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BrianCunningham 10-30-2008 07:25 PM

Car & Driver on the GM/Chrysler merger
 

John Shiels 10-31-2008 10:02 AM

If GM went under this country will lose 2 million jobs with the ripple effect. I doubt gov will or can let that happen. I read every day about this and I have not seen any where say GM is losing 2 billion per month only 1 billion. They need to get to 2010 when the new labor agreements start saving them tons of money and their labor cost will be equal with the competition. They can now make a car with the same numnber of man hr. within a 2% margin I think it was.

Kepp buying foreign till we have nothing here to make

JustinStrife 11-01-2008 07:17 PM

Tell GM to make vehicles other than the Corvette that I can like... :leaving:

John Shiels 11-01-2008 08:26 PM


Originally Posted by JustinStrife (Post 1567691592)
Tell GM to make vehicles other than the Corvette that I can like... :leaving:

don't like a CTS-V 556 hp?

JustinStrife 11-01-2008 08:54 PM

Not particularly.

The performance sure, the rest of the car, no.

Bill Dearborn 11-01-2008 10:19 PM


Originally Posted by JustinStrife (Post 1567691592)
Tell GM to make vehicles other than the Corvette that I can like... :leaving:

They make a lot of them you just have to look and stop believing the ricers are better when they aren't. I just bought an 08 LTZ with the 4 cylinder and a 6 speed auto tranny. Great car runs and looks good plus gets 32mpg on the road.

Bill

JustinStrife 11-01-2008 10:22 PM


Originally Posted by Bill Dearborn (Post 1567693659)
They make a lot of them you just have to look and stop believing the ricers are better when they aren't. I just bought an 08 LTZ with the 4 cylinder and a 6 speed auto tranny. Great car runs and looks good plus gets 32mpg on the road.

Bill

I grew up on Chevys. I have a 96 Z71 and 2 C5's. My old man's owned 15 corvettes not to mention many different full-size trucks(88 GMC has almost 200k miles on the original drivetrain).

After about 06', they stopped making anything outside of the corvette that's even remotely interesting to me.

I take it back, the G8 isn't too bad, if it's the 6spd version.

I own two japanese cars(one is getting sold, and the other is going to get an LS3/7 transplant). My GM to Import ratio is still in favor of American made. Care to keep going on about the ricer comments without knowing anything about me?

xsiveone 11-01-2008 10:32 PM

These companies need to merge with a company that's not in trouble. How are two struggling companies going to help each other?

John Shiels 11-02-2008 01:23 AM


Originally Posted by xsiveone (Post 1567693831)
These companies need to merge with a company that's not in trouble. How are two struggling companies going to help each other?

less competition

bigger market share

shed older plants

over 50% of pickup market

lwwer overhead

John Shiels 11-02-2008 01:25 AM


Originally Posted by Bill Dearborn (Post 1567693659)
They make a lot of them you just have to look and stop believing the ricers are better when they aren't. I just bought an 08 LTZ with the 4 cylinder and a 6 speed auto tranny. Great car runs and looks good plus gets 32mpg on the road.

Bill

Bill some people have Importitice as the new Chevy commercial shows.:willy:

TBIRD57 11-02-2008 01:44 AM

agree
 

Originally Posted by John Shiels (Post 1567675384)
If GM went under this country will lose 2 million jobs with the ripple effect. I doubt gov will or can let that happen. I read every day about this and I have not seen any where say GM is losing 2 billion per month only 1 billion. They need to get to 2010 when the new labor agreements start saving them tons of money and their labor cost will be equal with the competition. They can now make a car with the same numnber of man hr. within a 2% margin I think it was.

Kepp buying foreign till we have nothing here to make

I just can't see GM taking over CHRYSLER. I would be tempted to start buying GM stock because I too believe that GM really is a company that can not fail.
You are right to a point about buying foreign. Honda and Toyota
really do make very very good cars.

heavychevy 11-02-2008 06:17 AM

It's been almost 4 years now and GM still hasnt gotten the C6 right. If it's not one thing, it's another. I hope the CTS-V fares better, and they finally makethe corvette as good as it can be.


I also hope our goverment HELPS the carmakers succeed instead of repeatedly bailing them out over and over again. They have to help themselves too, but they dont have a chance the way things are now. We might as well just put the tax dollars in the employees pockets and find them something to do that actually MAKES the country money. Not hemorrhages it away billions at a time.

John Shiels 11-02-2008 09:19 AM


Originally Posted by heavychevy (Post 1567695907)
It's been almost 4 years now and GM still hasnt gotten the C6 right. If it's not one thing, it's another. I hope the CTS-V fares better, and they finally makethe corvette as good as it can be.


I also hope our goverment HELPS the carmakers succeed instead of repeatedly bailing them out over and over again. They have to help themselves too, but they dont have a chance the way things are now. We might as well just put the tax dollars in the employees pockets and find them something to do that actually MAKES the country money. Not hemorrhages it away billions at a time.

first off they need a level playing field to compete. Let's treat other countries car makers like they treat ours in their country and see what happens.

TBIRD57 11-02-2008 10:16 AM

i don't
 

Originally Posted by John Shiels (Post 1567696982)
first off they need a level playing field to compete. Let's treat other countries car makers like they treat ours in their country and see what happens.

think a majority of the folks realize that vast disparity. Many folks don't realize that the population of these various countries are totally loyal only to their home grown auto company products no matter what.

John Shiels 11-02-2008 10:54 AM


Originally Posted by TBIRD57 (Post 1567697595)
think a majority of the folks realize that vast disparity. Many folks don't realize that the population of these various countries are totally loyal only to their home grown auto company products no matter what.

it is even socially unacceptable to have a foreign car in most countries that produce them.





Saturday, November 1, 2008
Chrysler-Nissan talks halt
No more discussions scheduled after Cerberus acknowledges preference for GM deal, sources say.
Christine Tierney and David Shepardson / The Detroit News
Talks between the Renault-Nissan alliance and Cerberus Capital Management LP have stopped as both sides acknowledged Cerberus's preference to conclude a deal for Chrysler LLC with General Motors Corp., according to sources familiar with the situation.

No more talks between Cerberus and Renault-Nissan negotiators have been scheduled, the sources said Friday, although the parties have not ruled out discussions in the future.

Cerberus and Nissan declined to comment. But sources close to Cerberus have said the private-equity firm favors a GM-Chrysler deal, viewing it as financially more advantageous and also better for the U.S. auto industry.


GM wants to acquire Chrysler if the financing can be arranged, whereas Renault-Nissan had proposed to take a stake of around 20 percent. However, Cerberus and Renault-Nissan negotiators had not agreed on a valuation for Chrysler, which is losing money.

Carlos Ghosn, CEO of Renault SA and Nissan Motor Co., has said that carmakers are unlikely to go for deals requiring cash in the current economic environment.

GM officials, meanwhile, are in talks with several government agencies over possible aid. Two company officials said the automaker was still in talks with Treasury officials about a broad range of issues. They are talking to the U.S. Energy Department, too, about obtaining some of the $25 billion in low-cost loans already authorized for the auto industry.

A GM official said the main hurdle to a deal with Cerberus is securing the financing -- possibly government loan guarantees or $5 billion in loans from the Energy Department.

Sources close to the talks said no deal was imminent, but the two sides were making progress.

GM is expected to report substantial third-quarter losses as early as next week. The automaker lost $18. billion in the first half of the year as auto sales plunged.

In this environment, Japan's automakers also are struggling. On Friday, Nissan slashed its profit forecast for the year after reporting a 39 percent drop in income for the July-September quarter to $693 million.

"The global financial and economic crisis has had a profound effect on every area of our industry, with the grip on credit and declining consumer confidence being the most damaging factors," Ghosn said. He cut his full-year net profit target by 40.5 percent, saying he saw no relief ahead.

Nissan's vehicle sales rose 2.7 percent to 966,000 cars and trucks worldwide in the July-September quarter, the second quarter of the Japanese fiscal year. But the yen's strength, high raw material costs, a shift in demand to smaller and less lucrative vehicles, and provisions related to residual risk for leased vehicles reduced its earnings.

Like its Japanese rivals, Honda Motor Co. and Toyota Motor Corp., Nissan has been hurt by the slump in U.S. sales. But the Japanese are faring better than their American competitors. So far this year, Nissan's U.S. sales are down 3.4 percent in a market that has contracted by 13 percent.

On Friday, Nissan said it would add a Versa subcompact with a 1.6-liter engine starting at $9,990 -- the lowest sticker price of any new car sold in the United States. It also is offering zero percent financing on five Nissan models, including the popular Sentra and Altima cars.

You can reach Christine Tierney at (313) 222-1463 or ctierney@detnews.com.

heavychevy 11-02-2008 02:08 PM


Originally Posted by John Shiels (Post 1567696982)
first off they need a level playing field to compete. Let's treat other countries car makers like they treat ours in their country and see what happens.


That's what I meant by the government helping them.


Meaning helping them help themselves. And being proactive instead of reactive.

rustyguns 11-02-2008 10:23 PM


Originally Posted by John Shiels (Post 1567696982)
first off they need a level playing field to compete. Let's treat other countries car makers like they treat ours in their country and see what happens.

:iagree: the competition would be non-existent! :flag:

John Shiels 11-03-2008 07:52 AM


Originally Posted by heavychevy (Post 1567700005)
That's what I meant by the government helping them.


Meaning helping them help themselves. And being proactive instead of reactive.

to late for that as the policies of all the past parties in power buried them for 50 years,

John Shiels 11-03-2008 11:26 AM


Monday, November 3, 2008
Analysts: Big 3 woes imperil U.S. economy
Alisa Priddle / The Detroit News
Auto manufacturers and related businesses employ as many as 3.1 million workers across the United States, a broad network of jobs that loom large for federal officials considering taking steps to bolster domestic carmakers whose plummeting sales have created a cash crisis that threatens the very concept of the Big Three.

Every direct job at an automaker in the United States creates five more jobs, said Sean McAlinden, chief economist and vice president for research for the Center for Automotive Research in Ann Arbor. Two of the five are related to suppliers or dealers; the other three are spinoff jobs at businesses where auto industry workers spend their paychecks.

The next closest industry to autos is high-tech, where each job creates a total of four, including spinoffs, he said. By contrast, one Wall Street position creates a total of about 2.5 jobs, yet Congress expedited aid to the financial services sector this year.

Advertisement
"The cost benefit to the economy (of helping automakers) is better than any individual buyout offered on Wall Street," McAlinden said.

No other industry in America has as broad and significant an impact -- even with the restructuring by Detroit's Big Three automakers in recent years that has closed factories and cost tens of thousands of jobs, McAlinden said.

That's why Michigan politicians, union leaders, auto executives and governors from five other states are lobbying for federal aid for the industry, saying the help is necessary to prevent huge job losses from a bankruptcy or collapse of one or more of Detroit's automakers.

Officials lobbying for aid
They're lobbying to get a piece of the U.S. Treasury Department's $700 billion fund to help salvage the economy, or other aid, as well as accelerate and possibly expand the $25 billion loan program approved to help automakers modernize their factories to build more fuel-efficient models.

Declining auto sales have contributed to the nation's economic downturn, but that hasn't diminished the industry's importance, said Charles Chesbrough, senior economist for CSM Worldwide in Northville, an automotive market research firm.

"We won't see a turnaround in the economy as a whole," he said, "until we see improvement in the auto industry."

The importance of the auto sector will be underscored this week when the Center for Automotive Research plans to release a new analysis of the impact on the economy if operations cease at any of the Big Three. McAlinden said the resulting drop in tax income and other losses over three years would far exceed the amount being sought in government aid. When the jobs tied to everything from buying a car to washing it and refining the gas that fuels it are added to the total, more than 14 million U.S. workers -- about 1 in 10 -- can draw a line from their job back to an auto factory or office worker, according to CAR.
355K workers at carmakers
In a letter to Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson and Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke, Gov. Jennifer Granholm and five other governors said automakers in the United States directly employ about 355,000 workers.

The nation has 783,100 people who make parts for automakers, either for installation at the factory or for sale in the aftermarket, which includes accessories and repair parts, said Debbie Maranger Menk, project manager for CAR. They work in all 50 states, including nine in Alaska and 145,000 in Michigan, she said.

Each of those supplier jobs has its own substantial trickle-down effect. Another 1.97 million workers produce the steel, rubber and other materials needed to make the parts, or provide engineering, distribution and other support services -- bringing the total to 2.76 million employees with jobs tied to suppliers. The spinoff effect spills into stores and restaurants relying on the income of those workers.

"There are 1.7 million people who owe their jobs to the fact the 2.7 million have jobs," Menk said, equaling 4.4 million just on the supplier side. Factoring in some overlap in the retail spinoff from each supplier and automaker job, she estimates total employment in the auto industry at a minimum of 5 million jobs.
She describes CAR's figures, which are based on a study from earlier this year that used 2006 data, the most recent available, as conservative. They are significantly lower than figures used by East Lansing-based Anderson Economic Group. Senior consultant Ilhan Geckil said Anderson estimated the number of jobs provided by automakers, suppliers, dealers and aftermarket companies, and the resulting spinoff jobs amounted to 8.7 million as of 2006.

Big 3's clout slips
Admittedly, the auto sector has lost some clout. Sales are down 13 percent so far this year, following year-end declines of 3.6 percent in 2006 and 2.9 percent in 2007.

After years of contributing about 5 percent of the country's gross domestic product, or GDP, the figure dropped to 2.9 percent at the end of 2007 and is trending around 2.5 percent now of the $14.5 trillion total, said Dana Johnson, chief economist for Comerica Bank in Dallas. Johnson paints a dramatically different picture of the value of the auto industry nationwide, saying the sector accounts for less than 1 percent of jobs and that the adage of "what's good for GM is good for the country," is no longer the case.

It is good for Michigan and select states, he said, but not the U.S. as a whole.

Autos are a key sector within manufacturing, but Johnson said manufacturing accounts for about 10 percent of U.S. jobs compared with 30 percent decades ago.

"I don't believe the auto sector deserves special consideration," Johnson said. Bailing out financial institutions was necessary to prevent "terrible contagion effects that could collapse the economy," Johnson said. "That should be the standard. To argue national prosperity depends on them (automakers) operating, to me, is much more of a stretch."

'Black eye on the economy'
It's not to those who have seen the Big Three eliminate more than 100,000 jobs in the past three years.
Allowing an automaker to go under would wipe out portions of the supply chain, dragging down healthy foreign automakers, as well, that would have to scramble to find other suppliers to provide their parts. Automakers also buy $15 billion a year in advertising, not counting the huge amount dealers spend.

Automakers spend more on research and development than any other industry except the government, about $18.5 billion a year, McAlinden said, with 85 percent of that done in Michigan.

Both presidential candidates have energy policies and tax incentives for fuel-saving research that cannot be achieved without a healthy and robust auto industry, CSM's Chesbrough said. "The auto sector is key to where the country needs to go in the future to reduce oil dependence," he said.

If GM or Chrysler were to go under, "it would be one more black eye on the economy" for the nation.

Detroit News Staff Writer Robert Snell contributed to this report.

AND the politicians continue to give away this industry with totally unfair competition.:U

quick04Z06 11-03-2008 01:54 PM


Originally Posted by JustinStrife (Post 1567691592)
Tell GM to make vehicles other than the Corvette that I can like... :leaving:

Malibu--great car; looks slick, good mileage, quick
Cobalt SS--very quick, good mileage. Check out Car and Drivers' "Track Meat" issue this year. This car destroyed some much fancier nameplates.
Corvette--of course
Pontiac G8 V8-quick, great value, looks great in dark colors
Solstice/Sky--great looks, great handling
CTS DI V6 and CTS-V--fassssst and beautiful, esp the new interior
XLR and XLR-V--beautiful, slick folding hardtop. V is very quick
STS--comfortable, nice-looking full size sedan
Silverado and GMC equiv--best pickups made, hands down
Yukon and Escalade hybrid--have no real competition
Traverse--great looking, innovative new crossover vehicle; good mileage

There are lots of good GM products; one just has to decide whether one will support the home folks or not. Are we a nation, or a group of individual consumers with no national loyalties?

South Koreans will not touch American (or Canadian) cars, but we buy tons of theirs. Check it out. Why do we buy their stuff? Because we're STOOOPID.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...tory/National/


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