08:50 AM
  #52  
pdiddy972
CF Senior Member
 
pdiddy972's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jan 2014
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,695
Received 354 Likes on 235 Posts
Default

Yep. We already have on the order of 15 million STEM grads and only 5 million STEM-related jobs. We have no justification for importing more.
pdiddy972 is online now  
Old 05-14-2019, 09:11 AM
  #53  
GrandSportC3
CF Senior Member
 
GrandSportC3's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jul 2001
Location: Secular Capitalist Lakeland, FL
Posts: 170,247
Received 18 Likes on 16 Posts
Cruise-In IV-V-VI-VII-VIII Veteran
St. Jude Donor '03, '06, '17
Default

Originally Posted by pdiddy972 View Post
Good for you. But not really relevant to the point that we already have as many or more US grads than job openings in those same areas. Thus we don't need to import more workers.
Again, we have too many grads in certain fields but not enough in others like Computer related degrees or the medical field. A IT H1B worker is not going to take away a job for someone who graduated in engineering..
GrandSportC3 is online now  
Old 05-14-2019, 09:34 AM
  #54  
pdiddy972
CF Senior Member
 
pdiddy972's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jan 2014
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,695
Received 354 Likes on 235 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by GrandSportC3 View Post
Again, we have too many grads in certain fields but not enough in others like Computer related degrees or the medical field. A IT H1B worker is not going to take away a job for someone who graduated in engineering..
I already posted the chart showing that we're graduating too many people in pretty much ALL STEM fields. And, as I noted earlier, whether you believe (without evidence) that US grads aren't being replaced, their wages are less because of this practice.
pdiddy972 is online now  
Old 05-14-2019, 12:44 PM
  #55  
63 340HP
CF Senior Member
 
63 340HP's Avatar
 
Member Since: Nov 2005
Location: Beach & High Desert Southern California
Posts: 15,676
Received 483 Likes on 293 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by pdiddy972 View Post
I already posted the chart showing that we're graduating too many people in pretty much ALL STEM fields. And, as I noted earlier, whether you believe (without evidence) that US grads aren't being replaced, their wages are less because of this practice.
Not all those graduates in your chart stay to work in the USA. This is a big reason why the US cannot fill the job openings, because not every graduate stays in the USA to work.

In hard undergraduate Engineering and Medical degrees, about 35% of the US graduates seek work outside the USA. A US degree is prized and rated/rewarded much higher than a BS from other nation's school systems. The bulk of the entry level jobs for US graduate Petroleum and Electrical Engineers are outside the US (more money, more hands on experience, and more opportunity to advance than in the US). Postgraduate Medical school, internship and residency costs are less outside the US (due to lower wages and lower cost structures), and the need for Doctors is just as dire as in the USA. A Med student that spends four years of post graduate outside the US, and returns to finish internship and residency in a US Hospital can save $100,000 and be prepared for Board exams the same as a student who stayed in the USA.

The USA's CS & IT fields that have the most jobs to fill hire so many foreign trained "Engineers" that the starting wages have eroded (supply and demand). The larger company's have enough cash flow that they can pay less initially, and afford the turnover to cultivate and farm their in house talent (and H-1B Visa holders are captive within the process, and become useful inexpensive tools to contrast the real good and real bad performers). Sharp US graduates in these fields with people skills have better initial opportunities in smaller companies and in parallel fields where specialized skills draw greater pay, leaving the big companies to weed through the average performers.

You also do not recognize that not all STEM graduates choose work in the respective STEM fields. Many Engineers and Premed graduates go into Law and Business graduate programs.

The talent shortage is not just numbers that an isolated Account can read and identify reality (statistics must have context).
63 340HP is offline  
Old 05-14-2019, 03:02 PM
  #56  
pdiddy972
CF Senior Member
 
pdiddy972's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jan 2014
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,695
Received 354 Likes on 235 Posts
Default

Overall point anyone arguing for H-1Bs needs to understand is that a normal US labor market, if left to its own devicesm will meet the demand for ANY skill. Employers aren't willing to pay the going rate or allow wages to do what they must to attract people to skill up in areas they want, so they look to undercut US jobs and wages instead for their own benefit at all of our expense.
pdiddy972 is online now  
Old 05-14-2019, 03:14 PM
  #57  
IMBoring25
CF Senior Member
 
IMBoring25's Avatar
 
Member Since: Oct 2007
Location: OK
Posts: 2,469
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

A lecture from pdiddy on the virtues of laissez-faire capitalism. Where's Rod Serling?
IMBoring25 is offline  
Old 05-15-2019, 10:55 AM
  #58  
pdiddy972
CF Senior Member
 
pdiddy972's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jan 2014
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 10,695
Received 354 Likes on 235 Posts
Default

Here's a thought experiment to underscore that H-1B isn't about any shortage.

If an employer advertises an IT job at $50K a year and complains about unqualified/no applicants (and uses that as a justification for an H-1B), but then posts the same job at $100K and gets flooded with resumes, was there ever an actual shortage of talent? Nope.
pdiddy972 is online now  
Old 05-15-2019, 11:12 AM
  #59  
IMBoring25
CF Senior Member
 
IMBoring25's Avatar
 
Member Since: Oct 2007
Location: OK
Posts: 2,469
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Part of the H1B process is a prevailing wage determination that's intended to verify that the wage being offered is proportionate with the qualifications being demanded. If employers are managing to deflate the value of positions by 50%, that doesn't speak well for the government's ability to administer simple programs.
IMBoring25 is offline  
Old 05-15-2019, 01:41 PM
  #60  
Z Factor
CF Senior Member
 
Z Factor's Avatar
 
Member Since: Nov 2002
Location: S. Florida
Posts: 10,686
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by vette6799 View Post
There are a few problems with upping the numbers of doctors educated in the US.

First, increasing the number of doctors takes quite some time, particularly if you are starting a new med school. It takes years to build the physical plant and put together the faculty necessary to teach students. Then, four years of med school and another three to nine years of residency before someone is finished with training. 15 years is often given as the time it takes from concept until docs are practicing and in some cases, such as with surgeons, 15 year may be generous.

There has been a push for existing med schools to increase the size of their classes as some graduate 100 or fewer students a year, and in some cases this has occurred.

Second, government funding for residencies has been cut back for quite some time. The AAMC, the entity in your link, has been reporting doctor shortages for years now but no increased funding is available. Even graduates of US medical schools are not guaranteed residencies in many specialties. On top of that, with an ongoing physician shortage, it takes time away from a practicing physician's day to work with residents when you are already working very long hours.

Most foreign doctors do train in the US, at least in part, to get licensed. Right now, without them, the problem would be much worse.

While the AMA is a sucky organization and was responsible at one point for pushing for fewer doctors, that was quite some time ago.
While some of that might be a contributing factor, what is the solution then, just import more foreign trained MD's?
We seem to not have any problem pumping out tons of lawyers, and that is a problem in and of itself. So they should close some of the law schools in favor or more medical schools, thus increasing the number of American MD''s and lowering the number of lawyers.
A win-win!
Z Factor is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Quick Reply: H1B Denials 'Skyrocketing'


Sponsored Ads
Vendor Directory

Contact Us - About Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
 
  • Ask a Question
    Get answers from community experts
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: