I'm rebuilding the '65 350
 

...to a 383 stroker.
I had a little mishap and instead of driving (limping) around with a patch job to the rod bearing from underneath, I decided to open her up and see what's what and drive her the way she's supposed to be driven! It'll be a 383 stroker after all is said and done!
These are the parts I will be using. I'd like opinions as to what cam will work with these. OK, so far I have:

Muncie M21 with 4.11's in rear

Holley 4bbl model 4150 list 4779-9 750 DP (rebuilding to over 750cfm by a pal) using a Holley Red label electric fuel pump (universal)

Edelbrock C3BX dual plane aluminum intake manifold (replacing the old Torker single plane)

J&C assembled hi performance aluminum heads; 64cc, 190cc runners, 2.02/1.60 valves, .600 valve springs, str8 plugs.

The rebuilder will be supplying the 400 crankshaft (not forged)

They'll be boring the 350cid block .030 over to make it a 383 (don't know if it's been done before)l. I'll presume that the block is acceptable and 4 bolt! Theyll have to inspect before we proceed. They're very good people to work with and told me they would work with me for whatever I wanted.

They will also supply a cam that they feel would work best with that set up. Before I get this done, I researched the cam threads and read alot of good stuff on cams but can't quite put my finger on the right one yet. They are suggestion Lunati, and I've heard of the L79's that I've read good reports about. Elgin is also in the running. Remember, to save funds, I am using the parts as above so what I'm paying for at this time is the new cam, new crank, machine shop work, and labor to put it together.

Also I'll be asking for forged flat top pistons unless they talk me into dished to prevent high compression detonation with what they want to use for cam

So, what would YOU do? I appreciate all you guys' help :lurk:

I'd get rid of the double pumper carb first off.

Use the 5.7 length 350 rods.

I'd keep the compression around actual 10.5. I'm not a fan of dropping compression any lower than necessary.

The cylinder head people could make a good recommendation for a camshaft that's compatible with the heads. Take into account what type of exhaust system you'll be running.

I don't think you'll need to pay for the forged pistons. Use hyperuetectic unless you have good reason to use the forged.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention the exhaust. I'll be using the current Hooker headers with side pipes. They are serviceable and I don't need to pay for extra stuff. What's the difference between forged and hypereutectic?

I can't give you tech advice, but I can tell you one thing. GET IT ALL IN WRITING! We have seen and heard our small share of engine shop miscues here on the forum and the anguish they create....you don't want that! :cheers: Dennis

I'm not sure of how you''ll use you car when you finish. These would be my comments on how I would have rebuilt mine, and then I spent more time and money, to get it to the point it is now. I wish someone had told me the following.

The rear end your running will only be enjoyable in town. If you are thinking of driving long distance or on a highway anywhere, the engine rpms will drive you nuts.

I kept my 3.70's but installed a 5-speed and now have both worlds.

Dennis

OCS, I have thought about that because I have driven for 2 hours straight and the noise did start to get to me. But I won't do that so often, but I do plan to race at the drags every so often, so the 4.11's will stay (and I enjoy it on the street too). I have also thought about 5 speed, but the tranny is good right now and just the engine needs work, so for now, that's all I have fundage for.
Bluestripe, that's good advise and I ALWAYS get things in writing, no matter what. Thanks.
MikeM, I emailed the head people and will wait for their response. I chose forged just for strength since I'll be drag racing too. Why lose the DP?

The hypereutectic pistons are not as strong as a forging, typically have different expansion rates than a forging due to the alloys used, and are not the best if you intend to hammer the engine hard. For just cruising and the occasional "put-your-foot-in-the-kitchen', they will be fine and save you some coin.

Sounds like a sound build so far. With the money you are spending why not spend a little more and get a full roller set up? The heads you have selected are good heads and would be well used with a good sized roller cam. Also there is nothing wrong with a DP. I have been running BG SD 650 and 750 on my motor with no problems. The 650 is now on my father's ZZ4 motor. No choke on either of them.

Don't let them talk you into a high volume oil pump a stock Melling 55 will be just fine. With you being in Kalifornia are you sure you want to run 10.5 compression? I can get good gas here in NC and still only built mine to 10 to 1 with aluminium heads. Did I leave some on the table sure but how much 5-10 hp and I don't have to worry about finding gas.

Is there a reason that you want to go with the C3BX manifold vs the RPM Performer? You didn't mention what rods or pistons that you are going with. I would be suspect of the old rods that are in there. How about what timing gear set are you going with?

Make sure that they discuss with you how much they will be boring the cylinders as well as how much the will be taking off the deck. Once they let you know how far you are in the hole ask what head gasket thickness they will be going with so you KNOW what your compression will be.

We can't wait to hear more about your motor!!! Trust me the Forum loves spending other peoples money....

:lol: Ain't it the truth. Its so easy :lol:

It looks like you have some decent parts to work with. The 4 spd, 4.11 gears,a nd 190 CC heads look like a decent match.

I would recommend going with forged pistons, simply because I do not know anyone with a 4 spd, 4.11 gears, and aluminum heads that aren't out there beating on their car.

I would also consider a vacuum secondary carb, rather than a 750 double pumper. You'll see better drvability and a few more MPG. I would look for a carb in the 650 CFM range.

Regarding your choice of intake, is there any particular reason you are going with a C3B? I would think the Torker would be a better match for your 4.11 gears and 190 CC heads. I second Hitch's suggestion for an Edelbrock Performer RPM. You can even drill it for an oil fill tube if you desire.

I am currently running an unported C3B on my dished-piston 383. This is a relatively low-buck engine I originally built for my truck, nothing special. With a mild HR cam, and a 3.36 posi, my 62 Vette went 12.64 @ 107.97 on 11/22/08 at Famoso Raceway. The C3B has poor fuel distribution, and I have some plugs reading rich, a couple reading lean, and some that look about right. On the chassis dyno, power fell off at 5000 RPM with the C3B.

Your 190 heads probably take a 1205 gasket. The Torker intake could be opened up to a 1205 Felpro, and ported through its full length. A guy I race with is trapping at 118 MPH in the 1/4 through a ported Torker.

Given the issues with modern oil and flat tappet cams, I would consider an HR cam. The HR cam will boost your torque and throttle response. I went with a mild HR, and our car idles like a kitten, but violent wheelspin is just a blip of the throttle away...

Hi guys. Thanks for all the great responses! The Edelbrock C3B"X" was given to me by a friend, and since it's double plane (and free), and I mostly drive the streets and occassionally drag race, thought it would be a better fit at mid range rpms. I can always replace with the Torker if I miss it.
I want to use the same LT1 valve covers that are on currently so I'll stick with the standard set up rather than full rollers.
I am going with forged pistons (new since the block is getting bored out .030)
For some reason that I can't put my finger on, I like my Holley DP and will still use it for now, especially since I already have it. I'll just get it rebuilt and cut off the choke housing for better airflow. May go to around 800cfm. If gas goes up again then I'll consider a vacuum secondary for economy (if that word is in the Corvette dictionary).
I'll look into the HR cams. I remember reading about them previously (I thought they were rollers).
I will be keeping the rest of the car stock, so it will have to handle whatever is placed in the engine compartment, so it has to be conservative but to the maximun limits. I don't want you guys spending my money buying driveshafts, race slicks, suspension parts and general beefing up toys for a pro setup. I just want her to kick more arse than before!:lol:

Lets take this from the top.. 800 CFM is WAY to much for what you are discussing. 650 Okay 750 OKAY.. 800 NO..

The full roller will fit under stock valve covers no problems especially with the AFR heads. The only thing you have to do is make sure you don't get the tall poly locks. We can definitely spend money but not on the things you mention. I think that like Wes, Myself, Brian and others we only want you to think of the whole engine not individual parts that you want.
Dave

Thanks Dave. I am thinking of the whole engine, and the parts that I have already are going to be the whole engine. I just don't have the cam to go with yet. Bear with me now, why is 800cfm way too much? Way too much what? I thought the cfm means airflow, so that's not bad, is it? Unless that much airflow disrupts something in the carb or intake that I haven't read about yet. If it's too high, then I'll leave the choke housing and blade on and leave it at 750, but I need a reason since I'm not mechanically inclined. I need something to make me say hmmm.
BTW, your current avatar is better than your cat one :lol:

OK dokk, here goes. (jees, do i have to do all the math for you...:willy::rofl:)
convert CI to CF 12"x12"x12"=1728 CI=1CF
383 CI=.2216 CF
the engine is going to have 3000 intake strokes at 6000 RPM (4 stroke engine)
.2216CF x 3000=664.8 CFM of airflow.

on your carb you are mistaken, removing the choke housing will NOT increase airflow, that is a function of the diameter of the venturies. removing the choke housing just eleminates a possible restriction between the top of the choke housing and the air cleaner lid.

EDIT--theres your hmmm.
it is a well known fact that you can gain a little more HP by going slightly larger that the 665 CFM airflow required (this 665 CFM is calculated at 100% VE).
now your carb is a little large but since you already have it-go with it.
also, with those heads-unless you are going to do the chamber mods i described (i figure NOT), with a 383 CI build consider pistons with a small dish the keep the CR on the safe side (remember mine calced out at 10.71 without the chamber mods, that's a little high-:ack:)

hey wes, no offence intended, but i'm the guy who gave dokk the C3BX manifold. if i thought there was anything wrong with it i would not even have offered it to him (it would make me look bad-:rofl:) i ran that manifold on my 64-fuelie heads, 30-30 cam with the hookers he has and the fuel mix was dead even. all the plugs always came out with that light brown on the insulators and if i mixed them up nobody could one spark plug from another. i think you may have had a carb problem. while i don't remember racing any vettes back in the old days, i did race a lot of big block chevelles and super sports and beat the snot out of them with that C3BX manifold on my car. so does anybody know what the X stands for on the C3BX manifold??? :lurk: could it be experimental??

I'm not much on aftermarket parts but I'm thinking the "3" in CB3 stood for the center divider being cut out to use a three barrel Holley carb. Yeah, I know. Some of you never heard of a three barrel.

Also, the fact this engine is going to be used as a driver instead of a thrasher is why I suggested the hyper pistons. True, they're not as strong as forged but they're much stronger than cast pistons. They're okay to use in nitrous engines. Why not in a driver engine and save money? New design forged pistons may fit tighter. Don't know. The ones I'm familiar with fit around .005 clearance and are noisy. Doesn't bother me. I like the sound but others may not.

Same with the cam. If you want the thing to sound period correct, get a flat tappet cam. If you want it to sound "funny" get the roller. If sound doesn't matter to you, dis-regard the previous.

One more time. The static compression you can run will depend on several factors. One key factor is the camshaft you intend to run. Pick the camshaft and then shop for the compression.

You need to do your due dilligence before selecting heads and pistons. So many builders throw a bunch or parts together in the hopes that a good enigne will be born. Before your selections are made you need to tear down the engine and take measurements.

Also, I huge carb may give you some incremental power at high RPM but it will make your car difficult to drive as it will not respond well to changes in the throttle. Think about it, if adding HP was a simple as adding CFM, everyone would be driving around with 1000 CFM carbs.

Too big a carb will give you sluggish throttle response off-idle. Unless you spin the engine to 8,000 RPM you won't be able to use that much flow anyway.

Mechron, no offense taken. I don't claim to be an expert. I don't question your motive for giving the intake to Astrodokk. I ran the C3B because I wanted an old school intake, and I wanted a breather so I could run closed valve covers.

The following are my experience and observations.

I pay pretty close attention to my car and tune. In May, I drove the car to Kentucky and back with the same carb and a Weiand #8120 dual plane intake. Plugs all looked good. On October 20, 2008 I raced my car, with the old stroked 327 engine and the Weiand 8120 dual plane intake. Drove 125 miles each way to the track, and the plugs looked good. I went back to the track the following weekend and ran a Weiand Team G. Plugs all looked good. The Team G was worth a few hundredths in ET and .5 MPH.

When I went to the track on 11/22/08, I drove, as before. This time, the car had my trucks 383, instead of the stroked 327 (with a re-ground F/T cam and doo-dah #461X heads).

The fresh 383 had a mild HR cam (.492/.501", 224/232* @ .050", 271/280* adv on a 112* LS). Plugs were fouled upon arrival at the track, and again upon inspection after the first pass.

FWIW, the stroked 327, with the Weiand dual plane idles with 18" of vacuum. With the Team G intake, the stroked 327 idled with 16.5" vacuum. The 383, with a milder cam and the C3B idles with only 16" of vacuum. On the chassis dyno, the engine went rich at upper RPM, but it wasn't rich in the lower revs. We dropped the secondaries 4 jet sizes, and power improved by 4 HP, and torque dropped 3 ft lbs to 446 ft llbs @ 2700 RPM. The fuel curve was still a little fat up top.I didn't get to do any other tuning, because there were other cars in line to be tested.

At least in my experience, the C3B was capable of allowing a 12.64 ET, with a 5000 RPM shift point (limited by my A/T trans being left in D). That was a decent E/T, all things considered. I smoked a few BB Chevelles with the old 327, but haven't raced any yet with the 383. I did thoroughly wax a new SRT8, though.

The unequal fuel distribution was my experience with the C3B. Your mileage may vary. :cheers:

Wes

Hey, Carlos,

I agree with the other folks - IMHO anything bigger than 600CFM on a street car tends to be overkill. Now, that's not to say that the 800 CFM DP that you have doesn't run well, but you may enjoy improved drivability with something smaller.

Swapping a carb is a relatively easy task...maybe you can borrow one from someone and try it out, see how it runs - and make your own decision based on driving experience.

Just my 2 cents; your mileage may vary.

PS I have a Holley 600CFM single pump with vacuum secondaries & electric choke - send me a PM if you're interested.

I realize that your comment was directed towards Carlos but I'm compelled to respond to relay my first-hand experience on the issue. I have read time and time again in this forum that "anything bigger than 600CFM on a street car tends to be overkill." Most times I just bite my tongue and let it go, because I know very little about carburetors. But I do know my experience with carbs.

Case in point - one of my best friends and I owned roadsters, his a 64 and mine a 63. (He has since sold his.) We both purchased and installed ZZ4 engines and Hooker ceramic-coat headers. We both ran 370 gears and both had 4 speeds. The only difference in our builds was the color of our cars and that I installed a new Edelbrock 750 Performer and he went with a new Edelbrock 600 Performer.

Boys being boys, we had to know who had the baddest machine. To his dismay and to my delight, I kicked his butt badly every single run. He ran back to the speed shop and bought a 750 Performer and all things were equal once again. True story. So just maybe there are exceptions to the rule. Hey, maybe Riverside Red is just a faster color than Sebring Silver. :lol: My 2 cents. :cheers:

- Pat

Your buddy should have fixed the one he had rather than take it back and get a bigger one. Must have been something wrong with it.

You may have beaten him slightly because of the the larger carb. If you "kicked his butt badly" he had a problem with the carb or something else. Maybe his secondarys weren't even opening. Anybody check it?

Carlos,

I built the engine attached below for my 32 Chebby powered Ford. Used mostly Edelbrock parts. Why? Because they all matched to give HP and TQ! You don't need a bigger carb, I ran a 650 and it was perfect. Also ran flat top pistons at 9.5:1. Edelbrock RPM heads and RPM airgap intake. Harlan sharp rollers, and healthy but streetable cam. Made 420hp @ 6000rpm and 435 TQ @ 4500rpm. Ran on pump gas, 91 octane. :thumbs:

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a2...ith/Motor3.jpg

All things being equal I have to disagree with this.. I've had a 650 on my car and now a 750 BGSD mech secondaries. The 650 gave up on the top end while the 750 provides a much nicer and stronger response.

If you use the carb calculators it will say that 600 is plenty. So I'll agree there but in real world operation on built small blocks 750 will be just fine.

Thanks for the feedback Mike. Both carbs were brand spanking new. I guess that doesn't necessarily mean that it didn't have a flaw. We both used the same 'carb guy' to install and fine tune both carbs. He's 'the' carb guy in these parts. Secondaries worked just fine on both. When I say that I "kicked his butt badly", I can assure you that the rate of separation was pretty impressive right through the gears and in top gear. So much so that he didn't hesitate to switch up to a 750. My buddy's an old car guy who's been driving hot rods all his life and he was puzzled and astonished how I whupped him. His 1st words after our first run were "I don't get it!"

You may very well be right that there was something wrong with his carb, but nothing the new 750 didn't fix. :cheers:

- Pat

Post Script on ZZ4
 

I just checked the website of some people who know more than a bit about the ZZ4 engine
and carburetors - GM Performance Parts. When I originally bought the engine, they
recommended a 750 c.f.m. carb for maximum performance. Looks like they still do. Here's
what they have to say about the engine:

They clearly don't seem to think a 750 is too much carburetor for a small block. Just another
side to a hotly debated issue. :cheers:

- Pat

Pat the Fastburn 385 comes with a 750 Holley also but hey what do we know right?:rofl::rofl::rofl:

I talked with the speed shop owner today at lunch and told him that I am using my old but rebuilt 750 DP and he said that was great for this build. I would still like to take the choke housing off to get less "restriction".:rolleyes:
I explained also that I am using the dual plane intake for now and he agreed that it would be better than the single plane. He didn't comment on the fact that it's just a C3BX or that I should use the RPM or Performer, although I know he includes those in his builds, because he knows that I'm on a budget and I gots what I gots. He seemed to really like the heads description, and he did say that after the crank and his selected cam go in, that is when he'll decide what size push rods to go with. He didn't discuss whether they would be SS or moly chrome etc...Also, I'll let him decide on hypereutectic vs forged pistons.
His car made the top 16 at the Infineon Pinks All Out last month, so he knows what he's doing and I've heard good things about him. He's also very staright forward and if he tells me that something won't work, I'll consider an upgrade. Kind of like with all you guys. All of you seem to know alot about this stuff and all the info I've read here will work. I'd like to see if it works with my spare parts and their new parts combo, like a Frankenstein motor! But keep the advise or comments coming. :grouphug:
PS I was asked why the upgrade to 383 and not just use the stock 350 crank and just rebuild. Well, since this is not a numbers engine or even original to the car, I figured why not! It's not that much more $$$ for some extra fun!

I don't think a 750 is too big for a small block either. Even a 780. 327 size and up. But I also know after many comparison passes through the quarter mile that there's very little difference between a stock 585 Holley and a 780 Holley, given they are jetted correctly. The bigger carb will have a slight edge. And that's measured in feet, not car lengths.

Maybe I am wrongly assuming there is something unique about the different sizes of Edelbrock carbs that doesn't apply to Holley?

Could be. :willy:

- Pat

With the 4:11's a 750 CFM a mech sec carb may be OK, but it's really hard to beat the throttle response of a 600 CFM vac sec Holley. I ran a 600 CFM vac sec Holley on a 402 that spun to 6500 RPM. It was in a 1970 C20. I tried a Vac sec. 750 on my L76 and I could tell there was a slight snap that was missing.

Mark

You got my attention with the "throttle response". I always thought the hesitation was due to the carb being very dirty and that it would get better when rebuilt, and I still think that will happen. I will see if it gets that snap that I'm missing currently. I've noticed some motors sound real quick on the pedal and others (like mine) kind of coughs a little. Again, it may just be very dirty.

The 750 will work good (very good).

With your setup the only reason to mill the 750's choke horn or housing is to gain a better airflow path with a drop base air cleaner and a 3" element. The top of the choke horn gets close to the air cleaner lid with the drop base. The solutions are to run a filtered lid, a 4" filter element (if you have room), or mill the choke horn (or do all three).

If you mill the choke horn ask the local carb guys about how far to mill. The old school guys will remember milling the horn completely off and blending the casting into the venturi opening. This is great for maximum airflow, but not so good for the booster signal at low airflow. The results are good for racing and high rpm, but not so good for street driving when you need good low rpm response.

The compromise is to leave about 1/4" of the choke horn above the casting. This retains much of the benefit of the horn's flow straightening influence at the boosters, and allows more airflow with the drop base.

With the 750cfm carb you have ample airflow and the need to maintain the low rpm response remains, even with a 383 (more so with a 27 or 350), so the old school tricks to gain airflow work but may not be the best compromise for your usage.

Ask around and get a few opinions, and plan on the air fliter setup to match the work on the carb (if you decide to do any work).

:cheers:

Carlos,

Looks like from all the suggestions you will be building a race motor. I was under the impression you just wanted to freshen it up and grab a little extra power with heads, pistons, etc. Now we are talking 383 and more? If that's the case, go with a crate motor and a warranty. :thumbs:

I don't think that he has specified a race motor only a street / strip motor that will be quite strong. However I agree most out there would be best served by purchasing a GMPP crate motor.:D

Update on engine build...
 

Well, today I discussed the parts that I have and the 383 kit that will be used, and the final decision will be exactly what cam to get. It boils down to if I should get one that is mild and courteous on the street and at stoplights, or a bumpity bumpity one that idles moderately rough to just out right rough! The latest one that has been mentioned is the Comp Cams "Thumper" which is a hyd. roller. Since the other parts are contribitory towards a very strong street/strip motor, he said why not go balls out? But...and that's a big but, will I like the sound? I heard those type of cams before on the street and I thought it's rather obnoxious. But then again I like loud sidepipes for a little while too. He has a car that has that in it and it will be at the shop next Wednesday when I take my car in so that I can have a listen. That cam will cut down on break in time as well. I'll have to decide if I want Thumper or some less hyd. roller. Help me make my decision. BTW, this kit will have dished forged pistons.

Dished pistons will give you about 8.5:1 compression. You can run any gas with that. If you go flat top, about 9.5:1 and you may need 91 octane. With the difference in lower compression, you will not lose too much HP, maybe 10? I am sure others will chime in. The cost of flat tops is probably the same as dished unless you already have them. That would give you 10 HP for free? :D I like COMP CAMS. Had one in my 32 Ford. Sounded nasty good! But I like big nasty cams. Sacrifice some vacuum though so be careful!

Carlos, I had the same decision to make when I was building my motor as it was to cam selection. I ended up with the bigger cam to make sure it sounded like a Corvette and not a Toyota..
The Thumper cams were not around but the XR282HR is what I ended up with a little bigger than it could have been... Now this vid was made with just initial so it hits a little harder than with vac added in. However it should give you a good idea of how a bigger cam should sound. The 282 is 230/236 510/520 and is a full roller. :thumbs:

Dave

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...walkaround.jpg

What's wrong with Toyotas?

http://i38.tinypic.com/28tku2c.jpg

I couldn't get the video to play. It just kept looping to start. I'll try again.

kensmith, the dokk says you are really nice guy, so no disrepspect-nor to you astrodokk. i ran the numbers on his CR for a 350. the heads he bought have 64 CC chambers, the numbers on a CR calculator came in at just below 10-1. (the same heads i bought off e-bay)

now the dokk is going to a 383 stroker, this changes the CR.

my engine is a 383 stroker, according to the specs-383 CI, 64 CC heads, an .039 head gasket, pistons .015 down in the hole-this works out to 10.71 on my engine. i will modify the cambers to bring it down to 10.5 or 10.3 (still thinking about that). it's like 2 or 4 CCs out of the combustion chamber.i recomended that dokk go with dished pistons to keep the compression on the safe side--but asstrodokk, this will kill your quinch. the dished piston i showed you will not have as much cuinch. the flat tops would be much better for quinch, go with fat tops and modify your chambers.

Just double click on it, it should open a new window to photobucket and start playing...

Dave

You are correct. My brain fart got in the way of my analogy. What I was trying to say is the stock 350 crate motor with dish pistons comes with 8.3:1 compression (76cc heads). You change the pistons to flat top, you will get approximately 9.5:1. Now you then change the heads to 64cc and get another +1 or 10.5:1. So with dish and 64cc heads, you should be close to 9.5:1. :thumbs: Also, shim or head gasket thickness, milling, etc all contribute to compression. I am running a 350 motor in my 65, LT1 heads, dome pistons, on 91 octane pump gas. No ping. :thumbs:

Update on cam
 

We've finally narrowed down the cam decision to the Comp Cams Thumper series 235/249 duration @ .521/.507 lift. The heads are good to .600 lift. We talked about this one the most because it's a retro fit hydraulic roller that maximizes that loby sound (like Dave's there), yet doesn't compromise on the vacuum, power, driveability, but increases torque and horsepower. The range is 2200-5900. It'd be nice to get the same performance out of a cam from 1800-6700! I haven't found any. Thanks to all for your participation in this build.

With dished pistons (8.5:1 compression), it's going to be a turd with a 235/249 @ .050" cam; that cam is pretty stout, and needs lots of compression to make it work. :rolleyes: