113's Or Vortec’s
 

So I’m just about ready to buy a new set of aluminum vortec heads, but I just stumbled across a site that said my 113’s are just as good on the flow bench. I though that good flow numbers and better ports where the vortec’s main selling point. So I’m a little confused.
The motor is a stock bottom end, and will go with a LT4 hotcam and a TPIS miniram. What do you guys thnk?

I don't know the flow numbers on the Vortex heads but comparing those numbers is the way to make your decision.

Remember that our #113s brought an extra 10chp over the 128s and a good porting job will add say another 30chp.
How much power will the Vortex add over the stock #113s using similar intake setup??

I would stick with the 113's and maybe upgrade them or go with a good set of aftermarket heads.

i remember an article here on the board
about a crazy powered L98 ...
that was done using Vortec heads.-

Are the Vortecs better than edelbrock heads ?

If the 113's flow the same as Vortec's what the need for a poll? This is a no brainer.

because im not confident in the accuracy of the data

A stock 350 bottom end @ 6000 rpm only needs ~230 cfm per cylinder.

The 113's in stock form get about 195cfm. Good porting will get you close - depending on the porter. TPiS claims 250+cfm after porting. I haven't seen real-world numbers to support.

I don't know the #'s for the Vortecs but hear they are good for mild-motors and efficiency. Any head you look at needs to hit these modest numbers.

If you want to change the short-block some day, that might change your considerations to a better head.

The heads that GM touts as the "Alum Vortec" heads are infact the GM "Fast Burn" heads.

The only thing they have in common with the cast iron Vortec's is the intake bolt pattern. They use LT4 valve train parts (hollow valves, springs, retainers). They are vastly superior OTB than the stock L98 113 castings. The 113's can be ported to perform as well as the fast burn heads, but once you spend the same amount of $$ on the fast burns... they are vastly superoir again.

Drawbacks to the Fast Burn heads include the intake bolt pattern, which require an expensive Vortec specific lower TPI intake. Then there is the fact that for the money there are numerous aftermarket heads that will out perform them and don't require anything special. Brodix KI180/200, Dart, World ect.
Will

Nope.

Stock 113's @ .600" - 199/167
Vortec L31 @ .600" - 222/152
Edelbrock Performer @ .600" - 244/183

Compare the .200 to .500 numbers for a street car. Not thrilled with the Performer heads.

Lots of Vortec heads out there going 240+ right out of the box. Avoid the 906 casting, the exhaust sucks no matter what you do.

As cuisinartvette stated its not about the max flow number, its the 100-600 lift figures, or low lift,mid, and high lift numbers. I would choose better heads.

awhile back i ported a set of 113s & managed 228@.500 on the intake and 196@.500 on the exhaust with mid lift moving up similar percentages. with a miniram and 503 cam it sent a 6spd car to 12.7@110mph. the chambers are dated on a 113 though. if you could get a vortech style MR the edelbrock etec 170cc head is a very good choice.

Very good! Any tips or pics on the 113?

I have David Vizard's book (ISBN 1-884089-34-8) on buildup of the SBC where he shows test data on the Vette #128 heads vs Vortec.

He also mentions that the exh sould flow ~80% of the int, so porting is often needed for best results.

i have pics but none of them are really going to show you where the work was done. the short turn radius in the intake is thick enough that you can smooth and reduce the turn angle slightly giving it a straighter shot at the runner. use cartrage sanding rolls in the bowls and short turn. bits could be used at first to match the intake to the manifold. a good valve that's necked down helps. manly race-flo in the stock sizes were what i used. a good 3 angle job is also needed. radius the metal holding the guide...this is a bizatch to do but the aluminum holding the guide is thick and somewhat intrusive. smooth the intake runners & do the above mentioned. if you haven't ported before do watch the standard abrasives video first. in the chamber your big goal is to get some of the overhang gone, like back by the spark plug where the valves sit. polish the metal up & use sanding rolls back there to open up the area. with a good valve job and 4-5hrs spent on each head you could achieve similar. i sold those heads awhile ago & replaced them with a pro action 180cc casting. heads suck out of the box assembled but they can perform if a machine shop specs the guides and you use a decent valve. the same car now goes 12.4@113 and may have more with a good tune. in my experience edelbrock is one of the few heads i would run right out of the box and not think twice about it. AFR's cnc'd spec to build stuff is also supose to be really good but most likely out of your price range based on the heads you are considering.

Based on your times, it sounds like you did a good job with your porting. Well done!

Since Edelbrock's aren't listed as polished (intake/exhaust/or bowls) and since their flow numbers would decrease somewhat after head-milling (to 58cc), what fancy's you about their out-of-the-box performance? Why didn't you pick them for a replacement?

I'm not challenging their value -- just asking for elaboration.

gp

113# about 199....Vortec about 240. Vortecs were designed along with the LT1 heads, and flow very well, especially in the low-lift areas. They need some machineing mods for higher performance use, but for milder cammed motors they're good, stock. There is that pesky Intake Manifold problem.
GREGGPENN...milling the heads doesn't generally have much effect on the flow.
:chevy

L98 113 casting (stock)
@.200 120/100
@.300 163/129
@.400 189/148
@.500 199/164
@.600 199/167

Edelbrock Performer
@.100 73/61
@.200 140/108
@.300 200/144
@.400 238/163
@.500 244/175
@.600 244/183

Vortec L31 Iron
@.100 58/43
@.200 114/88
@.300 173/125
@.400 216/143
@.500 225/149
@.600 222/152

BTW the AFR heads outflow all of these big time.

this is a very good question. what i've found with edelbrock heads after my own previously; and others that still have them; is the build quality. guides are spec'd right and the valve job lasts. springs are of good quality and they really do work to 6500rpm. my own aftermarket heads, the pro actions are half-ask assembled out of the box. these heads had something like 3 bad guides that would have caused oil burning when they were new. this isn't uncommon with aftermarket heads from what i have gathered keeping my ears open. price is the other thing i'm considering when i think about your goals. edelbrock is priced not too far above a complete rebuild of the 113. you also would avoid the porting time. the etec 170 is the head i would chose since the performer and performer rpm are dated designs. if i remember right even the vortec has a modernized combustion chamber. also, exhaust flow is MUCH easier to pick up when porting than intake. it's also faster to port.

355 Hp 405 Tq
 

ZZ4 v Fastburn 385 crate carb engines
Same block , same cam
ZZ4 w /113 heads ;355Hp / 405 Tq @10:1
385 w /Fastburn heads ;385Hp / 385 Tq. @ 9.6:1
Makes 435Hp w /Hotcam.
http://sallee-chevrolet.com/ChevySma...leeZZ430HP.cfm

The cast L31 Vortec heads #12558060; 170cc / 64cc Chambers / 1.94-1.5 are not the aluminum vortec heads (Fastburn ) that the OP mentioned

From another site,
"The Fast Burn heads feature a raised intake port that measures 210cc. Normally, we'd say that 210cc is kinda big for the street, but GMPP did their homework on this head and combined it with smaller than normal valves (2.00 intake, 1.55 exhaust) and an efficient 62cc chamber. The hollow-stem intake valves and sodium-filled exhaust valves are incorporated to reduce mass which allows for better valve control at higher rpm."

This is a key difference that you cannot duplicate by porting an older-style head. The vortec heart-shaped chamber produces more swirl and is less prone to detonation.

The book mentioned above lists their ported 113 as:

Intake
.200/129.7
.300/172.8
.400/201.6
.500/224.4
.550/222.3

Exhaust
.200/108.1
.300/138
.400/162
.500/175.5
.600/176.5

The book says up to 250 cfm can be had with further work. I seem to remember some flow charts of the very expensive TPIS 113 porting in the 250 range.

The Edelbrock head above looks very nice.

Thanks for the porting ideas. I'd like to tear into these stockers some time.

The only problem I see with Vortec heads is the intake bolt pattern. You would either have to redrill the heads to fit the stock pre-87 style pattern that all L98s use, or in fact redrill the intake to fit the bolt pattern of the Vortec heads. You also could have a slight problem with the spark plug interfering with the exhaust manifold because these heads don't have angled spark plug holes like the L98 has. If you got the aluminum fast burn heads and slapped them on a stock 350, the motor would be a lazy dog on torque because the velocity of the 215cc intake ports on the head would be much slower than they would be on the L98 head. If I remember correctly, the intake port size on L98 heads is a tiny 163cc and would only support at most 5500 rpms. Great on torque, but lacking much past 5500 rpms.

The main thing to remember about looking for a good set of heads is the numbers. Flow #s, valve size, spring size, runner volume, cc size(compression), and max lift. Shop around to find a good price on these if you can. AFR have the best flowing 180cc and 195cc heads on the market, but the price calls for it. Patriot have affordable 190cc heads on their site for $900 a pair, with flow numbers charted. Even Edelbrock and Holley have decent flow numbers. Check them out for your application, especially if you want a bigger cam!

this is a cool little thread & people are really being helpful with the advice. fire side chat this has become. just think over your goals, how fast you want to go will influence what head you buy. the fast burn is a better head than the 113. it is a large port but i haven't seen any problems on the dyno charts posted on the net running this head on a 350. even the GM crate has a nice torque curve. If i were debating this i would probably say.

1: edelbrock e-tec 170 or AFR 180 if you want to pony up a bit more
2. GM fast burn, not a bad choice & could be great with slight exhaust porting
3: 113 head, dated chamber and lack of flow mean lots of porting. unless you are given a pair for free the above options are much better.

don't forget the e-tec and fast burn require the vortech compatible manifold.

Look at Brodix 1K heads as well. They have straight plugs but flow #'s are good and price is great.

Trickflow also. There have been a few on here using them. I didn't keep track of the flow numbers though. Anyone have them?

They are very similar to the Edelbrock #s shown in this thread. I notice they post flow #s at the bottom of their descriptions as a link.

I choose TFS over the bigger port Brodix T1's because the low flow numbers were better and cheaper

The published numbers for 195's I have are

0.100" 51 58
0.200" 136 98
0.300" 191 136
0.400" 230 163
0.500" 253 177
0.600" 254 190

A guy over on the 3rd Gen site had some ported ;
got
266 @ 500
291 @ 600

Earlier in this thread, these #s were posted. And, they're the numbers I most commonly see.

L98 113 casting (stock)
@.200 120/100
@.300 163/129
@.400 189/148
@.500 199/164
@.600 199/167

On 3rd gen, I found these numbers which look like they were directly printed from a magazine/similar regarding an 89 Corvette. (In fact, it looks like it may be the source of vaders #s and the like -- because the wording is the same on intake combinations). Anyway, these #s make the 113 castings seem even worse....

L98 113 casting (stock) 1989 from 3rd gen:
@.100 61/39
@.200 117/100
@.300 157/137
@.400 176/156
@.500 184/162
@.550 187/164 port stall point

I have the gmpp fast burn heads on my minirammed 85. I can't say a whole lot about them except that they have done their job.

I have read that they come from gm at peak form and should not be ported any further, can't remember where I saw this though.

If I had the money for any set of heads, I would pick brodix or afr, no doubt.

What about CR? 90% of the aftermarket heads need to be machined to get the CR back up because of the large combustion chamber compared to the 113's--unless you change pistons for domed ones. How much of HP diff will a 8-10 CC increase in chambers make?

A thinner head gasket can help that. From what I remember around 10 HP for 1 compression point, also there can be a gain of gas mileage with increased compression.

:iagree:

But higher octane gas may be required, thus balancing out in the long run.

Vortec (Iron) are about on par with the L98 heads
Vortec (Al AKA fastburn) are a 50 hp bolt on increase over L98 heads
Both the vortec and fastburn require a special (0.25" like the LT4s) raised intake...
Suggest going with a AFR195 (standard CNC) and the miniram II for good flow.
Second choice ($$ limited) would be the ported L98 and the superram for good torque and fun.
Last choice would be the l98 heads and First TPI intake. At least it is sized for 350+ cubes.

The fastburns can pick up quite a few CFM by:
-using undercut valves
-bowl work
-and working the short radius
I gained about 30 CFM without changing the low lift numbers

following that, I got a multi-angle valve job and shaved the heads further to 54-55 cc's

If you dont mind how much did that set you back?
54- 55 cc how would this go with me 46k mile bottom end? would my .525 lift be an issue?

.525/.525 is quite a bit high for stock L98 springs. You could use LT4 springs but even then you are still maxing them out. I'd say if you want to run the LT4 hot cam, you can 1.5 rockers and that will put you at .493/.493 lift, which is perfect for LT4 springs. Even the CC503 cam would be good as the lift on it with 1.5 rockers is .503/.510.

Hoobly, Did you know the HotCam kit comes with 1.6 rockers -- putting it at the .525 lift with the LT4 springs? In principle, is that the lift where you think double springs should be used? (I've seen double springs starting by .540 lift).

If you do dynamic compression for that cam, I suspect you're losing 1/2 to one whole compression point (compared to stock) -- because of the longer duration. I would think it would be a good match....and no problem to the bottom end.

Course any motor you "pump up" could have more potential for blow-by. But, I don't think you should worry.

I know it hasn't been mentioned but check out the patriot heads, also i would stay away from TF heads. There was a norcal forum member who bought some tf heads that destroyed his motor, I don't remember the whole story but they were a$$holes about it and would not do anything about it. Just my .02

TF has always had an F'd up rep with build quality.

I agree, now about the patriot heads. I know some people on here are scared of them just because they are new to the game. But there have also been some people on here that took the risk and bought them and have been really happy with them. When i get home tonight i'll look in the archives and see what i can dig up about them. They seem to be similar to the edlebrock heads but thats all i can remember.

From what I dug up in archives, the 18-degree twisted wedge were more of an issue. And, I saw something indicating the were bought out (possibly by Summit Racing) and had improved.

If they were of better quality now, the 56cc chamber, flow, pricing and heart-shaped chamber make them a bang-for-the-buck candidate "on paper".

I think jsup has patriots.... And, he sounds happy!

Hmmm. I was always taught that maxing out valve springs can be very bad for your motor, especially when tolerances tighten up from a cold motor to one that is at operating temp. Also, I've always read that LT4 valve springs were good up to .525. I remember that replacement L98 heads from the ZZ4 crate motor came with the LT4 double spring set up, but then again, I could be wrong.

As far as losing half a point of the dynamic compression ratio, the gains of that cam would be offset by the power it gives up top AND some. I've seen dyno sheets where virtually no bottom end power was lost just from changing the cam itself. I've seen the LT4 hot cam on a Miniram stock headed L98 pull just over 310 rwhp before, which is about 370 hp to the crank. Not bad for just a cam swap. 310 rwhp is about a mid 12 in the quarter in a C4.

I can't disagree with anything you say, Hoobly... I was just pointing out what I found in my research.

The hotcam kit is designed to fit both the LT1 and the L98. It says so in the description. And, it says it comes with 1.6 rockers which put the lift at .520

On SDParts.com, the complete part list is also included. And, it comes with the standard $33 hotcam springs to which we refer. That's where I get my conclusion...

gp

I'm sure this has been talked about, but remember about the max lift on the vortecs unless you use the wide ID springs or have them seat machined. But after browsing the net and also thirdgen.org has a TON of stuff on the vortec heads, but these are proven designs that can run 400twq no problem. They are really popular with the hot rod crowd because of their low price and high potential. If your on a budget, or would just like to spend your money on other parts then the vortecs are for you; no doubt about it. But if you have money to spend then buy the edelbrocks or afrs, stay away from Trick Flow just because of their customer service rep. If your on a budget and really want decent aluminum heads check out the patriot heads, they can be had for 800-900 a set assembled. I'm not sure of their flow #s but that may be worth checking out. I believe the patriot heads use the regular bolt pattern, so what you save buying the vortecs you end up paying out for the $400 SDPARTS vortec base manifold. So all in all you end up paying 1k anyway.

Talked to Merle @ EM yesterday. Several topics. At one point, he recommended that I purchase TFS heads. Says he has em on his '85 and they're great. Says there rep came from a bad batch of springs (or similar) around 2005. Said not to worry.

Hey well i am in no way discounting his excuse, but these heads were for an ls1 and installed last year i believe or early this year? Not too sure, but thats a long time ago and this story was recent

before this post winds up in a political chat about saudi arabia, does anyone know what the OP did? :D we all got a little side tracked.

What... We argued -- like we always do -- in an effort to prove we don't know either! :rofl:

If it were me i would get the vortec heads, a mild cam, and a HSR

On fleabay, fastburns (alum vortecs) go for more than AFR's. :willy:

Is there better pricing?

:rofl:

i would run the cast iron vortecs jmho...i just sold a set of cast iron ones a few months back because i got lazy and didn't want to do the swap