That's interesting...I don't know anyone using two catch cans on an LSX engine. I've never experienced a neeed for two but I'll keep the two in-mind for future reference. :thumbs:

I'm not surprised the dealership would say that. FWIW I've used an oiled S&B filter (designed for the Lingenfelter high-flow intake) for 6 years. Even in the dusty Arizona environment and constant track use the oiled filter has worked well. I've never had a MAF problem. I use the S&B filter cleaning and oiling kit and I change out the dirty filter for a fresh filter every so often. I also use a catch can. Again, no MAF issues using an oiled filter.

Odd that GM has experienced issues and you haven't. But then, they have probably seen more cars in their service bays then you have in your garage.

I could ask my neighbor's four year old kid if he's seen any camels walking down the street in front of his house, I bet he would say "no". If I asked that same question of a four year old kid in a ME country, I would bet he would say "yes". Exposure sure makes a difference in reality.

Bottom line for me is that these oiled filters have been around for years and I have had one brand or another (amsoil, k&n, attack, wolf technologies/JDM) in every car and truck that I have owned and have never had any issues with MAF clogging or anything else, as a matter in fact the dealer actually stole a k&n out of my pops maxima and probably used it in his own car. You dont have to buy one and put it in your car if you dont want to or if you feeel they dont do anything. JMO
I do believe that k&n have submitted test results compared to stock filters and the CFM's are way beyond stock.

:iagree:

Oiled filters work only if they are properly oiled. Its not just the electronics but if you over oil, the filter will not flow as well and offer little performance benifit. If you under oil, engine damaging dust gets in.

I would rather over oil and be on the safe side. A dyno should be able to tell you if you are moving in the right direction power wise and you will know if the MAF gets oil on it. Cleaning it is simple.

Oil on the MAF sensor ...

That's why I bought an "Airaid" CAI with the washable, but non-oiled "SynthaMax" filter.

Reasonably priced at $270 when I bought mine.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/417T0UZcwiL.jpg
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/l...hcloseup-1.jpg

OEM has incredible air flow and very clean, I think the aftermarket are garbage, to get any more flow than stock just gives you more dirt in the engine, may not show up until mileage is up.
Check the research, have not seen results that one adds more hp over stock, maybe 1-3 hp but at the expense of dirt.
NO free lunch here.

If it clogs up with too much dirt, ill sell her buy a new one, then put in another oiled filter in it. Like I said, never had an issue. If oiled correctly, no issues. But again thats my opinion. If you dont like em dont use em. And no one is saying that the Donaldson is bad.

If i was going to keep my car for a long time as a collector car or weekend car i would want it to last. Bought this car to have fun with it. Doing mods and messing with the car is great fun plus it gets you out of the house.

:iagree: This all you really need to know. Save your money and do your engine a favor.

:iagree: All Aftermarket CAI and Supercharger filters are oiled.
Too many Chicken littles on here crying about oil filters. Dont like'm don't use them. Pretty simple. But it doesn't mean there bad or hurt anything.

I agree when reffering to the factory LS3/LS7 air intake and filters. On the LS2 the air intake system can be improved. Dyno tests have confirmed there is power to be had when switching to a basic intake system with a conical oiled air filter.

As far as filtration that is debatable. It is tough to beat tthe factory filters. If there is reduced filtration with oiled filters is one debate, the other would be even if there is, does that reduction actually harm the engine.

Yes They have & K&N will guarantee it.:thumbs:

If there is reduced filtration with oiled filters is one debate, the other would be even if there is, does that reduction actually harm the engine.

Reduced air filtration performance with oiled filters is a given to anyone with any technical knowledge about filter design. So that leaves most people here out of the discussion.

Think about it. Auto manufacturers had air filters way before they had oil filters. I wonder why?

If GM used a filter you could clean yourself think how much money they would loose in sales. Any properly serviced filter does the job it is intended for. Any aftermarket intake system can use any filter they want as they are custom made to there application, there must be some reason behind this decision. I take a shop-vac to mine after I oil it to get anything "extra" off and never had a MAF issue. And I also choose not to drive in dirty, dusty conditions regardless. :cheers:

There are many TSBs out for MAF problems. Below was first one I found and is one fairly recently from Ford. If you read the "action" section, you'll see it says oil is potential cause of MAF problems, and you can read what might happen to your car if the MAF is contaminated.

I personally stopped using K&N oil wetted foam filters about five years ago now when I took off my K&N, put in a paper filter and gained 2 hp on a dyno on back to back runs. Given the dyno variance, not enough to claim that oil wetted foam filters don't flow as well as a cheap paper filter, but also close enough for me to decide it wasn't worth the potential issues with the MAF and the probability of extra dust getting by the filter and causing more rapid ring wear.

TSB:

TSB 98-23-10 MASS AIR FLOW (MAF) - SENSOR CONTAMINATION - SERVICE TIP

Publication Date: NOVEMBER 10, 1998

FORD: 1990-1997 THUNDERBIRD
1990-1999 MUSTANG, TAURUS SHO
1991-1999 CROWN VICTORIA, ESCORT, TAURUS
1992-1994 TEMPO
1993-1997 PROBE
1995-1999 CONTOUR
LINCOLN-MERCURY: 1990-1997 COUGAR
1991-1999 CONTINENTAL, GRAND MARQUIS, SABLE, TOWN CAR, TRACER
1992-1994 TOPAZ
1993-1998 MARK VIII
1995-1999 MYSTIQUE
LIGHT TRUCK: 1990 BRONCO II
1990-1997 AEROSTAR
1990-1999 RANGER
1991-1999 EXPLORER
1994-1996 BRONCO
1994-1997 F SUPER DUTY, F-250 HD
1994-1999 ECONOLINE, F-150, F-250 LD, F-350
1995-1999 WINDSTAR
1997-1999 EXPEDITION, MOUNTAINEER
1998-1999 NAVIGATOR
1999 F-250 HD, SUPER DUTY F SERIES

ISSUE:
This TSB article is a diagnostic procedure to address vehicles that exhibit lean driveability symptoms, and may or may not have any Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTCs) stored in memory.

ACTION:
Follow the diagnostic procedures described in the following Service Tip. The revised diagnostic procedure is a more accurate means of diagnosing the symptoms.

MAF sensors can get contaminated from a variety of sources: dirt, oil, silicone, spider webs, potting compound from the sensor itself, etc. When a MAF sensor gets contaminated, it skews the transfer function such that the sensor over-estimates air flow at idle (causes the fuel system to go rich), and under-estimates air flow at high air flows (causes fuel system to go lean). This means Long Term Fuel Trims will learn lean (negative) corrections at idle, and learn rich (positive) corrections at higher air flows.

If the vehicle is driven at Wide Open Throttle (WOT) or high loads, the fuel system normally goes open loop rich to provide maximum power. If the MAF sensor is contaminated, the fuel system will actually be lean because of under-estimated air flow. During open loop fuel operation, the vehicle applies Long Term Fuel Trim corrections that have been learned during closed loop operation. These corrections are often lean corrections learned at lower air flows. This combination of under-estimated air flow, and lean fuel trim corrections can result in spark knock/detonation, and lack of power concerns at WOT, and high loads.

One of the indicators for diagnosing this condition is barometric pressure. Barometric pressure (BARO) is inferred by the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) software at part throttle and WOT (there is no actual BARO sensor on MAF-equipped vehicles, except for the 3.8L Supercharged engine). At high air flows, a contaminated MAF sensor will under-estimate air flow coming into the engine, hence the PCM infers that the vehicle is operating at a higher altitude. The BARO reading is stored in Keep Alive Memory (KAM) after it is updated. Other indicators are Long Term Fuel Trim, and MAF voltage at idle.

NOTE: THE FOLLOWING PROCEDURE MAY ALSO BE USED TO DIAGNOSE VEHICLES THAT DO NOT HAVE FUEL SYSTEM/HO2S SENSOR DTCs.

Symptoms:

Lack of Power.
Spark Knock/Detonation.
Buck/Jerk.
Hesitation/Surge on Acceleration.
Malfunction Indicator Lamp (MIL) Illuminated - DTCs P0171, P0172, P0174, P0175 may be stored in memory
OBDII DTCs.

P0171, P0174 (Fuel system lean, Bank 1 or 2).
P0172, P0175 (Fuel system rich, Bank 1 or 2).
P1130, P1131, P1132, (HO2S11 lack of switching, Bank 1).
P1150, P1151, P1152, (HO2S21 lack of switching, Bank 2).
OBDI DTCs

181, 189 (Fuel system lean, Bank 1 or 2).
179, 188 (Fuel system rich, Bank 1 or 2).
171, 172, 173 (HO2S11 lack of switching, Bank 1).
175, 176, 177 (HO2S21 lack of switching, Bank 2).
184, 185 (MAF higher/lower than expected).
186, 187 (Injector pulse width higher/lower than expected).
NOTE: DO NOT DISCONNECT THE BATTERY. IT WILL ERASE KEEP ALIVE MEMORY, AND RESET LONG TERM FUEL TRIM, AND BARO TO THEIR STARTING/BASE VALUES. THE BARO PARAMETER IDENTIFICATION DISPLAY (PID) IS USED FOR THIS DIAGNOSTIC PROCEDURE. ALL OBDII APPLICATIONS HAVE THIS PID AVAILABLE. THERE ARE SOME OBDI VEHICLES THAT DO NOT HAVE THE BARO PID, FOR THESE VEHICLES OMIT THE BARO CHECK, AND REFER ONLY TO STEPS 2, 3, AND 4 IN THE DIAGNOSTIC PROCEDURE.

Look at the BARO PID. Refer to the Barometric Pressure Reference Chart in this article. At sea level, BARO should read about 159 Hz (29.91 in. Hg). As a reference, Denver, Colorado at 1524 meters (5000 ft.) altitude should be about 144 Hz (24.88 in. Hg.). Normal learned BARO variability is up to ±6 Hz (±2 in. Hg.). If BARO indicates a higher altitude than you are at (7 or more Hz lower than expected), you may have MAF contamination. If available, Service Bay Diagnostic System (SBDS) has a Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) sensor that can be used as a barometric pressure reference. Use "MAP/BARO" test under "Powertrain," "Testers and Meters." Ignore the hookup screen. Connect GP2 to the reference MAP on the following screen.
NOTE: REMEMBER THAT MOST WEATHER SERVICES REPORT A LOCAL BAROMETRIC PRESSURE THAT HAS BEEN CORRECTED TO SEA LEVEL. THE BARO PID, ON THE OTHER HAND, REPORTS THE ACTUAL BAROMETRIC PRESSURE FOR THE ALTITUDE THE VEHICLE IS BEING OPERATED IN. LOCAL WEATHER CONDITIONS (HIGH AND LOW PRESSURE AREAS) WILL CHANGE THE LOCAL BAROMETRIC PRESSURE BY SEVERAL INCHES OF MERCURY (±3 Hz, ±1 in. Hg.).

NOTE: BARO IS UPDATED ONLY WHEN THE VEHICLE IS AT HIGH THROTTLE OPENINGS. THEREFORE, A VEHICLE WHICH IS DRIVEN DOWN FROM A HIGHER ALTITUDE MAY NOT HAVE HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO UPDATE THE BARO VALUE IN KAM. IF YOU ARE NOT CONFIDENT THAT BARO HAS BEEN UPDATED, PERFORM THREE OR FOUR HEAVY, SUSTAINED ACCELERATIONS AT GREATER THAN HALF-THROTTLE TO ALLOW BARO TO UPDATE.

BAROMETRIC PRESSURE REFERENCE.
Barometric Pressure (in. Hg.) Barometric Pressure (kPa) BARO/MAP PID (Hz) Altitude above sea level (ft)
3.5 11.8 89.3
5 16.9 92.8
10 33.8 104.6
15 50.7 117.0 14,000
20 67.5 129.6 10,000
21 70.9 132.5 9,000
22 74.3 135.4 8,000
23 77.7 138.3 7,000
24 81.1 141.1 6,000
25 84.4 144.0 5,000
26 87.8 146.9 4,000
27 91.2 149.8 3,000
28 94.6 152.8 2,000
29 97.9 155.8 1,000
30 101.3 158.9 0 (sea level)
31 104.7 162.0
31.875 107.7 164.7

On a fully warmed up engine, look at Long Term Fuel Trim at idle, in Neutral, A/C off, (LONGFT1 and/or LONGFT2 PIDs). If it is more negative than -12%, the fuel system has learned lean corrections which may be due to the MAF sensor over-estimating air flow at idle. Note that both Banks 1 and 2 will exhibit negative corrections for 2-bank system. If only one bank of a 2-bank system has negative corrections, the MAF sensor is probably not contaminated.
On a fully warmed up engine, look at MAF voltage at idle, in Neutral, A/C off (MAF V PID). If it's 30% greater than the nominal MAF V voltage listed in the Powertrain Control/Emissions Diagnosis (PC/ED) Diagnostic Value Reference Charts for your vehicle, or greater than 1.1 volts as a rough guide, the MAF sensor is over-estimating air flow at idle.
If at least two of the previous three steps are true, proceed to disconnect the MAF sensor connector. This puts the vehicle into Failure Mode, and Effects Management (FMEM). In FMEM mode, air flow is inferred by using rpm, and throttle position instead of reading the MAF sensor. (In addition, the BARO value is reset to a base/unlearned value.) If the lean driveability symptoms go away, the MAF sensor is probably contaminated, and should be replaced. If the lean driveability symptoms do not go away, go to the PC/ED Service Manual for the appropriate diagnostics.
NOTE: DUE TO INCREASINGLY STRINGENT EMISSION/OBDII REQUIREMENTS, IT IS POSSIBLE FOR SOME VEHICLES WITH MAF SENSOR CONTAMINATION TO SET FUEL SYSTEM DTCs, AND ILLUMINATE THE MIL WITH NO DRIVEABILITY CONCERNS. DISCONNECTING THE MAF ON THESE VEHICLES WILL, THEREFORE, PRODUCE NO IMPROVEMENTS IN DRIVEABILITY. IN THESE CASES, IF THE BARO, LONGFT1, LONGFT2, AND MAF V PIDs INDICATE THAT THE MAF IS CONTAMINATED, PROCEED TO REPLACE THE MAF SENSOR.

After replacing the MAF sensor, disconnect the vehicle battery (5 minutes, minimum) to reset KAM, or on newer vehicles, use the "KAM Reset" feature on the New Generation Star (NGS) Tester, and verify that the lean driveability symptoms are gone.

Other then the Donaldson filter used on the newer corvettes that I beleive is only available through GM***, all the cars/trucks GM has produced has a paper filter. I suggest you go to the dozens of auto parts stores in your town and look at the many different manufacturers of paper filters and then come back and say GM is making tons of money by having paper filter on their cars/trucks. The only people that GM sells replacement paper filters to are the folks that take their GM product to their dealer for servicing.

You had better check all the garages, auto parts stores, fast lube joints, walmart, etc that sell paper filters and then you will see that GM has an extremely low percentage of the replacement paper filter market.

There is no way an intelligent person can make the claim that the reason GM uses a paper filter is so they can capture the replacement paper filter market, excluding everyone else except those that sell oiled cotton gauze filters.


The marketplace says that idea is BS.

***-the Donaldson filter used in the newer Corvettes is good for 50,000 miles. Now take the low number of Corvettes built with the Donaldson filter, and you will see that GM isn't making a fist full of dollars selling replacement Donaldson PowerCore filters. Most C6 owners will only purchase one Donaldson filter in the time they own their C6, and many will never purchase a new Donaldson filter as they will never come close to putting 50,000 miles on their C6.

Thanks rock'n could not agree more

Why do you say ALL aftermarket CAI filters are oiled?

Did you see my post above concerning the "Airaid" CAI with the "SynthaMax" filter element?

Again, it is NOT oiled

Here ... Read it for yourself: http://www.airaid.com/smax.aspx

Really... I wonder if you wouldn't mind contacting Volant and informing them that their TRUE cold air intake for the C6 that has the Donaldson PowerCore filter as an option, is a figment of their imagination. Here, all this time, they thought they were manufacturing a TRUE CAI that did not have an oiled cotton gauze filter element.

You sit them down and straighten them out, dude.

I used oiled air cleaners too, back in the nineteen fifties. Time to get with new technology paper air filters that do not require oiling.