comparing a ZR1 to a LT1? The tech is smoking crack.

Hey guys,

(Aside from this particular shops outragious estimate not being anywhere reasonable, seems to me that ALL repair shops have suddenly become bad???)

Lighten UP on shops trying to stay in business, hey? They have TONS of operating expenses and need to charge for their time! If they spend X hours on repairing something they're probably looking at FIVE (or more) times their mechanics wages to simply cover their overhead (IF they're booking 8 hr. days per mechanic)!

Just this morning I took my vette into a shop to have the ground connections on the block re-done. (I suspect grounding issues) OF COURSE I could have done it myself in an hour and at no cost....but I'd have needed to jack up and crawl under the beast. I chose to work at my profession instead, earning much more than the shop charged me. Sure, I was at first choked at the bill.....but then I realized THEY need to stay in business, so I gladly paid the bill without complaint or comment.

Anything less and they wouldn't be around much longer. THEN competitors would raise their rates even higher because of less market competition.

Point is that I had a choice.

"working outside in the heat..." in Maryland?

hey folks.. another thing about this that sorta concerns me is no mention is made of replacing the part that actually TOUCHES the seal and is by now grooved .. that being the harmonic balancer...
i just replaced my HB 3 weeks ago and changed out the seal too..

have whoever does the seal replacement put a new balancer in at the same time.. its yoke is what actually goes INTO the timing seal and spins inside of it.

the cost of a balancer is minimal .. if you DO NOT replace it then ill bet a dollar it leaks once its all back together.

remember the old balancer has been spinning inside that seal for YEARS and is grooved to fit into that seal by now.. a new seal will likely fall into that groove and there will be a gap allowing oil to leak out..

just my 2cents.

Bret

Very Well Put People that arent in business dont really understand. Ya gotta charge what it takes. That doesnt mean take advantage of people, which is unfortunately what ends up happening in every type of business, not just auto repair.

I agree, BUT, if you have done the job enough times you know where the issues exist.
An experienced wrench can then give an outside guesstamat (at most that can be wrong) based on experience w/that type of problem. While no one has xray vision, explaining all the possibilities associated w/that type of leak would not be that difficult.
Computer tuning a modified car is different, and can't be done well on a time frame like putting a part on, so I understand from your perspective regarding time.

I agree..I just did my 84's Last Week
My 96' has 37K Mi. on it I have a few drops on the floor Looks like the W.P. Drive shaft seal. Gonna install a Miziere Electric Pump and block of the Drive so No Oil or Water leaks on my Opti.

AGREED. Thats where you have to separate repair from mod. The OPs experience with shop in question is ridiculous. A header installation (post #19 I think it was) is not the same as an exhaust manifold replacement, even though thats essentially what you're doing.
Sorry for running this thread so far off topic.
To the OP, take your car somewhere else. Somewhere that sounds reasonable.

oh, yea... 90* with matching humidity... it really sucks.

Ill do you a deal, if he wants to rort you 16 hrs, ill go one better and do the whole job for free, you supply the required parts and the tools. You shout me the return ticket and im there :thumbs:

Man, these crazy Aussies will do anything to get off their rock, won't they?:rofl:

:cheers:

HAHAHA!! :lol: Mate its always worth a shot to get over there and visit some mates, id be coming straight back here when its all said and done!!! :thumbs:

I cannot say what the law is in VA, but in CA, if you advertise that you do work on automobiles, or your advertisements might "..reasonably lead a member of the public to believe that such establishment performs the repair of motor vehicle.", you are considered to be an "Automotive Repair Dealer". Cal. Admin. Code tit. 16, s 3371.1 You must supply a quote IN WRITING for all work to be done to the vehicle. That includes PERFORMANCE PARTS INSTALLATION on any DMV automobile licensed for operation on State or county roads.

In looking up the actual CA laws, I found that my earlier post was slightly in error. CA law states that if the final total will exceed the original quote by ANY amount, the repair shop MUST get the owner's permission to exceed that cost, before doing any work for which they intend to charge the customer above the original quote. If done over the phone, the repair technician MUST make a special note that it was authorized and get the vehicle owner to initial that note when they retrieve the vehicle. There isn't even a 10% cushion in CA. I sell scan tools part time, and I am on a first name basis with some of the guys at the California Bureau of Automotive Repair. They like honest, competent shops.

