England Green 440 Results
 

Well I got my 2004 Z06 back from England Green (Gulf Coast Performance) and I am very happy with the results.

The specs are as follows:

Ls7 Block
Callies Compstar 4.1 Crank
Callies 6.125 Rods
Wiesco Pistons
ARP hardware
TFS 235 Heads
10% Underdrive Pulley
Melling Oil Pump
CTSV Lifters
Yella Terra Rockers
LS2 Pan
EG Chaos Cam
LG 1 3/4 Headers
Ti Exhaust
Catch Can
60 lbs Injectors
Boost-A-Pump
Racetronics Hotwire

The car cranked out 546rwhp and 517 rwtq SAE corrected on a very hot day.

The car is deceptively fast and not all too loud at idle. I know I am sacrificing about 30 rwhp because of the Tis, and maybe some more because of the 13/4 headers, but I think I’m going to leave it the way it is for now.

Took it to the dragstrip and ran an 11.8 at 127.31 with a 2.016 60 ft. Given that I only am on 555rIIs, I had to back out of second during that pass. My other 3 passes were abortions, since I could not get the car to hook and the Textralia was locking me out of 4th.

(I ran an 11.9 at 121 with 434/402 rwhp/rwtq on the same tires, which also gave me traction problems back then).

Thank you Jason and Stephen for all your hard work on this build and customer support!!!!!!!


(Jason or Stephen, please post up some pix/dyno sheet)

Congrats. It's good to hear you have it back and are enjoying it.

I hate to be that guy but I would be very disappointed with those results from a 440CI motor with a premium set of heads. I've seen multiple 416ci motors with those heads make 550+ with high 240's to low 250's duration comp cams. Not sure what that silly "chaos" cam is but those numbers aren't that impressive especially from a 440 TFS headed car.

I somewhat agree....I would think it would produce more power, but those street headers are holding some power back. I seriously doubt that the Ti exhaust is costing you 30rwhp. The Ti flows very well so I would look for the power loss somewhere else.

I bet its a great car nonetheless :thumbs: Jason is a great guy :cheers::cheers:

Dang guys...do we know they tried to make as much rwhp as possible ?

Some people...(like me) ask for a cam for the street because 98% of the time...that is where my driving takes place. I optioned out of a 2nd cam recommened because I didn't want too radical. It cost me some horse power and torque but that is what I ask for. Still running mid 10's with a street cam. Good enough for me. Now if I ran a 10.1, I wouldn't be typing this...I would be changing my cam...lol. :lol::lol:

I have a 383 with 480 rwhp...and I hear the same thing. What happened.... "Tony Mammo got over 525 rwhp from his"....??

Pitt

Hey Pitt,

I wasnt trying to be negative. It is a good build, but the point I was trying to make is that hte Ti's flow pretty good so I wouldnt change them for the added power, only change them if your wanting a different sound :thumbs:

yeah..I agree Chris....but sometimes I wonder about them. One person will say they dyno'd 15-20 better hp without them..then when mine was tested it made 1 hp less with open headers. Are the dyno's actually that accurate ? Heck..I don't know. I just leave mine on now...hope it isn't killing my quarter mile any.

Sorry Fallon, didn't mean to hijack the thread but the TI's are related to your setup. And by the way...that trap speed is good for at least a 10.8 so keep at it Bro !! Work on that sixty foot.
Pitt

What does something like that cost?

Hm thats interesting info pitt...:thumbs:

I agree though, his trap speed tells the truth :D

Are you sure. I thought they did on big cube motors. Let me do some checking, but I think they do.

OK the thread below shows no exhaust vs. Ti

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c5-g...r-600rwhp.html

Thanks!

Was that with the cats still on the car ? What about straight thru TI's and no Cats ?

Pitt

The numbers I gave are w/out cats. Thereafter, we bolted up high flow cats for street use since I do not want to deal with the smell. (So arguably my street nos. are lower).

well...you have the proof on yours..no doubt. Nice numbers & setup !

Pitt

Sorry bro but I have to agree with Blu. I would be seriously upset with those numbers. You spent the money on the best parts and have a combo that should go 600/550rw. Now if the cam is in the 230 range then I wouldn't be that upset. The 1 3/4" LG's and the stock Ti are the biggest culprits. Just as a comparison, my 416 with the same heads, but 1 7/8" kooks through the full cat back made 573/530rw with a 247/254 cam. The tq us what seems way off to me. Does the motor have under 10:1 compression? What intake are you running?

Ti's vs open cutouts made 12RWHP (DynoJet 248) difference on my car (403CI). I imagine the difference would be less comparing the Ti's to another straight through cat-back like GHL's.

OK numbers but not stellar based on the heads and CI.

Wow!:eek:

Just my point in my first response Pray, we don't know what is in it.
And I agree, if it is all it can be... then yes the numbers might be low.

Pitt

Compression is 11.8:1 SCR. I have no idea about DCR.

I don't really know the cam specs, but it is much bigger than 230.

The intake manifold is the fast 92 through a 90 mm tb.

I am using a vararam intake.

Well.....on the positive side..you are still driving a ten second car. You spent all that money..Get some tires & Get some traction !

I wish I had your rwhp now, while good air is here !

Pitt

Also-I had the 1 and 3/4 on the car before the swap--so it was my choice to leave them in for now.

How much power do you think I'm leaving on the table by not setpping up to 1 and 7/8?

What say Pray..you have the big cubes now ?? I have no clue.

I thought the smaller headers give you more torque on the bottom end and kill your top end ?

Just about the same compression as mine, same complete intake track. I would say your power is being robbed by the exhaust. I would also look into a cam swap. You have a great combo. It just needs to be refined. Some break in miles may help as well. The DCR is easy to figure once you know the cam specs. Good luck with it. I plan on doing a 440-454 in the future so I am very interested in any of your results.

I don't see any down side to larger headers. Especially going to 1 7/8" from 1 3/4". I don't think I have found any results where some one lost when going up. Even alot of the fastest 346's run larger headers. I do think most of the tq is in the length of the header, not the diameter. I am not a fan of Kooks, even though I run them, because of their short length. But you can't argue with the results. A large NA motor needs to breath in and out. It is much more criticle for us NA guys than FI guys. FI guys are usually the ones in the 550+ range so they don't explore the intake and exhaust side of things. They just pill up or pulley down. There are not to many large cube guys in the high 500 range to do much experimenting either. But if you talk to Ron at Vengeance he will tell you larger exhaust all the way back or cut out every time.

Glad ya' like it Rich! Folks, these numbers are not bad at all. Keep in mind that this is stock Ti exhaust and 1 3/4" headers which the car came in with. The only other package I've seen out there is the Vengeance package and it is making the same power for the most part.

Everyone these days is so hung up on numbers it is ridiculous. When we design a package we design it so that the customer can drive it on the street and have fun driving it, power all over the place, and not glory numbers. Sure, we could put a different lobe cam in and add 20 hp and take away the drivability for the customer.:rolleyes:

This car makes a lot of power all over the place, not just the top end. It is one of the more fun cars I've driven and I am seriously considering dumping my turbos for a setup like this on my own car. I'd put this car against a lot of supercharger cars any time. This car is running 130 mph trap speeds with no traction.

We do no tricks on the dyno so these are real world numbers. We don't take off breaks, ice the intake, take off catbacks, add octane booster for the dyno run etc., etc., etc. Only the way you drive it.

Drivability is very important along with customer satisfaction. There is no doubt about that. I think we all agree that the exhaust is killing this combo. I don't think people are hung up on numbers. We just compare results from other motors and form opinions. I think it is all in trying to help the end user get the most out of his/her combo. I know I have had my combos revised by board users. Some work and some don't. But all opinions are valuable.

My car is my daily driver with less cubes and traps 136 all day long. I drive the car off the street right on to the dyno and start making pulls. I can't stand cars adjusted for the dyno. Kudos to your shop for doing the same thing. So more power can be made with out loosing any drivability. Can you guys get a graph up? I would like to compare them.

I love cubes over FI. Had them both. I couldn't get traction yesterday under 85 so NA is working for me. You all built a great combo. We were just giving options for the OP to maxamize his combo. I am sure we are not telling you any thing you don't already know. But those options may have not been discussed with the OP.

Have a good one.

Brett

Sure the exhaust and smaller headers are choking it a little but not that much, maybe 10-15rwhp MAX!

Well the well educated members aren't hung up on numbers. We know it doesn't take 238/242 cams to make 410-420rwhp on the stock bottom end. :)
So what is this designed package, I'd love to see the profile of this "chaos" cam. I've seen your results from that "whiplash" cam and I know its a huge cam for an NA 346 but you guys install them all the time. Please don't try and down play this "chaos" cam as being some small stick. I guarantee this chaos cam is in the high 240's to low 250's duration which is what these 416 owners are running making 560-570 to the wheels with no tricks. This is a 440 here...

Lets see the graph then, all I have read was 127 traps with limited traction. A 440 with these parts should go mid-high 130's easily with decent traction.

Lastly please don't take offense to this and consider others uneducated or lump us in the "peak" HP numbers crowd. Some of us have or had have setups like these with real world results and numbers as you call them which is why we are questioning the low numbers from a larger stroker with premium heads.

Congrats to the OP!! You have a nice combo on your hands. If YOU are happy that is ALL that matters :)

That being said. I would like to chime in with some information we have gathered while building quite a few of these 440 LS7 over the past two years. Most importantly, YES, your 1 3/4 headers are a restriction. You are giving up roughly 15 to 20rwhp with virtually no loss in bottom end torque. Secondly, the Ti Catback is a GREAT exhaust, but even it cant keep up with the air a 440 cubic inch engine moves.

On one of our typical 440 strokers we would make 600/550 LEGIT to the tires thru 1 7/8 longtubes/3" X pipe/DMH Dual Electric Cutouts... Close the cutouts and thru the Ti exhaust we see 580s/540s... Our customers tell us they can really tell the difference going down the road with the cutouts open Vs closed...

FWIW, we have dyno tested alot of our combos including our 440s on other dyno AND drag strips. Our most recent 440 trapped 137mph spinning thru 3rd gear.

Again, congrats on your combo. If nothing else you know you have room to grow when the time comes!!!!!

I was wondering when you would chime in. Knowlege from the best in the business. You def have the most experience with large cubes on the board. I am glad our thought patterns are in line. I think you said it best. There is alot of room to grow with this combo. I wish I could have gone to the track yesterday. I couldn't get traction at any speed under 85 on the street. I am sure with the drag pack bolted up it would have gone 9's@140. The weather was insane.

Congrats guys. Sounds like a great package and a well put together one. The numbers are really not that far off considering how small that cam is. I am impressed :thumbs: I was told the Chaos cam was like 228-234 range.. Those are some nice numbers.. Now go stick in a cam in the high 230's at least and you should see another 25 rwhp.. :thumbs:

:lol:

Here is the dyno sheet:

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c9...6/image002.jpg

Dumb ?. BAsed on my dyno sheet, what RPM should I be shifting at? When I ran the 127.3 mph I was shifting at 6,400. Maybe that was too high? MAybe I should be shifting at 6k?

250 past your peak is one way..which looks like to are right on it.

What happened to this post?

Not sure Blu, but here is my response since you are apparently looking for one.

Glad to see your concerns Andre but since you brought them up I figured I have a little explaining to do for other potential viewers.

With regards to the price, you bet, actually this price is kinda cheap compared to the package it is a prototype for. Add up all the parts and you do the math. Cheap, fast, or reliable, pick two. The price is what it is. If you want cheaper, buy one of those budget blocks. We usually won't even install those if the customer remotely looks like a racer.

Now, as far as the time frame (a very short version), yes the car was here for quite a while. It in fact was flat bedded here and the decision for the build was made a couple of weeks after the car arrived. We placed the order for the motor and any reputable engine builder will take 4-6 weeks minimum. If I am not mistaken, we received Rich's engine closer to 7 or 8 weeks later. Work was done and we put the car on the dyno.

On the third pull one of the rocker arm bolts broke which we thought was a head gasket or worse since there appeared to be blow by. Just to be a nice guy and provide the extra and above customer service we always do (this is not a cheap build), I pulled the motor again and sent it back to the builder to completely disassemble the motor on my dime thus causing more of a delay.

As far as the oiling, it could be tune related not to mention Rich ain't skeered when it comes to driving the car, particularly with 170 mph pulls at any given time. :willy: He beats it like a drum, like you are supposed to.:lol: The reason that Rich and I discussed can be due to doing a run and immediately putting it into neutral. The car will want to hunt for idle a little and if it goes down to 500 rpm, what do you think the oil pressure does? Go down. Or when he first noticed it, he was at the track and just did a quarter mile run and was stepping on the brakes to make it to the turn off. Also, with the light weight 10/30 oil the builder said to use there is lots of sloshing around. We have told Rich to change to a straight 50 weight like road racers use and see if that solves the problem. Just to clarify, the car DOES NOT have low oil pressure like your statement implies, you have to physically make the car do it. It does having a ported Melling pump.

As far as the timing issue, not sure what to tell you on that one. Every car is different. What I can show you is all of my logs from street and dyno tuning with absolutely 0 knock. Everyone has there own driving style. When Rich mentioned knock we immediately had him come back in and adjusted it. Not sure if it was climate change or what but it should be fixed now. I can also tell you that there is no way in hell we will tune the car to 170 mph on the street so that's gonna be what its gonna be. We did pull the car to that on the dyno though.:thumbs:

Jason

The explination of the oil pressure issue makes perfect sense. Mine does that. I went from the 20/50 VR1 to 10/30 Royal purple and my oil pressure at idle went down significantly. Driving around it is some what lower but still holds 50psi. I have never looked at the oil pressure when I am slowing down from 140 at the track. I can see it going down from there as well.

If you tuned the car on the dyno and street with no knock then it would seem to me that it would hold just fine when the customer got home. Possibly he got some bad gas or some part of the motor is going. The other possibility is that the knock is false. There are alot of things that will cause false knock on the street.

Cajundude. In your opinion, what is the difference between a $4,000 short block and a $6,000 short block using the same parts. It didn't seem that any of the hard parts in this build were exotic or any thing different than you get from SDPC or TSP if you ask for it. All you are setting is ring end gap and checking ALL of your clearance given the same machines were used for the block work. Do you just think that the budget manufactures are not taking to time to check and make sure all the clearances are correct?

I asked the poster to remove his post by PM since EG is working with me to take care of the oil issue. (Actually, EG was going to recify the issue before I even posted my initial results)

To be more specific the oil issue seems to happen when you come off the throttle at high RPMs and put the car in nuetral or disengage the clutch.

When I made my 127.3 mph pass, I got on the brakes hard to hit an early return road. The "low oil pressure" warning displayed in the DIC and the red check guages light went on as I was braking. I was able to repeat the condition on the street.

Initially, I suspected that oil was moving away from the pick-up tube under hard braking, causing oil starvation. But the oil level in the motor was fine leading me to believe a baffle was missing or the pick-up tube had a crack in it.

However, it seems like the motor is sputterring very badly off hard throttle, which is causing a decrease in rpms, and thus, a decrease in oil pressure. BAsically, the car is almost stalling out after a hard run and the tach is bouncing between 200 rpm and 700 rpm or so. I think this is causing a decrease in oil pressure significant to trigger the light.

I will leave the car eith EG very soon to check the situation out in more detail and so that the bouncing idle may be tuned out.

As for timing, yes HP Tuners showed no knock at 27 degrees. However, the car was audibly knocking and we pulled timing out to 23 degrees on the top end. The audible knock is now gone.

Nice combo, why does the power fall off so sharply at 6,500-up

Nice, another thread about dyno numbers and what it should put out versus what it does put out. IF the guy likes his car, then he likes his car.

You want to talk dyno numbers? I have a shop car 98 vette, 6 speed with a little small motor, makes 440-460hp, and goes low 11's all motor.

ITS DRIVER!!

Go enjoy your car, and good numbers BTW. :)

R

You are correct that dyno numbers are not every thing. But they are a pretty good measure of the engines out put. My small cam only Z06 with 405rw went consistant low 11's@123+ on the stock clutch and a DR. Does that make you a bad driver since you are using 440-460rw to run the same times? No, the combos are just different. Should I doubt you car is making those numbers? No, I would say your dyno numbers are high for your times. I think the OPs times are some what inline with his MPH. If any thing they are high for his mph. We just want his engine to realize it's full potential for the absurd amount of money he spent on this combo. If I spent 20+K on my motor it better make 1,000rw and run like stock. Not underachieve and have issues.

Well said!

BTW Im planning to go to Rockingham this Saturday, should be the weather for me to crack those 10's finally (20 degrees cooler and 50% less humidity from my 7.0@100 runs). Oh and with my little stock bottom end 440rwhp monster. :o

1000rwhp, run like stock, and for $20k?

Sign me up because I would love to see that combo.

Seriously, this is one of the funniest things I've seen in a long time.:cheers:

Way to pick apart his single comment and avoid all the other issues at hand.
If I spent 20k on a motor as well it better be able to withstand 1000rwhp as well, this 20k motor can even run with stock bottom end cars or be tuned to run worth a crap. And don't say its because of the mild setup because I would be willing to bet this super top secret comp lobe cam is bigger than prays "cheap" 416 with the same heads and smaller cam that makes 570+rwhp and goes low 10's @ 137.

Since this "whiplash cam" that you design for stock bottom ends thats 240's duration on both sides, I can't imagine what this "chaos cam" is.

PS: Ever think it might not hold timing because the compression is too high? :bigears

Sorry to come across as an a$$ but there are a lot of issues here with this setup, tune, and results being passed like its no big deal.

You can't make everyone happy. If I posted my graph to do a direct comparison of 440 dynos people would be screaming how useless it was since they were dynoed in different states under different conditions, and they'd be correct.
Yet others seem to think if one 440 makes 600rwhp they all should. I made the number with bigger headers, open cutouts, elec. water pump and a ported fast. Does ANYONE in this thread know the cam specs? I haven't seen them.
I spent $20+k and don't make 1000rw or run like stock. That money also covers labor, tuning, etc. Maybe I got a POS., but I'm happy with it.

Blu - I will not waste time responding to any of your questions so get over it. The OP called me last night because of you keyboard warriors and told me he is happy with the car. The only issue at hand is we are missing about 15 rwhp so what is your deal? The car does drive like stock for what is in it. You have to physically try and recreate the situation to make the idle jump, it is not something that happens all the time. Again as far as the price, there are parts on this build that are not listed up top.

Every single post by you in any EnglandGreen thread is something negative.

As far as the track times, the OP has bald tires, maybe he had a bad night, who knows. I know the car is faster than that as I can feel it on the street. I'd put it up again most stock supercharged cars any day of the week.

I'm all ears on your 1000rwhp naturally aspirated car that drives like stock. Let's see that combo.:rolleyes:

Ok, go ahead and spin around the words again...:rolleyes:

ok! If you think a 440 with those parts should only make 560rwhp then so be it, I will just let that be. I guess I am a keyboard warrior because I don't think this setup is even close to being efficient with the quality parts is sporting. Maybe because I have seen with my own eyes and driven cars with 416's and the same topend make 570rwhp SAE, AND put down crazy numbers at the track?

I don't recall being negative in any other EG posts. I have actually dealt with you a few times before you went in partnership with EG and had nothing but good things to say about your prices and the business you ran.


I didn't spin around any words, I simply just said if I spent 20k on a motor and topend it better be able to withstand 1000rwhp and run top notch. Not have tuning issues with timing because something else is not right. I guess the compression being too high will go ignored to the reason why it wont hold timing?

I'm glad the customers happy, thats ALL that matters right?

In sum, I am happy with the car. True, there are a few issues that need to be ironed out, which Jason will work on once I bring the car back to him--namely, the oil pressure light coming on (which hoepfully is only caused by a surging idle--even if it is caused by soemthing else--like the pick-up tube, I have no doubt EG will pull the pan and remedy the situation ASAP.)

As far as timing, yes we did bump it down from 27 or 28 on the high end to 23. Not sure what was causing the car to detonate, and not sure how much power was lost by removing timing.

Finally, there is a tiny problem with intermitant no-starts, which most likely is in the tune. Again, when I bring it back, which should be soon, I'm sure EG will remedy the situation.

As far as numbers are concerened, I know I am using 1 3/4 through stock Ti's. I knew the numbers would be lower because of this.

While my numbers are lower than other 440's running through the Ti's, they are not all that much lower.

In the future, we will play with the combination a little bit to see if we can pick up some extra power. I am thinking about bolting up a 1 7/8 header or a 2 inch header. However, before I do anything else, we will remedy the tiny issues that the car is having.

As for customer support, yes, it did take a while to get the car up and running, but Jason has never refused to take a call and has always been there to take care of me after the car was delivered. :cheers:

Your car is a roach. :lol:

As far as timing, I though cars could run 11.7 to 1 SCR on pump gas. Then compression is bled off with the cam to create a lower DCR, correct?

I am right next door to my engine shop and every 800-1000N/A motor was about 50-75K just for the motor.

RIck

Not trying to be mean, just saying here if this is the case with you three guys especially being who you are. Maybe start looking at some new engine builders.

50-75 k for a 1000hp wow... you cant be serious. A typical and i mean typical stroker big block chevy has no problem making a 1000hp with some good gas and compression for roughly $13,500 and this is all n/a where is the other 60 thousand dollars coming from?(and this is having someone else build it for you by the way) If you want to talk forced induction and ls motors only then it is the same case. If you cant buy an f1c or similar type of blower kit for around 7,000 maybe 2,000 on a fuel system if you have someone else do it for you... 8,000 for a long block from almost any engine builder on this forum and we are talking a decent sized motor here (402 and up) and you have 3,000 left over for anything extra you may need to do your build (possibly labor if you dont like doing things on your own).

I agree for $20,000 you better have one hell of a good combo with good driveability or pick a new shop.

Just my opinion by the way :lol:

Congrats on your new set-up. Welcome to the big cube club. Your numbers seem fine to me. Your exhaust is definitely a restriction (more than most think, especially on a 440 + set-up). That and a different cam you would be right at the norm. You also stated it was hot the day when you dynoed the car. All these factors effect your final numbers. If you were locked out of fourth I'm sure your mph is way off also.

Once you get the bugs worked out don't worry about the rest, go have fun with it.:cheers:

Bro-you disturbing the peace again! Hey man might head out your way-any good tracks for T&T down your way?

I thought you were selling that car-can't make up your mind eh bro?

:cheers:

There is a big difference for the LSx crowd versus all the hemi crowds which I am talking about. Also, you will find most people back in the day where still paying 40-60K for big block drag motors making 800+ all motor. Look at companies like Shafiroff and a couple others. Hell, even PSCCA drag guys with blower and turbo motors are paying 20K+ for used motors. The average hemi guys spends 30-40K on a motor.

There is a built motor, then there are RACE BUILT motors.


You can not compare the LSx parts to the older stuff. Too many companies have driven the prices down, and hell, half of the guys doing them out there thats cheap fall apart.


Rick

Arun. You know I never start trouble. I just tell the truth. Some people don't like it or don't understand it. My only purpose in posting in this thread is to try to help the OP get the full potential out of his motor since he asked. Then people get defensive and try to come to each others rescue. I am not pointing fingers. I am just trying to help since I was asked. I am also speaking from fact and experience so I think what I have to say has some validity. If the OP doesn't want me to post any more then I won't. I happen to like Cajundude. He got me some great deals in the past and I was going to buy a turbo kit from him in the future if I kept my car. He has always been excelent on the phone to deal with and very honest with me on my expectations and goals and what it was going to take me to get there. We have two great tracks with in an hour of my house. Give me a call when you get down here. I have taken a deposit on my car and it should be gone some time next week.

To all who misquoted me. I never said 20K, 1000rw NA. I am not slow in the head nor do I have any fantasies. I said 20K on A motor. F1C, TTIX, STS, Fogger, YSI trim. I don't think there are NA motors over 1K, SAM and Joe Hunneycut are probably the closest. Nor do I think a 1,000rw NA car would even be streetable. But there are a ton of FI cars out there making the number and are driven to work. I am sure all of those MOTORS didn't cost 20K+. So subtract the 7-10K for the FI to make your combo and I am still at half the price for your NA motor. I am not trying to attack you as I am being attacked. I am trying to offer the OP suggestions on how to make some more power. One of the things not being discussed so far is the stock 85mm MAF sensor is still on the car. I am willing to bet that thing is pagged at 5,600 and limiting intake flow. Mine was the limiting factor at 540/495rw. Wow, numbers sound familiar. I had to remove it and go SD to see more gains. Something you all might want to explore. Especially a COS, that might help some of the driving issues. Just looking at the graph that cam is in the mid to high 250's. It is all wavy down low and flat till 3,500 or so. Just like over camming a 346. A cam that big probably doesn't like 14.7afr all the time.

Fallen, I run 12.0:1 on the street all day in humid southern 100+* heat with up to 30* total with no issues. Compression isn't the problem. DCR is. I don't think your combo has a DCR issue either. I would bet it isn't over 8.3-4.

Bro-some people can't handle the truth-plain and simple.

:cheers:

All I know is that my prices are about to quadruple now that I know what other people are charging. I think I am going to charge $30,000 for the next 416 I build install and tune since you can get 20K for 550rw.

It sounds to me like your money was well spent. Your car makes the number it should and doesn't seem to have many problems or three shots at the motor. You have an outstanding combo done by an outstanding shop. They guy that built your motor posted in this thread about what a 440 with said parts should make. Sounds to me you got best of all worlds.

There's no doubt that you are getting good numbers for your 416 if that is what you do get. I haven't seen another tuner on this board do that so you must be magic. If you can get stuff that cheap, go for it, but include all the supporting parts that aren't cheap unless you have a better supplier than us. Here are some of the parts on the build, the OP wasn't charged $20K for just a motor.

LS7 440 cid, new GM LS7 block
Callies Compstar 4340 4.1” crankshaft
Callies 6.125” H Beam rods w/ARP 2000 7/16” bolts
Wiseco custom 4.135” forged pistons
NPR stainless chrome rings 1.2 1.2 3mm
Clevite MS 2199 H main bearings
Clevite CB 663 H rod bearings
Durabond cam bearings
ARP main studs
Headgaskets
New Balancer
Front Cover
Valley Cover
Lifter cages
Double Roller Timing set
Windage tray
Oil Pick up screen
LS2 Oil Pan
Fast 90 intake
Port match intake
LS2 throttle body
Adapter harness for LS2 throttle body
Adapter harness for cam sensor relocation
Trick Flow 235 Heads
Melling ported oil pump
LS7 Lifters
Custom Cam
Yella Terra Ultra Light rockers
ARP Head studs
Hardened Pushrods
60 lbs Injectors
Boost-A-Pump
Racetronics Hotwire

Don't forget the fluids, gaskets, installation, and tuning.

BTW, the t-body is a 90. As far as your thoughts on that, my personal twin turbo Vette is still running a stock LS1 MAF and t-body. I haven't put it back on the dyno since I put bigger turbos on but it should be 1000+. It was 800 with the smaller turbos, stock MAF and t-body.

Personally I think the OP got his money's worth regardless if someone else has better dyno numbers or not. It is not just numbers or $$ that matter. It is about value, service, and a good buying experience!
I personally have not had any experience with EG or Jason until a few days ago. He was very responsive, professional, and took time to give me the info I requested. I wouldn't hesitate to give them my business in the future! They are like most of the good shops - too far for me to drive!!! :cheers:

Also included in the final price were a wideband and fuel pressure guage.

Trust me man, I know it all adds up. Especially if you are starting pretty much from scratch which was not mentioned earlier. It sounded like Rich brought you a modded car and you replaced the short block, cam and heads. The people I do work for think they should get a H/C/I job for $3,500 because the hard parts only cost that much. No one ever takes into account all the small stuff not to include labor no matter what your rate is. I do have some outstanding vendor support as well. I don't mark up any thing for the guys that I do work for.

I am honestly not trying to bash you guys or say my motor is better. I really have nothing but good intentions for my posts.

I have a very well sorted out combo that is running 95% off the shelf parts. I have a custom (not secret) cam using LSL lobes and a Vengeance ported 90/90 that any one can buy. My numbers can be repeated by any one who puts the same parts in their car and spend the time tuning it. There is another 416 that is making over 600rw now. But he has many hours customizing every part of his combo to include heads and intake along with running larger headers and no exhaust for his money pulls. I am sure if I pulled my intake track and my exhast I would make in the 590rw range but that is just not realistic for me.

The MAF on a FI car is def not as important as it is on a N/A car. The FI is forcing air past it. Now you just have a measure of restriction. If you motor is seeing 15lbs of boost at the manifold it is going to make the power 15lbs of boost is supposed to make regardless of what is infront of it. That is why most guys leave their LS6 intakes in place. So crank up the boost and have at it. I am willing to bet that if you remove the MAF your boost will go down and you will make more power. Less restriction in the intake track plain and simple. But the NA motor is trying to suck air in and push it out. Intake and exhaust become much more critical. There are no un-natural forces affecting it 1 bar is all it is going to get. Any hinderance in either area will start to hurt power. Once you max out the MAF's capability to flow air that is all the air the motor is going to see. It has been proven on NA motors that even a 10cfm improvement on an intake manifold will yeild outstanding results in power. If the OP gets larger exhast and opens up the intake track I am confident he will see the power every one is expecting out of such a well engineered combo. It is just missing some critical componants.

Good talking with you on the phone Pray, I'm glad you called. I hope I shed some good light for you.:thumbs:

I appreciate you talking to me Jason. It is very hard to tell where people are coming from when reading black and white. Alot of the details get left out when posting up for obvious reasons. For the record. I think the combo is making about what it should for some of the handicaps it has. There is much more to be had with every thing being maximized. You opened my eyes to some things and I hope I provided some insite to my combo and what I have found to work on N/A strokers. I am sure you will get it all figured out. Good luck with it and keep us updated. I think I am always going to be a large cube N/A guy but you just can't make the power that an FI combo can. So I will be intouch in the future.

Brett

His setup is really nice and it does what he wanted and the shop said it would. I think the cam is a little on the wild side. But its not mine and I know he is happy and really thats all that matters. :cheers: