Did you ever damage a student's car?
 

Or are you a student who had an instructor damage your car?

Minor or major?

Care to tell the story?

:cheers:

If I ever drive a students car its at 50% - yea stuff can still happen at 50% which is why its very rare that I will drive one.
I can't write a check for a $3000 car much less a $60,000 car

If you damage a student's car you have no right to be an instructor. Barring mechanical issues of course, but if you're showing a green student the line and you end up driving off track you need to turn in your wings.

Not personally. Worst example I ever saw was at an event sponsored by Ferrari Of Washington at Summit Point about 5 years ago. Instructor was taking a student for a "Learn The Line" session in a new Lambo Muthealago LP 640. Guy lost it in the shute, went nose in and spun 180. That car came in on a hook. Hood, front quarters and one rear quarter were badly mangled. Car had less than 1000 miles on it. Bet it ended up in court !

I'm not an instructor. Been doing HPDE for a while since about '05. I am not fond of the whole let the instructor drive your car thing for that reason. Most instructors I've had have been great and had their heads screwed on straight. Some not so much. I get that the instructors take on a lot by getting in a car with someone they don't know. My hat's off to them so don't start flaming me, but we do experience it the other way occassionally too. Student going for a ride in the instructor's car - priceless. I've learned a ton that way. Instructor driving the student's car? What is the real goal there? To show what the car can do? bad idea since the instructor should not be pushing the student's car anywhere near the limit. Given that, what is really being accomplished? Too many things can happen on track, why create the situation of arguing where to apply blame? Might just be me but I don't get it, and thankfully the groups I run with don't require it. I hear some do.

I've been on the other end of that and while I was a student, had an instructor go off of T10 at Summit Point and back my '96 into that big dirt mound wall thing that is out there. With the ~500hp LT4 hooked through C4 geometry, that car was NOT an easy one to drive. He got on the power too soon and off it went.

It was only cosmetic in that it chunked up the bumper pretty good but nothing too major.

He repeatedly offered to pay whatever it would take to fix it, but I didn't take anything. It was a track car, not a show car so the damage really didn't matter all that much to me.

I have politely refused to let anybody else behind the wheel of my cars since then. As said above, what exactly are you going to gain from it?

Ironically enough, that was the only time I ever hit anything in that car. Go figure.

Now you have gone and done it.. Better knock on wood!

So let me preface this with I've never damaged a students car on track. I have however had an accident in a race car that I was driving, but didnt own. It sucked and I felt terrible, but everyone agreed its part of the gamble with racing cars.

I have also had people ask me to drive their cars at 10/10's to show them some things. I had the rare opportunity of taking out a Nismo 350z at CMP in july. The car had just clicked over its break in on the way to the track and the owner knew me. He asked me to drive the car as if it was for time and I did. By lap 3 I had the car sliding all over the place on the street tires and was showing him the finer arts of slip angles and what not. He was shocked the car could do that. While I was never out of control, I was driving 10/10's.

I've done the same things on other tracks and I think it comes down to 1) driver comfort 2) the track and 3) situation. I'd NEVER drive a lambo at 10/10's because I'm not sure I actually could, lol. An instructor should never do anything risky in a car they dont own, and if they cant define risky, they have no business driving that car.

I have been doing HPDE since last March. I have done 8 events now, none of which required the instructor to drive my car. A few months back an instructor I was assigned had a mechanical issue with his car and was not able to drive the next day. I had ridden with him several times in his car and was very comfortable with his driving. A asked him if he would be interested in borrowing my car for a few sessions so he could salvage some of his weekend. He thanked me and politely declined stating "I can't afford to pay for your car, and nobody should ever drive a car that they can't afford to buy if it is damaged." I actually hadn't thought any thing of the offer, but was sort of relieved when he declined it. I think it keeps things much simpler when everyone drives their own cars.

I seem to remember you taking a shortcut through the grass on Shenandoah in my M3 once. LOL.

But yeah, I agree 100%. Its a decision between two people. It comes down to comfort level between both people. There's no guarantee something isn't going to happen, but if you had no stomach for taking risks you wouldn't be on track, but not everyone at the track is willing to let someone else risk damaging their car.

Like Spaze, I've driven students cars close to 100%. In fact, I bought my first Z06 as a direct result of driving a students car at about 90-95%, sliding it around (trailbraking and throttle steering, not really drifting per se) and having a blast! But I never went past my comfort level, I always had an "exit plan", and never had a moment out of control. And every time the student was thrilled for the ride, and a lot more confident in their car. So far its been win-win. :D

That car's gone. I'm safe. :D

I've been doing HPDE's for about 1.5 yrs. I was fortunate enough to get an instructor who was also a friend/co-worker. I completely trust him. He has driven my car on the track the first time I went out. I would be completely comfortable with letting him drive my car at 10/10ths. He teaches our local instructors, and local race teams have hired him as a driver.

The trust must be bi-directional. Hell, the guy built a RV-6 aircraft, took me for a ride and handed me the stick @ 6000'. :eek:

My policy is that the person who owns the car takes all the risk at an HPDE unless a definite agreement is reached on who suffers loss. I let a friend drive my street Vette at VIR with the understanding any damage was his responsibility knowing he could and would pay if damage occurred --none did and both my street and track cars went home without a scratch. At Road America I let an instructor drive my car and he ran it into the cement wall at Canada Corner totaling the car and sending us to hospital for checkout. Released that night with no agreement to put the risk on him since I knew he couldn't pay anyhow, the loss was mine. My insurance company paid for the car and the hospital bills. There are very, very few people I will let drive my track car now. I still have a mark on my leg to remind me of this policy.

I think that is mostly the case as every club or promoter has all involved sign a waiver that pretty much puts it all on the car owner unless otherwise specified in the waiver. Of course in the event of a MAJOR incident, lawyers get involved, and that bit of paper doesn't really apply.

Thanks all for the stories.

:)

*sigh* that AutoX setup was NOT suited to the track.. AT ALL! it was also in a low risk portion of the track that ended with me parking it in the grass ;)

I still blame your car for that :lol:

Now a short cut would be the 5-8 expressway on main... I've never done it but I've seen it done!:crazy2:

Have never damaged a student's car. Some of the schools I instructed at would suggest to the novice students they let the instructor drive their car the first 3 laps of the first session to show them the line, point out flag stations, etc. I drive at 50% when doing those runs but I had one student who had a newer Mustang say to me after we switched sides that he had never driven the car that fast and was amazed that I didn't even squeal the tires when going around a corner.

Although I didn't think I was driving very fast he was out of his comfort element and if something had happened he could have claimed I was being reckless.

Bill

To each his own, certainly. I too have driven with instructors who were obviously very skilled drivers, much better than me, and I felt comfortable in the passenger seat. I still don't think it matters. Sh!t happens so why put myself into the position of having to argue over fault, especially after signing the standard waiver at the gate. I just don't see the benefit outweighing the risk when there is ample opportunity to go out in an instructor's car.

I completely agree with your point. My case may be unique, I completely trust him and I received an email from my insurance agent last year stating that because HPDE's are not a "timed event" or a race, I am covered. :thumbs:

I will cautiously disagree. Most waivers are between the track owner, the event sponsor and the driver. The waivers do not cover driver vs. driver, or driver vs. instructor.

I have been taught to never ask a student to drive their car. If they ask me to drive their car, I will do it on a case by case basis. If I am completely comfortable in the car, the traffic on track is moderate and the weather is clear, I don't mind driving their car at 60-70%, especially if I think that it will help them improve.

:cheers:

Very good point, what an instructor considers taking it ez may have a noob squirming in their seat.


:)