While circumstances do sometimes cause the actual costs to exceed the original estimate, it is AGAINST THE LAW in CA to charge for it without authorization IN ADVANCE. The laws have gotten so strict because unscrupulus shops give you a low-ball price and then when the car is apart, want to double the costs. You can't do that in CA with a knowlegable consumer and get away with it.

All of the competent shops I've ever dealt with, did not exceed the original estimate by more than 10% without some siginifcant reason. They usually know from experience what the potential is for problems and warn you in advance. It is my opinion that if the shop is not experienced enough to accurately estimate the cost of the repair or upgrade BEFORE they start the work, then their experience level is not sufficient to work on my vehicle. I'm not paying them to go to school while charging me.

I know that not every shop is filled with crooks. I worked my way through college as a small engine repair mechanic and at an auto repair shop. There are a LOT of good shops and mechanics out there. There are also a lot of shops who are basically honest, but aren't that competent. They are only too willing to learn a process on the customers time and dime. If the shop has never done a job before, they should notify you of that fact and the potential additional costs in advance. Just because you gotta pay bills doesn't give you the right to charge to do a job you aren't experienced at or competent to do right without delays.

The Corvette only shop that I rely on here in Sacramento, replaced my clutch 18 months ago. The new OEM clutch made a wierd squeak in neutral and didn't disengage quite right. They pulled it out and reinstalled it, double checking every step of the process. It still squeaked. They pulled it out again, measured everything, and found that the brand new clutch was just out of spec. They called the manufacturer about the problem and were told to use a shim kit. They told those guys, "That isn't how we do business", and to supply another new clutch. The second new clutch was measured and installed. No squeak, worked perfectly. Still working perfect 18 months later. I paid ONLY for the original clutch repair. The shop Corvette Care of Rancho Cordova, warranties their work and parts and it wasn't my fault the first new clutch wasn't in spec. They did not give me some crap about their bills and cost of doing business. They made things right and apologized for the delay. You know why they didn't have to cry about their time lost and bills like some do? Because they are always booked two weeks in advance. Maybe it has something to do with being honest and competent.

I rescued my car...
 

now I've gotta find someone to do the repair. I understand what most of the posts on this are saying, but looking at the location where the guy said the leak was occurring, the way to get to it is pull the engine! He put it on a lift, and showed me where he stuck a mirror into a small opening to see the leak. He called it the timing cover. I don't know if that is correct. I also call the local Chevy dealer, who said I would have to bring the car in and let them look at it, because "we hardly ever work on cars that old." Oh well.

Thanks, ya'll.

You do NOT have to remove the engine, in fact doing so would probably be more work. You dont even have to put it on a lift. On an LT1, the hardest park is taking the water pump off and thats not too hard, a matter of 4 bolts. I know its a pain, but you'll save a LOT of money by doing it yourself.

I understand how the laws are written and why. But, there is a reason there's a disclaimer ON THE BOTTOM OF THE REPAIR INVOICE THAT YOU SIGN. They all have them, basically stating that the estimate is preliminary and there is always a possibility of additional parts and labor,blah, blah, blah. Now, without starting a big debate (we are, after all, hijacking this guys thread) I'll just make this final point. You cannot expect a repair shop to be able to foresee any and all possible obstacles on every repair job.
For instance, tranny R&R on an exploder (Ford Explorer). Quote X amount of time, therefore X amount of money, over the phone no less. Truck comes in and EVERY exhaust bolt, including the studs to the manifold are rusted beyond removal, even with heat. Tell me how you're not gonna pay additional money even if the total (labor) is 50% over the estimate. Now, granted, the customer needs to be advised and approve of the increase, but at that point alot of people would think they are being taken advantage of. When in reality the shop needs to spend several hours more to remove the bolts that are rusted because the customer has been four wheelin in nags head for years.
Point is, there are extenuating circumstances on alot, if not most jobs. If we worst case scenario everything, and price everything based on that, how many customers do you think will be scared away?
I'm done hijacking. sorry..........

I have heard of a need to mark the balancer on a LT-1. Something about no keyway. Look at Alldata if avalible to you or a good shop manual to be safe. That mechanic probably didn't know anything about that and screwed up. Now he just does not want to work on it. What a jerk! That is what gives "mechanics" a bad rep.

NOT IN CA. Maybe, an initial estimate in other states, but in The Peoples Republik of CA, once the work starts, the shop MUST abide by the written estimate. They CANNOT charge more then the estimate unless authorized by the customer in WRITING or over the phone and later initialed in writing. To do otherwise, opens the shop to prosecution by the CA BAR and the vehicle owner legally getting work done without paying.

Having worked in the business myself, I agree with you here. However, the LAW in CA states that if the shop cannot complete the work without additional labor and parts, the original estimate must cover the ability of the shop to restore the vehicle to the condition it was in prior to the beginning of the repair process. That includes expendibles like gaskets that get torn in the process of removal.

I agree with your example 100%. As you point out, "...the customer needs to be advised and approve of the increase". Experienced shops know that this potential problem exists and tell people on the phone the possible range of costs of a repair. A written repair is expected to have included a detailed analysis of the vehicle, and in CA cannot be changed without written authorization.

It was my experience in the 2 shops where I worked while in college (Indiana rust-belt), that when the rust buckets came in and we explained the additional costs involved due to the condition of the vehicle, the owners often did go somewhere else. In those cases we were happy to see them go. When they stayed, we usually had so much trouble with the rust-buckets, that we ended up breaking expensive tools, taking way too much time on them, or using far too much shop material (rags, PB Blaster, torches), we couldn't really make a legitimate profit. Most experienced places can do about any job in 75 ~ 80 percent of the standard book time. By being efficient, a skilled mechanic can potentailly charge for 10~12 hours of book-rate time in an 8 hour day. This is a legitimate financial incentive for the mechanic to be well trained/experienced and have the appropriate quality tools readily available. Because of that financial incentive, I knew one mechanic who refused to work on cars where his initial estimate was more than 25% above book rate due to poor vehicle condition. I learned from him that in most cases, the jobs turn out to be a royal PIA. All too often the owners of exceptionally poorly maintained vehicles often feel they are being overcharged to begin with and those customers cannot be satisfied no matter what you charge. For us it was better to send them to another shop that didn't value it's reputation. Not all customers are good customers either.

In my example with Corvette Care of Rancho Cordova, CA, they put a new clutch in my Vette 3 times. They spent a lot of additional time figuring out the cause of the problem with the new OEM parts. Since they sold me the parts and they installed the parts, they backed up the repair 100% until the car was fixed correctly. Had the problem been due to my vehicle or my parts it might have been different, but in this case it was due to the OEM parts supplied to them by their jobber, so they didn't even think about charging me for additional labor. They lost money on the deal labor wise, and yet they apologized for taking the extra time to get things sorted out. They marked it up to "training". It is now shop policy to measure every new clutch in certain areas when it is pulled from the box, prior to install, so the problem doesn't bite them again. They don't worry about losing the occasional problem vehicle or the lost time on that one job, because they value their reputation. It's a two week wait minimum to get your car into their shop. Guess why.

With respect to the original post, in my opinion the mechanic was trying to "Corvette Tax" him in an unusual way. Rather than say up front that he wanted to increase the LT1 book rate by 400%, he explains that he is using the ZR1 Corvette rate as if the ZR1 and LT1 were similar Vette engines. If he had said he was gonna charge him the Cadillac or Lexus rate the rip-off would have been apparent, but a Corvette is a Corvette right.

??? the hourly cost includes perportional overhead, they're not supposed to make it on one customer. We generally figure to earn about 3 X's the mechanics/employee's rate, 4 top. Their overhead should be about the same as all of the other shops, if it's extrodinary, that's their problem, not the customers. I wish I made much more than the average $75/hr shop charge.

I like the way you think. If those customers weren't such neglectful cheapasses maybe their car would be in better condition in the first place and not need a repair shop.