Re: ZR1 Twin Turbo (Rkreigh)
 

As far as the secondary injectors go, I remember an article in which Bob Norwood was explaining the fuel system in a TT Testarossa he built. He discovered that the best combination was smaller primaries with large secondaries. Also, he used a Haltech computer which had an algorithm that brought in the secondary injectors seamlessly. It took all the guesswork out of incorporating the secondaries. I believe this feature is standard on the newest Haltech computers like the E6K and is considerably less expensive than a Motec system.

Re: ZR1 Twin Turbo (Rkreigh)
 

Hey RK, you really got me thinking a lot about this one...Why don't you go to home depot and buy a mig welder and learn how to weld and do it yourself. I have been thinking about doing this myself.

There are plenty of instances where I wished I had a welder and knew how to weld. If you took the time to do this, I'll bet you could save tons in the long run...The welders there are pretty reasonable and it seems like they have got it pretty idiot proof. I learned recently that if you can you want one that can utilize gas to eliminate slag and make a prettier weld.

If you are going to do this it would have to be invaluable. I don't know where you would get the raw materials for the plumbing or the flange for the block, But if you find a source I'll bet its cheap. I don't know how your gonna bend the "down" pipe which will probably be the "UP" pipe if your gonna do a Twin...I like the buick set up much better, One turbo, One intercooler the rest is plumbing, That sounds way more attractive to me where space is a premium.

One other thing I thought I might share is that SAAB has built a turbo car that is a single turbocharger that runs off of one bank of cylinders on a V6!!!!!

I really consider SAAB the turbo experts since most of their cars are turbo, Their ideas are a little wierd but they work really well.

Oh Yeah :chevy

couldn't forget that.

Rick :)

Re: ZR1 Twin Turbo (Rkreigh)
 

If you look at the plenum Lane has the injectors are pointed right at the valves and would be a base for a plenum as would be the TB he is using. One could turn it around and draw the air from the cowl under the wipers which would open up the front for the intercoolers.

Tyler

Re: ZR1 Twin Turbo (Rkreigh)
 

The Motec product is intense and extremely flexible. Consider it to be the "high end" of aftermarket injection systems. Another consideration along those lines would be the "Superfueler" from Carroll Supercharging. They've got a "brain" that'll control several additional injectors and is fully tuneable based upon boost and rpm in increments of a couple hundred rpm. It's a "standalone" system and works independently of all other ECM electronics. I wouldn't be surprised if Carroll Supercharging has made a prototype or two for the ZR-1.. they've been doing custom superchargers for Vettes for over a decade.. is there a supercharged ZR-1 out there in the world? If there is, these guys have done it.

The nice thing about the Motec, is that you could decide to integrate and replace the factory ECM... they now have options for wideband O2 feedback from what I've heard... almost like artificial intelligence!

The difference in price between the two... you could save $2k or more... but, what the heck, the whole project is gonna cost beyond $20k... so what's another couple grand, right?

Another option instead of porting the existing plenum or manifold for extra injectors is to have a throttle body spacer made that will accept the additional injectors... you could get 4 in there easy. This would save mucho dinero... trust me, custom fuel rails, mods to the manifold/plenum... BIG $$$. A close friend of mine built a 600 plus cubic inch monster big block with SpeedPro injection and had all the injection hardware made to fit. He spent thousands on that aspect alone. I'm pretty sure that 2nd Street Speed did it in Perkasie, Pa. They're also a Motec dealer... Hope this helps. :yesnod:

Re: ZR1 Twin Turbo (EricVonHa)
 

I like fast lanes intake. that way, I could target the injectors the way I want, eliminate the secondary plates, and pick up some serious flow. John Steward (god rest his sould) was working on a custom intake. I saw his LS1 intake in BG last year and it was nice. not cheap at over 2K. hogans cost that much or more too. this will NOT be a budget project any way we go.

the motec is probably a bit too complicated for me to program, not sure. I like the idea of having the factory ecm do the part throttle operation and just using the aftermarket computer kick in the secondaries to make the tuning easier. I'm also really going to consider just going with larger secondaries and the factory ECM. it might just work, but with wideband 02 is VERY appealing. I've been trying to see if that logic could be adapted to a factory ecm on the buicks I tinker with and it doesn;t seem to be feasible.

OK guys, but my DRM 90 ZR1 so I can marshall the funds to get started here. the car goes on ebay this week if there are no nibbles.

keep the ideas coming. the "corporate" intelligence of this group is substantial. if we come up with enough ideas, we might just pull this off without increasing the nationall debt too much.

:D

Re: ZR1 Twin Turbo (Rkreigh)
 

Do you really want to fabricate a new intake manifold? Everyone else that has done a TT LT-5 has done so with a original manifold. It seems like a unneccessary expense.

Re: ZR1 Twin Turbo (RatRacer)
 

I agree with Cam, once you start changing that much, the car will lose alot of its distinction as a ZR1.

No flame intended.

Re: ZR1 Twin Turbo (8388)
 

So does a loss of second gear.

Re: ZR1 Twin Turbo (8388)
 

I guess you could say what Sammy Hagar says...

I can't get my car outa second gear!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: ZR1 Twin Turbo (5.7 Liter)
 

Take it back to the kill section Jim. This is off topic here.

Re: ZR1 Twin Turbo (RatRacer)
 

welding up the high quality stainless steel piple is a bit beyond my skills.

I do have some folks that are great welders and will help out though. always looking for more. fyi, kooks charges around 6K for turbo headers, a bit much, but the materials are VERY expensive and lots of trial and error is needed to get the fit just right.

a top notch fabricator WILL be hired for the prototype for this stuff.

I'm planning on trying to use long tube headers (or 93 exh manifolds) put a simple flange and brace strap on it, and tuck the turbos up underneath the car like LPE does, with a waste gate on each side. that way, the hard part of the "header" is already done, and I just have to fabricate a short stiff stainless tube to mount the turbo in the correct position, and we can take advantage of already existing components. the plumbing and fabrication is a BIG expense. trying to economize. I would agree that the factory manifold would be ok. I will probably go with a slightly larger primary, and a big 83 lb secondary injector. with a sharp chip tuner, an after market computer might not even be needed which would be another saving. another idea I have is using the long thin spearco intercoolers, and modify them with a "water jacket" made out of alum sheet to allow the intercoolers to snug up above the valve covers. this would keep the plumbing very short, and just require fabrication of a kind of "rams horn" to feed the throttle body and not really require reloacation of a bunch of stuff. feeding air to the turbo inlets will probably still be an issue. the other systems routed plumbing way up front and even cut into the frame rails, not for me. I'm still trying to bring the air inlets up to the back of the hood (with a small air box for the filters) or out towards the "side gills (under the battery) It's tight in there!!!

I may just use some T3 GN turbos. they are very cheap and available lots of low mile turbos from folks that upgraded. they have integral waste gates in the exh knuckle, and even though the are 90 degree and a bit restrictive, these turbos flow enough for 400+ each, and package well. the integral waste gates can have the holes ported out, a bigger flap installed, and work quite well in a dual turbo installation. a twin turbo buick with these is making 1K hp and they spool very well. I only need 800 hp to be happy with this setup. that will be plenty. once sorted out, upgrading the turbos for more flow is pretty ez and I want to start small to be conservative.

I also have heard about a turbo NSX that uses some innovative Aerodyne turbos that have a self contained oil supply (no oil scavanging!!!). they are probably pretty expensive, still doing homework on those.

that will be a big headache for sure. the packaging, plumbing, and tuning will all be headaches.

here's what I have on the table for the engine (project overview)

368 by ZR1 (bill K, short block kit, dished pistons, 8.5 to 1 CR)
oliver rods
JE custom pistons (or those Cerv III mega dollar ones from Jim's buddy)
ported heads/intake
stock ecm for primary, larger secondary injectors
factory manifolds, or SPa, watson headers
stub tube to mount turbos
spearco intercoolers (water/air, radiator in back near spare tire carrier)
or
modified buick GN intercoolers in the nose (lay down radiator for room, this might be a big PITA, not sure yet).

alchy injection from SMC (buick buddy)

FAST wideband SFI computer for controlling secondary injectors.
or
Halltech, motec, EFI, who knows. the import guys have IAC controllers
that would work too. key thing is ease of use, ez to tune, forgiving wide band
02 to catch trouble.

one option that really interests me, use bigger secondary injectors, and reprogram factory ECM (best chip guy and LOTS of dyno time)

need fundage to get started gents. buy my DRM 90!!!

I will have the headers on my 95 soon so we can mock up the factory manifolds to see what type of tube will be needed. I think the factory manifolds are pretty high quality and will hold up to the heat, and have the factory hookups for air, EGR, ect...

I may buy a "mule" 93/5 short block to serve as the sacrificial lamb. I don't think my stock 95 will get anything more than ported heads/intake/inj. anytime soon. car runs too good to blow this one up. it might take more than one try, we are prepared for initial failure, but determined to achieve success in the end which is all that matters to me.

if anyone has a "wounded" engine they want to sell, let me know.
the block must be undamaged.

thanks for any thoughts. I can't sleep just thinking about this project. the gears keep turning.....

keep those opinions coming, they are the seeds of ideas. :yesnod:

Re: ZR1 Twin Turbo (Rkreigh)
 

trying to get a list of vendors together that might help out.
these guys are "pro street, and turbo folks" that are potential to help out with fabrication and tuning. I will consider doing much of the work but am realistic about my skills and tuning expertise. Most of these folks will be tapped for expertise and potentially used as part of the project based on their interest/costs/availability.

here goes. (miscellaneous order, just rambling)

Rad Rides by Troy (did work on Meaneys Car)
kooks (stainless headers, custom fab work)
Cartek (lots of turbo cars)
Turbo People (NY, Job Spetter)
Kenny Duttwieler (Mr Turbo, does buicks, small blocks at 1700!!!)
ATR (do stainless pipes, might do custom stuff)
Vette doctors (calibration, might help with the integration)
PTE (turbos, intercoolers).
Fast Times (computer tuning, lots of FAST tuning expertise)
SGS, Jeal, ZR1, (help with short block, car build)
Greg V. (head porting, manifolds, ect..)
Jack Cotton (mostly buicks, F bodies, good tuner)

I'm sure there are others, wanting to get feedback on who can fabricate with the best, cost as always is an issue. we will probably work with Joe Malo to pull the engine and ship parts all over, unless we can find a tuner that is willing to work with us without gouging us.

this WILL NOT be a 54K project. I have invested 34,900 in the 95 and that is my mark for a limit.

otherwise, it's a 415 on the jug, and call it a day.

I KNOW this would be the easier approach, and this is a "whos/who" and very incomplete list of folks in this buz, that's why my demented mind is asking for more. I will do LOTS of driving around, asking twice, and homework before we turn the first wrench.

thanks for entertaining my ??s and any feedback.

gotta keep this post at the top somehow, huh?!?!?! :jester :blueangel: :lol: :yesnod:

Re: ZR1 Twin Turbo (Rkreigh)
 

Since you want to keep it at the top, Do you like my one turbo, one intercooler idea or not? I'll bet it would be a lot cheaper and easier for the same result.

I was thinking you could plumb it pretty easy uner the car where the two pipes come together. No custom headers would be needed at all.

Just one big monster turbo pipe in and out. I mean your a GN guy, you know it works. Getting it to spool might be a problem due to the LENGTH of the plumbing, but your never gonna hook up anyway with the hp and torque your gonna make, It would make the noise your looking for and give you all the boost you could ever want at the top end. And last but not least you will have turboed a LT5 as a hacker mechanic. Those are pretty big bragging rights if you pull it off. You keep saying you want to be different. The TWIN has already been done as well. Work Smarter, not Harder. Thats my take.

Boostamuv Ron :cheers:

Rick :chevy

Re: ZR1 Twin Turbo (threestar40)
 

yes, a single turbo concept works VERY well for a race car, but the twins spool faster, and as strange as it sounds, two little turbos can be cheaper than one big one to flow enough. since the twin turbos have been done, I have better examples to work from. I have a set of watson headers, and will mock up mounting the turbos down low like LPE, or up high like meaney did, which will require "laying down" the radiator, and moving more things around.

either way, this project is going to be expensive a huge PITA, and WORTH IT!!! once you have seen one of these TT ZR1s, you might share my passion. Paul D's car is a beautiful LPE TT car. Hey paul, any chance you might add a couple of more LPE TT cars to the contract???

Norm hasn't run his as far as I know, but once these guys get the launch and driving down, look out. a tt zr1 is a runaway freight train.

even my turbo slut buick feels like a truck hit once the boost comes on. we are running 25 lbs on leaded race gas, and 16-18 on the street. lots of people run even more but they run stage II engines, which aren't cheap either.

kenny duttweiler is the MAN for tuning those. I've seen many of his pro street twin turbo cars make 1500-1700 HP and best of all, racers go all season just changing oil, valve springs, and plugs. they are WAY lower maintenance than the heavy hitter nitrous cars that change pistons like underwear. not for me.

the buick guys routinely run in the 10s, some in the 9s with street cars (albeit pretty radical), my turbo t should dip into the low 11s, maybe high 10s, but I can't run it that hard yet without a roll bar. but they don't have anything for me on top end. there the ZR1 rules and most races I'm interested in don't end after a 1/4 mile

I'm thinking of keeping the stock 3.45 rear, keep revs to the 7k limit, and grunt the motor to make LOTS of torque which definitely isn't the LT5 strong suit now. Also considering a port nitrous system while the TT project takes shape. saving the cash, doing the homework, and building this car will take me years, and that's OK. it WILL be worth it.

any other thoughts??? (other than u so crazeee) thanks. :jester :crazy: :cool: :D


[Modified by Rkreigh, 6:21 AM 3/28/2002]

Re: ZR1 Twin Turbo (Rkreigh)
 

Ron, you are a glutton for punishment. :jester

Re: ZR1 Twin Turbo (RatRacer)
 

Interesting thread going here. I have some thoughts on what is being said. You mentioned the Aerodyne Turbos - While I'm unaware if they currently offer a size that would be large enough to support a 1/2 of the LT5, they might offer some real advantages to a standard unit. The first would be, as you said, a self-contained oil supply, and second is a variable vane system that should eliminate the need for a wastegate. Being that space is at a premium, the additional up front cost should be well compensated for when it comes time to fabricate the exhaust system. It may even allow use of the '93 up headers

Additionally, it was brought up to bring inlet air in via the gills as was done on the Sledgehammer. The concerns being that although it was relatively easy to move the battery, the HVAC system was an issue.

A point to remember is that the A/C system was laid out back in 1982, before the widespread use of the newer compact units like those used in the street rod market. Although I haven't spent any time under the dash of a '90-up C4 to check clearances, moving the evaporator core into the passenger space would certainly free up some real estate.

Last comment - although it would be nice to have the intercoolers at the front of the car, placing them above the cam covers and using hood ducts as was done on the early Callaways would certainly simplify things. Admittedly, the efficiency most likely won't be as good, but then again the money supply isn't endless either.

Later

- J

Re: ZR1 Twin Turbo (JaySS)
 

I thought of converting some spearco "long skinny" intercoolers to an air/water cooler and mount them above the fenders. the flow is pretty good, and that way, a radiator with fan could be used in the rear for heat transfer. I think you are right about the aerodynes. they are pretty small. but if 2 won't work, 4 would. expensive, but a small y pipe and 4 turbos would spool like a banshee. bugatti did this on their monster and it works pretty well!!!

$$$ is on the way, now the engineering has to come together. so many options, so expensive. if I can get paul d to talk to LPE, it would sure be easier to drive to the midwest and call it a day. as I add up the parts/labor costs, I see why they were 54K!!!! a duttweiler twin rocket is about 20K cheaper and it's looking better. I could buy the C4 and covert it cheaper than molesting the LT5. but the twin t lt5 is where my heart is, money is a consideration, but so is the uniqueness. the lt5 will always be the show stopper IMHO> :cool:

Re: ZR1 Twin Turbo (Rkreigh)
 

I looked under the 95 yesterday and sure enough, the factory headers provide a "pretty close" mounting position. after looking at the LPE design, he has the pipes really crammed up in there to hook up the waste gates. I think I can "twist" the turbo, mount the waste gate right on the turbine housing (PTE does this) and then have a straight shot from the waste gates to the exh. or even use the factory buick "90 deg elbow" and a ported flapper style factory waste gate to save space. the buick turbos are dirt cheap and actually work very well. the biggest expense besides the plumbing and tuning is lowering the factory compression. if a 368 is 15K min, it's a big chunk of the cost right there.

here's an observation, the import guys run high compression and boost all the time. they do it with ALCHY!!! I've also looked into M85 fuel (I work at DOT and they have some FFV that run on it). it's been around for a long time, just never gotten popular. it's 15% gas, 85% alchy. doesn't look like it will become widespread anytime soon so here's my thought. my thought is to keep the factory injectors, and use a set of fogger nozzles for alchy injection into the ports. It would require another fuel system and tank, but it would keep the factory computer intact, and I could run 104 unleaded race gas + the alchy, and try to retain the factory 11.1 pistons. I'd use "old school" pills to vary the alchy which is very detonation resistant, and ez to do.

most folks have said "gotta upgrade the rods and pistons" I know this makes sense but after seeing the zr1 rods, and knowing what I do about the mahle pistons, my question is at what HP level are the factory rods good to.

the buick turbos have an OK rod and guys run them up to well over 700 HP with factory rods, pistons, and a cast crank (but it's a grenade with the pin waiting to fall out!!!). the weak link there is the block webbing. rods and pistons survived a 21 hour at 19psi dyno test, not too shabby.

I know this sounds a bit crazy, but the 15k I would invest in a 368 might as well be 24K for a 415 and forget about the whole twin turbo deal. that's what everyone is recommending, just wanting to explore all alternatives before trying something.

the twin turbo jones is still strong, and the 415 certainly is more feasible (no doubt).

the TT LT5s are what gets my blood pumping (just like the boost!!!) thanks for any thoughts, the buzz on this thread was getting stale. :blueangel: :cheers: :crazy:

Re: ZR1 Twin Turbo (Rkreigh)
 

A well-built 368" on the bottle(direct port w/300shot) would probably blow away almost anything out there,Ron. Bunch cheaper,too.

Re: ZR1 Twin Turbo (USAZR1)
 

good point. SGC and many of the other tuners are making some pretty awesome power, and the 15K is much more affordable. the twin turbo is looking like a 30K + deal as a starting point, even with bargain parts. but where there is a will there is a way. another fellow VA ZRoner has a 125K mule (still dynos at 340!!!) that he wants to do the twin t tango. hopefully we can pull it off. I think a port injection 368 is the route I may go until the twin t project bears fruit. thanks for your comments, they really help!!! :yesnod: