Why go high tech when old school is just as fast?
 

Like it says,why go high tech computer engine when old school is still just as fast.You spend alot more money changeing to high tech ,computer controlled fuel injection ,engine.Is it just to be different?Not trying to start nothing,just a thought.

Yes for all out HP both FI and a carbed engine will be right about the same. Look at driveability though. The FI engine has it all over the carbed engine here. Idle and mid range is much improved with FI. Throttle response is much better. The carb is outdated and it just averages out the mixture. FI is much more precise. Better fuel economy and better driveability. FI wins hands down. That being said I still run a carb! No choke either but it makes good HP

Better drivability, no vapor lock, no g-force fuel starvation, no altitude mixture problems, no weather related problems. Better gas mileage, much more accurate tuning capability, real time mixture monitoring, data logging.

And because it's :cool:

:D

Because it's more fuel efficient. It's also more money in the pockets of the service depts. who get to fix all that stuff when it breaks.

Why go high tech?

Look at the mpg and then look at performance. Computer controlled cars can do it much better than a carburated car.

efi engines have turned enthusiast motorists into mere motorist consumers...how many of those who have a sport new gen efi cars know where to put the hands when something wrong happens?
nobody (or very few of them), they have to 'buy' all the services but not fully enjoy the passion.

ok, now you can flame me:leaving:

I agree with what you said,BUT not really worth the extra coin you have to spend,and you can make a carb very responsive .The new carbs of today run really good,alot better then 20 years ago.For our cars it just doesnt seem reasonable ,unless its to be different.

Gas mileage ,i dont think many of us care about that.Vapor lock,can be fixed,mixtures can be fixed,I agree with better tuning.

:iagree:

Then how about engine longevity. Carbs dump raw gas even when you do not need it, washing the oil off cylinder walls and diluting the crankcase oil.:thumbs:

a carb that is correctly set up for the motor it is on will perform as good as FI, personaly I would say FI willl take less time to tune.

I can testify that fi is not easier then carbs.

Longevity,Yes ,maybe a little more mileage out of a fi,But still not worth the cost.You can still get alot of mileage out of a carbed engine.

Also i can add a blower on the engine and still be alot cheaper then fi.So far there isnt any good reason to go high tech.remember ,this is just a debate,not flaming nobody.

Each to his own. If I had wanted a computerized EFI car I would have kept my 93. It was an excellent car & I really enjoyed the 6-speed, but the damn computer that controlled the climate system kept barfing. I bought my 79 specifically because of no computers. The only cpu in my car is in the Alpine.

BTW - I'm not a technophobe, I've been in electronics for over 24 years.

Personally, I think it all just boils down to bragging rights. :rofl:

This has been fun. Maybe next time, we can discuss the best color for a C3 Corvette. :lol: :lol:

:bs I almost missed this thread and all the fun:rofl:

Bullshark

Better cold start, better throttle response, better mph, better cruising range; ya efi sucks. :)

Or the pros and cons of luggage racks and/or what mufflers to use for side mounts,,,,,:willy: :willy: :willy: Oh yeah,, EFI until it goes bad and wont start, carb. is easier to diagnose. Peace,,,Moosie :seeya

Sorry moosie, that is a common misconception that I do not agree with. I will take a PC, hook up to my engine, and track down a problem in a fraction of the time it takes screwing with a carb. I have done that too many times over the years, and the only car I will put up with the BS on is the LT-1. Keeping it original is the only reason.

Bullshark

Why run radial tires? F70-15 bias plies are round, just like radials. And you put air in them, just like radials. So therefore bias plies are just as good and we should all run them because old stuff is always better.

I put a EFI 502 in my 67 to be different and to enjoy the challenge of the swap. I've made alot of friends in doing the research and asking questions of people that have done this to their cars. Corvettes and diversity is what makes this hobby great. :thumbs:
Russ

When I had my Mit 3000GT, I would pop the hood, look around, and close it. Nothing to mess with under there. That's no fun! Half the fun of owning C3's is making them run right.

Head over to ls1tech.com.... there's just as much to mess with, just different. And you don't have to gush fuel all over your hands after removing the carb bowls to change the mixture.

Can you explain this in some detail? There are many on the forum that swear by the 30 year old Rochcester. The new Holley carb I bought seems to be what it was 30 years ago as well.

I have been tempted to go FI a time or two, I just hate to get rid of the feel of the original car. Just personal preference. FI has its good points, but I trade them all for the sound of the wide-open secondaries of the QJet.

Trying to get a carb dialed in perfect for idle, cruise and WOT is next to impossible without a wideband A/F meter. So if you don't have one then of course the FI motor will give you all the benefits mentioned above like fuel econonmy, part throttle response etc. ect.

If you get a wideband A/F meter like the LM-1 then the advantage of FI goes away very quickly. You can tune a carb to work just as good as FI if you know what you are doing. It takes some time and some reading but mine runs perfect in all areas.

I doubt FI would improve my overall engine performance. I have a BG racing carb on my 550HP small block and everything works as it should with regard to idle, part throttle response and driveability and I get over 25mpg on the highway.

If you don't have a wideband you are shooting in the dark and yes the FI out performs hand down, if you do have a wideband there is no real advantage of FI :thumbs:

Wayne, I agree with you on the wideband point. That makes a trial and error...shoot from the hip....process a whole lot more logical and systematic. However I disagree that a carb can adapt to the variables that the real world environment presents. The modern EFI systems have multiple sensors that dial in the fuel and ignition (timing) real time as the environment changes. Some of us old timers my dismiss that as being insignificant, but it is not. Another example is sequential injection, I have heard from numerous people including so called EFI experts that sequential is a waist of time, but the fact of the mater is, if you do allot of engine dyno testing you would see measurable performance benefit, especially at midrange and multiple acceleration profiles like those experienced in road racing. I can only sum up by saying, if anyone thinks that Chevrolet could achieve the performance that they realize today on the Z06, with a carb......they are smoking something and it ain't cigarette's.

Bullshark

photovette, i had the gt3000 twin turbo as well, exactly 10 years ago, the very same day i took it from the dealer i drove streight into the best italian efi tuner in milan and first i through away that BS exhaust sistem it had (did you seee it?? wtf!), second they've through away all restrictions and tricks the car had to comply with 'pollution' iussues and then they tuned it, what drove me nuts was to see into the engine bay! to change a plug you had to take away half engine! i've never check the oil myself, i never found the oil stick! among all thous wires, plastic and steel items...it was a good cruiser for 'ENTHUSIAST CUNSUMERS'...but not for me.:nono:

:iagree: on the diversity

but i dont agree on the efi iussue, an efi car is good, right, for going to the office every morning, consuming a bit less, comply to the pollution iussues, be a good and politically correct working days consumer BUT our passion is made of smoked tires, uncombusted gas polluted air and a good kick in the a$$ to the car when it doesnt want to start in the morning...it's our niche of politically uncorrect moments for the week ends:)

Maybe not GM but I am building a 427ci small block in my basement I and I expect to smoke a Z06 LS7 427ci and get good gas mileage and driveability out of it :lol:

Good for you Wayne:thumbs: I have a hard time swallowing some of those guys :bs too! I took the easy way out and dumped a RamJet 502 in my C3. Wish you lived closer, I come up there and help you put FI on that beast and really make some hay:D

Bullshark

I agree somewhat here that is why I do not have FI on my car. For the amount I drive it right now just not worth it. Someday Iprobably will go tha troute just for the challenge. For now the Demon carb is making plenty of HP

if i had the money to blow, i would be in the efi crowd bigtime. i put efi on a wrangler and it was night and day difference! as for all you guys barking about efi getting better MPG, that is a huge misconception. 99% of the mileage from newer vehicles comes from something called overdrive. hell, some cars have 2 overdrives! efi is not the real reason for the mileage gain. think about it.:cheers:

:iagree: I think its the challenge and to be different.Beside you almost have to be a computer expert to tune fi,which im not and i think most people on here are not .im old school,too old to learn new tricks i guess,but i just dont see the need to go to fi.I have all the high tech gagetry on my other vehicle and i need a professional to mess with it.It sucks,if it werent for emissions i would have changed to carb.

:iagree:

Holleys ,better response ,no power valves blowing everytime the carb back fires,better venturies,better porting,mettering,etc.The concept is basically the same just improved upon.Holley also had a carb that was just 2 piece ,easy to take apart,good throttle response,no blown power valves.I forgot the id number of the carb right now off hand.

:iagree: My new mustang only gets ~4-5 mpg better than my vette.
Mustang: 3 valve, port fuel injection, 280 ci, 1 overdrive, 3.73 gears
Vettte: 2 valve, BG double pumper, 350 ci, no overdrive, 3.08 gears

I love the mustangs drivability, and hey it's getting 300HP out of a small 280ci engine using 87 octane. I actually think its quite amazing how they can get over 1 HP per cubic inch using 87 octane, but I think this is not due to the FI alone. The airflow and combustion chambers have got to play a BIG role in this too.

The corvette is a ZZ4 running a BG 650 double pumper and a 5 speed (no overdrive). It makes close to 400HP, but requires 93 octane unlike the mustang. Both cars are enjoyable to drive, just in different ways.

If ANYONE has any doubts about the advantages of EFI, jump into a blown C5. You won't even know it has 550 HP until you stomp the gas. Same deal with the new Z06. Idles so quietly and you can putter around parking lots all day on pump gas. Slam the accerater, jump on the brake, not even a sputter or hint of hesitatioin.

My wife finds it very easy to dump both accelerator pumps of a Holley into a motor and crank it until the battery is completley DEAD! EFI will save my marriage!

Both Good
 

There is no doubt the EFI engine is easier to start, tune etc. On the other hand carbs are much better than just a few yrs. ago.

I was going to use this line of reasoning but use a wagon wheel as the example instead, I guess your more diplomatic than I am.:D

If your engine needed to last 100K miles and meet emission requirements you might not find it so easy to out run a LS7.

One more benifit, I'm not intimidated by todays OEM EFI.:D

come on...

Everyone KNOWS that red is the best !!!

The new LS7 motors in the C6 Z06 are dropping valves into the motor more or less blowing them up on a semi regular basis, check it out on their Z06 forum. It is debatable they will get to 100K with any regularity.

Slap a pair of high flow cats on the 427ci I am building and it would meet emmissions standards in most places.

Tuning a OEM EFI is childs play compared to properly tuning a carb ( I am not talking about changing jets and idle mixure here ) with a wideband, now that really gets complicated :thumbs:

Now you are talking Wayne:thumbs: I knew we would agree eventually ;) :cheers:

Bullshark

i like old school as well. not worth the money. check out c&s billet aerosol carb. i would like to see an engine tuned with this carb and then with efi and see what the real differences are. plus, when you start looking at fuel mpg, it has come down more to cumbustion chamber design/timing and the overdrive trans. efi helps but is a small role. newer shallower chambers have made the engine more effiecent!

:lolg: ...That is friggin hilarious.....!!...:rofl:

Holleys modern carb(s) couldn't sell.
 

Holley models 4010 and 4011 i believe were modern performance carbs. Good boosters, 2 piece with a top hat eliminated the bowl leaks, manual or vacuum sec, square or spreadbore too. Most were shiny alumium bodies but no-one wanted to buy them. They no longer looked like a Holley and it just turned buyers off. Kind'a had the advantages of Carter AFB and Holleys combined - and the Qjet spreadbore too.
I still see them for sale used at swapmeets only but don't know if Holley even supports them with parts at all.

Yea Holley made an improved carb and no-one wanted to change - even with Holleys name on it. Carb lovers wanted a Holley because they understood how they worked and recognized Holleys as they were - not a shiny bastard with a top hat instead of fuel bowls. It takes more than good ideas and a brand name to sell something to hotrod enthusiests and racers too. Well maybe it looked too much like a FORD Autolite carb.:lolg:

Anyone run a 4010 or 4011?
cardo0:bigears

Lets see.

24 mpg, idles nice and smooth, starts on the first crank after 3 months, and runs a 12 second quarter mile. This is my second FI conversion and will not be my last. Do I hate carbs, nope they just remind me of old tube radios. They actually work good once they warm up.

:lol: that's right there w/ zwede's bias-tire quip

I actually thought exactly what you guys do about carbs all my life untill I got a LM-1 and met a guy who actually forgot more about carbs than I ever knew. Without his help I would still be trying to figure out how to tune my Race Demon.

If you buy a carb and bolt it on make a few adjustments to the float level, idle mixture screws and jets you are just getting it in the ballpark so the motor will run. You will never get the carb properly dialed in unless you can "see" what is going on with a A/F meter.

What you need to do is monitor the A/F at idle, light load, part throttle, WOT etc. From there you will find yourself drilling power valve channel restrictors ( if needed ) , changing emulsion bleeds, drilling and changing high speed air bleeds, idle air bleeds, jets , power valves etc etc depending on what you are seeing on the A/F meter. It is a very time consuming process but the benefits of a properly tuned carb in the end are worth it. You get the nice idle ( not on mine though with the cam) good off idle response, nice clean crisp throttle response when you get on it and like I have already stated good gas mileage, as I posted above I get over 24mpg with my 550HP 406ci.

SO to sum up for the last time, EFI is hands down better across the board than a non tuned carb, but a properly tuned carb will give up nothing to EFI :thumbs:

You guys make me want to run webers/dellortos.

Now where did I put those.....

Dead on MotorHead, trying to tune a carb without the correct tools is tuning blindfolded. But with the right tools it can be done correctly and the carb will perform flawlessly. BullShark didn't mean to raise your :bs flag :) but I would suggest you spend a little time over at the LM-1 web site and do a little reading, very knowledgable tuners over there, alot to learn about carbs and tuning them.:)

I'm with Zwede. My house doesn't have single pane windows, an outhouse, or use coal, although many houses used to. Often times, newer things are better.

One thing that most folks have failed to mention is that the aftermarket EFI systems usually come with a great computer and software. Several of us are running the Holley C950 system. At any time, all sorts of parameters in the engine can be measured and/or adjusted - not just the fuel but the ignition, fans, water temp, system voltage, etc. With a system like this, you know exactly what's happening in the engine at all times if you want. It makes it much easier to tune and trouble shoot when something goes wrong... :)

That be the 4010 and 4011 a spreadbore. One of my favorites. Copied from the old Ford Autolite 4100. They do still have power valves.

Yes :thumbs:

Sorry chevyman. I didn't mean to pick you out for the flag. :o It was my general response to the topic and you happened to be convenient. I definitely do appreciate the points that some of you knowledgeable carb guys make, but I have "been there done that" over the years. I am sure I am more of an old timer (but not old school) than almost all of you. I think it is human nature to avoid things we are not knowledgeable or comfortable with, in favor of those things we know. I am sure my background causes me some bias toward electronic FI, because that is what I know best.
One good example of what I am talking about is a problem I am dealing with right now. I just purchased a "brand new" Holley original, correct replacement, List 4555 carb for the 70 LT-1. $600 by the way:willy: Everything setup per factory right out of the box....I checked all the accessible stuff:yesnod: I installed it per original configuration replacing a perfectly good after market Holley 3310. I now have an off idle hesitation and an even more touchy startup. It's not timing, distributor, vacuum, accel pump/nozzle etc. cause I checked all the easy stuff and it all worked fine with the 3310. I know I will be able to eventually figure it out, but if I had EFI, It would have been solved in a heartbeat. I have pigeon holed it in favor of finishing the installation of a sequential Accel DFI system on RamJet. I know some of you guys won't agree, but when I am done, it will out perform anything I (or anyone else) could have done with a carb. It's been fun, but you guys finally wore me out:rofl:

Peace :cheers:
Bullshark

EFI has been a huge improvement over carburetor, I have been around long enough to remember the carbureted vehicles myself and family/friends have owned in the past and the drivability problems carburetors have caused. I can remember buying my first EFI equipped truck, a 1990 Chevy extended cab, and enjoying the way it performed and it's unbelievable 18 mpg highway economy. At the time I couldn't believe that much improvement was possible. The prior truck was a 1980 K10 that was getting 11 mpg hwy. I like EFI's ability to enable a engine to start right up from a cold start and run perfectly until the time it's shut off, and if something go awry, it's ability to help pinpoint the problem, I would never want to return to a carb. Sorry if this offends anyone but this has been the observations of myself and nearly anyone I've talked to on this subject over the years. EFI, along with the modern overdrive transmission and the catalytic converter have done more to clean up the air, improve the fuel mileage and the longevity of our cars than anything else.

I'm an old school freak. I love my carbed 79 Vette. But comparing fi to carb is like apples and oranges. Sure, a carb can match fi for max performance, but fi does so much more and better. The new Z06 hauls ass and is my performance goal for my 79. Yea, I know, good luck with that. But the Z06 does it while meeting 2007 emission requirements, does not qualify for the gas guzzler tax, and my Mom could drive it! Try all of that without fi and some other modern advances. FI, hydraulic roller cam, and an aluminum block, hydraboost brakes, and a paddle shift 4L60E, are all on my wish list.
The question we should ask ourselves is why do we do all of these expensive mods on our C3s when C5s can be had so cheap? A cop pulled up next to me on the way home from church yesterday. We made eye contact and I waved. When the light turned green, I pulled away leisurely. He hung back, obviously to check my tags and exhaust. When he pulled up beside me again, we made eye contact again. This time he gives me a big grin and a thumbs up. I drive my car maybe once a week. Something like that happens every time, especially when I gas up. We would have to drive $200k Italian exotics to get that kind of enthusiastic response that often from kids and adults. I bet Bankok Dean and Panic enjoy it even more than we do here stateside. I will continue to integrate high tech parts onto my Vette and enjoy driving it for the rest of my active driving years. A rough day at the office, or a rough day at home needs, no requires, a Harley ride or better yet, a C3 Corvette drive. Makes everything better.
My opinion only. Your results may differ slightly.

:iagree: Could not have said it better, the lines, the shape, the curves are just so dam "senseous" . You have a good handle as to why,,,Peace, Moosie:seeya

I'm about to go down the LM-1 path to set up a 600 Holley equipted 72 BB. Any recommendations as to what to read, other than the LM manual or the threads on the Innovative website forums?

:cheers:

BB NJ Ken

A big chunk of the comments in this thread are being made by people that don't know of all the different FI options. I have a Megasquirt FI system. This is a so called do it yourself system. My dad soldered all the parts together, and we both did the installation. I made brackets to hold the crankshaft position sensor and the ignition coils. I also installed the fuel pump and return line, various relays, and the new intake manifold and fuel rails. Now, I have complete control over the fuel and ignition maps. It is up to me to make the car run the way I want it. How is that different than someone setting up a carb? Not every FI system is something you just pull out of a box and it runs. I don't take it to a service tech when in breaks. Since I know exactly how the system went together, I can fix it.

The comments about being a computer nerd to tune FI are pretty far off as far as I am concerned. I pull up a map with the engine running. I move the mouse over the point the engine is currently at, and I either add fuel or take it away until I get what I want. How hard is that? The Megasquirt (and most others) system allows you to make direct changes. I don't drill holes and change metering rods, I simply tell the computer to change the amount of fuel. And, I don't make sacrifices in another part of the map when I do it.

EFI is better for performance, reliability, long term cost (sometimes short term as well), operational efficiency, maintenance simplicity, accuracy for fuel delivery, accuracy of fuel concentration... etc. etc. etc.

all that being said my car is carbed for the sake of being old school, if i had to drive my car at all frequently, i would definitely want EFI. I cant tell you how many times its taken a good 30-60 seconds for me to fire the old girl up, and every rev im just imagining my ring wear :eek:

but all personal preferences aside, i think you would have a really tough time arguing that old technology is "just as good" as cars that benefit from newer technology.

Good point. Of course not all new technology is good technology. I remember when Zora was unsucessful at getting GM to agree to mid engine. At the time it was thought that all future sports cars would be mid-engine or rear engine. 40 years later, Ferrari is making front engine rear wheel drive. Also, all high performance engines would be dual overhead cam, four valve per cylinder, 8,000rpm beasts. Chevy stuck with simple overhead valve, single cam, and Vettes are back to 7 liters again. It's back to the future. Another thing I like about the Chevy Corvette is that the newer Vette technology and parts can be adapted to older Vettes. My car has C5 Z06 wheels, C4 tranny, fiberglass rear spring, and soon an LT4 Hot Cam.

:iagree:

I bought an LM-1 so I could work on my CFI, the most user unfriendly to tune system I have ever seen, especially when you shoot nitrous.

Once I changed to Holley carb and Edelbrock manifold, I found I was runnig slightly lean. I changed the primary jets from 65s to 68s, it took <10 mins and expense of <$15 and I'm crusing at 14.7, stoichimetric, A/F mixture and > 20 mpg. You can't beat that.

I love my LM-1 so much I mouted it semi-permanently.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y13...s/IMG_0566.jpg



:thumbs:

I must be "Old School":D http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h2...ko/parts-2.jpg

How did you mount that LM-1, got any other pics of it ? :thumbs:

I do! I fabbed the mount from carbon fiber/ epoxy but you could build the same shape from sheet metal. I put velcro on the top of the box and the LM-1. The side piece slides between the passenger seat and the console. As you know, the LM-1 unplugs easily. I remove or hide the whole assembly when I have to leave her unnatended.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y13...s/IMG_0570.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y13...s/IMG_0568.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y13...s/IMG_0569.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y13...s/IMG_0567.jpg

Cool idea, I am going to make one :thumbs:

Space age Carbon fiber epoxy?.....Holley carb......come on Clint, can't you make up you mind? You going to be "Old school" or not:rofl: :D

:jester

Bullshark

:lol: :lol: :lol: :bs

My life is a paradox. :lol:

I thought that was funny also.

Well your points though are arrangement issues and sizes, which isnt a fair comparison to relating EFI vs carbs. Yes corvette has gone back to 7.0 litres, but that new motor is nothing at ALL like the old one. That would be a valid point if they were slapping the old 454's back in but thats just simply not what they did, those two motors are nothing alike other than their displacement.

As for mounting that strickly a design/preferance issue, there are pros and cons to each, and Porsche's Carrera GT (which is possibly the fastest street legal car you can buy atm) uses a mid-engine, AWD (I think, maybe RWD) setup. But a lot of people dont like the noise and handling changes that come from this. it all comes down to personal preference, I think AWD handles better but I dont WANT it to handle awesome all the time :). Anyone who owns a C3 is clearly not concerned with what "works" the best as these car are very inefficient and un-reliable (wives anyone?), but we love them anyways (wives anyone?) :)

not trying to bash you down or anything i just think the point there was a little off-topic :cheers:

I also Like the look of FI:D

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...1/IMG_1439.jpg
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...1/IMG_1427.jpg
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...1/IMG_1425.jpg
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...ORVETTE001.jpg
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...ORVETTE004.jpg
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

Did I forget to say FI ROCKS !!!!! :D

Why go high tech when old school is just as fast?
How are my comments off topic?

One big plus for modern hitech FI computer managed installations, is the ability to have multiple tunes which can be exchanged very quickly to provide reliable and optimised tunes for various specific activities....

a tune optimised for good street performance or economy on pump gas
a tune optimised for circuit racing/motorkhana using higher octane fuel
a tune optimised for drag strip using racing fuel and/or NOS etc

You can't do that easily with a carby!

The tune in old school carb setups is optimised for one scenario only,
or compromised to deal with multiple uses.

Having said that, most of us who have C3's don't use them as daily drivers, and accept the compromise.
After all, there's a lot of other compromises we accept which we put down to the idiosyncrasy of driving a classic.
:thumbs:

I have EFI on my Harley and I love it. I wanted to add it to the 400sbc I am doing however the cost difference is huge from what I can tell. I am just at the planning stages of my build and have been trying to compare prices. I am not quite a gearhead and never built a motor so I am not sure yet all the small parts needed for a carb setup that might be included with a EFI example; fuel pump.
I would like to see a part list price comparison so I can be more aware. Oh and where to buy other than Summit.

Efi makes more power easier,better throttle response,the advantage is hands down over a carb.


Then take LSX engine,makes power easier,cheaper to build,don't need high dollar heads,and what not to make the same power.

What's the valve angle on LSX heads ?

I think it's 15.

Whew....this one took on a life of it's own!!

Here's my take....EFI is great stuff....I love it on my daily driver stuff. I don't even want to know if there is an engine under there...I want instant starts anytime, no burps or sneezes etc etc.

But I sure like a carb on my Hot Rod toys. Cool is cool.......

If you play around you can get a carb to do pretty decent...

I can't remember when the last time was that I had a Holley PV blow....if you're blowing PV's it ain't the carbs fault..you've got timing issues or it's big time lean for some reason. In fact...can't even remember when I ever had my motor pop back through the carb at all??

Those old Motorcraft carbs actually had fantastic response and ran pretty well. The Holley copy did too..but they sure looked funky!!

So let's see....you use a system with a vacuum signal or a feedback O2 sensor that tells computer how much fuel to send. It gets that info from a table. Someone has to put that table together.....most folks won't spend the time to work out that table. In fact..every EFI guy I know spends more time playing with the tables in the computer than I ever spend messing with a carb. Then they tell you how the EFI instantly tunes for infinite variables. Yes....THEY INFINITELTY TUNE!! What's the difference? You're still constantly tweeking and playing with it...but you're right..no gas smell!!

A well set up carb is an infinitely variable fuel metering device that always responds to ALL the conditions....load, vacuum, heat, altitude etc. Sometimes it operates well out of it's normal range and you have to do something to it..but usually they can do everything pretty well.

Modern OEM EFI setups are a complete package. That includes cams with little to no overlap, incredible flowing heads, higher comperssion, better exhaust, super long runners in many cases and LOTs and LOTS of time tuning those tables. Look at how rotten most late models run at low speeds and idle as soon as you change just the cam. When you move to the stuff that we all like for big power....you're right back to tuning..whether it's carb or EFI.


JIM

Jim.....That post was about as much double talk as I have ever heard come out of your mouth:willy: Even after all those Jack's down at CI:rofl: :leaving:

Bullshark

Umm.... sounded like a test question Wayne. You aren't challenging l88rocket statements are you:ack: I don't have a position on the second comment but he is "right on" with the first. :D I spent the night at a Holiday Inn so my previous statement about "you guys wore me out" is history. :boxing :D

By the way, was Big_G correct? :yesnod:

Bullshark

Hey ...just the facts you know???


Different things require different approaches. I personally enjoy watching people walk up to me with watery eyes after sitting behind me at a red light!!

But I *could* throw in a nice little weenie cam and take care of that...NOT!!!


JIM

What chew talkin about Willis :toetap: ;)

Bullshark

Go take a look at how the LSX fuel injection system really works.

The PCM is very, VERY intelligent.

There are power modes and cruise modes. There are modes for when you're backing out of throttle or entering throttle. You only need ONE tune, but assuming that tune is done well, it will cover all things well.

Carbs can compensate for these things as well, but to nowhere near the degree that a fuel injection system can.

Two things separate a carb from a FI:
1) Sensitivity (output vs input)
2) Intelligence. Carbs are not.

i was just saying that what you are comparing isnt really fairly aligned with what we were talking about ;)

:iagree: From all that has been talked about,it tells me that high tech just isnt worth it,no body has really hit on the cost of these high tech gizmos and parts.The cost out ways old school by far and you really arent getting a MAJOR difference in performance.Thats what i was tring to understand ,why people would spend so much for not a big improvement in hp.I guess it really is just preference,or to be different then the rest.

I was actually saying that you had a good point. I also did some more old tech to new tech comparisons, just like the title and spirit of the thread. I don't understand what wives have to do with it all. Although when my wife turned 50, I did joke about trading her in for two 25s, but I couldn't handle even one 25. I'll keep her and my '79. I'm not foolin' when it comes to old schoolin'.:)

Ok i'm back in this again.
 

Mr. Hotrod your comments were right on regarding tunig EFI.:iagree: My DD is a GEN II LT1 and everything with that EFI costs $300 to improve. Just a hand held scanner for the OBD I is $300. Then the tuning box for the OBD I is $300+. U want a tuning box/scanner combo >>>$300.:eek: Now most tuners will opt for a laptop PC for tuning which is $300++ for even a used laptop. U need softeware for the PC tuning also - well this is a break <$300 but u need a custom cable too so $300 here we come again.:willy: Higher flow/press injectors - u guessed right = $300. High flow throttle body - again $300. Now a new intake elbow with K&N filter is only $200 - man finally a break. Fuel press reg $$$? Now what is your time worth to verify all you fuel and timing curves let alone install the parts? Yes we do have to make those curves with a carb also but resolution is limited - not so with a laptop and EFI.:skep:
IMHO a full EFI upgrade will cost you as much as parts for an entire replacement motor. I would rather spend that cash for a stroker crank, rods, pistons, block, heads and just bolt on a $400 brand spank'n new Demon or Holley carb to have an entire replacement engine ready.

Bullshark i'm sorry to read u see EFI tuning woes as double talk. But u can search here on the forum and easily read plenty of disipointed EFI conversion posts. We see u have had great success with EFI and feel very comfortable using it - but plenty others don't.:banghead: There is a learning curve for a performance EFI and i congratulate u for achiving good results with yours.:cheers: IMHO i just cannot recommend a novice to upgrade his C3 to EFI. Not when i can find great carbs for <$300. And really i expect most C3 owners bought a carburated eng for that old tech/somewhat nastolgic attraction. I truley say i didn't buy my carb'ed C3 to upgrade to EFI - i wanted to run a big azz 4 barrel or maybe two.:cool:

That's enough of my gass'n for now.:lol:
cardo0

cardo.....don't get your shorts all in a bunch:D I was just pulling 427Hotrods chain. Yep, playing around in this hobby and on this forum is definitely not cheap:crazy: But I don't think that was the point of this particular thread. The implication was "why go high tech when old school is just as fast" (i.e. good). Better does not come cheap.

Bullshark

By the way, including the cost of a PC was hitting below the belt. Even the old school guys probably have one of those;) else we couldn't set in front of the TV watching BJ while playing on the forum

Yep...me and the Bull go way back........way back to the ice chest to mix another Jack Daniels!!

Bullshark has his EFI working great....now if he would just let me talk into some ridiculous cam...I could screw that all up quickly and give him a REAL tuning challenge!!

JIM

A big part of it is - Do you like to drive your car, or do you like to fiddle around with it...?? :)

If you are out on a cruise and hundreds of miles from home, do you want to trust your ride to 30 year old parts??

:lol: :lol: Yeh......I still remember that night when you were "tuning" that carb on the Hampton parking lot between Jacks:rofl: Now I know how you old school guys get them dialed in so accurate.

Bullshark

it's all dependant upon what you're used to and what you want out of it.

It sounds to me like you made up your mind before even making the post. I don't think anybody would argue that FI makes more peak HP than a carb. I would suggest that FI make more average HP, and I believe Hot Rod had such a comparison in the last year or so. However, those of us using FI did not typically go that route because we wanted more HP. We did it for driveability, cold starts, ease of tuning (I can get a lot more done with a laptop than I can with metering rods and jets), and because we like the idea of fuel injection. If that's not you, keep on using the carb. There are plenty of people that get a carb setup properly and enjoy playing with jets and metering rods. I'm just not one of them.

Ken